What are your guy's thoughts on Japanese Game Developers on using AI translations?

[Gorse]

because games are developed and consumed mostly by people living in big cities, naturally cosmopolitan places.

Very well put, and I agree 100%. I actually do think there are some advantages to this approach, especially in the tight, cramped quarters of a major Asian metropolitan city — they’re the perfect breeding ground for all those grimy, creepy J-adventure games I love so much (see also: Kowloon’s Walled City) — but after a while, you start to notice a sense of… I guess you’d call it “creative homogeny”. Japanese pop culture in particular has always been extremely trend-based, and, while that’s good if you like those trends, if you don’t, you’re fucked.

Obviously there are exceptions — I’d assume, I can’t really name any off the top of my head — but if you’re looking for a game (or any kind of media) made by a team with a non-metropolitan mindset geared towards non-metropolitan people, your options are pretty limited. This is infinitely more true if you’re looking for media which hasn’t been made by American or Japanese people because, uh, they rule the world culturally. (And because of globalization and the Internet, their entertainment also now dominates all other cultures.)

If you’ll allow me to go off on one for a second, I think this is a big reason why the 2020s, despite turning a half-decade old in a few days, has largely seen a cultural dearth. Theoretically, there’s more opportunity for anyone to make entertainment nowadays, but, really… all the money is still in the big cities (spread exclusively across the USA, China, Korea, and Japan). The majority of the audience is there, too. So everything becomes the same standardized Tolkien-esque fantasy Marvel superhero indie pixel-art Earthbound Metroidvania slop, and that’s what sells across the globe, so it’s what keeps getting made, and the cycle continues.

And, coming full circle, that’s kind of why I don’t like changes in translation. I — and I may be a minority, but I do think there are people who agree — don’t want something otherwise unique to become the same BS again and again, because I don’t like a lot of that BS in the first place. The problem of general creative infertility is something that AI won’t be able to solve, because it is quite literally a machine for regurgitating things other people have already made. So I just want it to translate the friggin’ words.

 

[Another Iori]

The machine translation is the future, while the work for human translators is destined to vanish or to shrink with very few job opportunities available. At this point in our history, it would be completely naïve to think otherwise.

14 years ago Google Translate was truly garbage when it came to translating Japanese, in fact, if the original text came from a normal person, Google’s translation seemed like it came from an individual with cognitive issues, since the translated speech made no understandable sense.

However, this service has greatly improved over the years, although the path is still long for them to walk, because even if the input text is perfect, the final result is highly debatable (ranging from gravely insufficient to almost acceptable and over the years, various parodies have been created based on these particular conditions).

DeepL has an edge over Google Translate, but it is only seemingly free, as there is a character limit for translations each day and this also applies to the API for integrating into other programs, furthermore, one of DeepL's issues is that the product text is not always perfect (sometimes conjunctions, adverbs, and compliments are evaporated for no apparent reason), and it seems not to fully understand certain nuances that aren't objective (it also does not have a complete list of all existing languages like Google is trying to do).

GPT is currently the best available product and it even has a free version: I was really impressed with its translations from Japanese, because with just a little tweaking, they could be used in professional contexts, moreover, it is sometimes perfectly capable of understanding the meaning of things, even if the transcription has spelling errors, because it is able to correct things on its own in the final product and understand the original reference.

My only complaints are that this OpenAI creation seems not to understand that it should not replace the original writer, when the latter makes certain stylistic choices.

In other words, if the original writer chooses to use metaphors or strong words, GPT tries to homogenize everything to make it understandable and sanitized to as many people as possible, therefore I have to correct it every time and ask it to go back to work.

It then behaved like a bastard when I asked it to translate some subtitles I made, because it lied to me by shortening the overall translation and shamelessly manipulating the ending.

I later spoke with it and GPT told me that it has restrictions regarding copyright, but apparently Elon Musk has noticed the problem and has already started funding a variant, so, if this product ever comes out and if it is supported by the public, OpenAI will have to decide whether to catch up or fall behind.

 

[Ikagura]

I'm not pro-AI, I'm anti-bad localisations.

 

[Noon]

I am all the confused.

I get the “it’s cheaper” thing but how would you the audience know if the translation was good/bad if you can’t understand it yourself? And who will make the next improved gens of machine translators if everybody is using machine translators as a crutch? The human translator will get weaker at translating over time, just like getting a machine to lift things for you work out your muscles.

And building and maintaining those machines and systems takes SOOO much time, money, and energy. is it really saving money or will it just be a job swap, adding an extra step in to switch from using human brain to translate to maintaining a machine brain to translate? If they both work well enough, the end result is the same.

What’s great about doing things yourself is that you build all kinds of other skills in the process you might not realize, and also be able to explain yourself to others even when you made a mistake.

Also I’m confused what being woke is? I thought it was hard lefty but haven’t translators been watering down/reversing LGBT stuff or things like it in J-games way more since like the beginning till now? Or is that being poke?

 

[Strategist]

I am all the confused.

I get the “it’s cheaper” thing but how would you the audience know if the translation was good/bad if you can’t understand it yourself? And who will make the next improved gens of machine translators if everybody is using machine translators as a crutch? The human translator will get weaker at translating over time, just like getting a machine to lift things for you work out your muscles.

Yup, it will still require some form of human supervision or interaction. AI is not the solution people think it is. At best, it could simplify some straightforward translations, but any game with complex, literary style text will require the human touch.

Also I’m confused what being woke is? I thought it was hard lefty but haven’t translators been watering down/reversing LGBT stuff or things like it in J-games way more since like the beginning till now? Or is that being poke?

Woke is a nebulous term used to describe anything that a certain segment of the population doesn't like. I've seen it used for games with LGBT characters, pro LGBT messages, games with minorities, games with leftist politics, games with women protagonists, games with ugly or elderly women or games with humor meant for a younger generation. It can be anything you want it to be.

 

[Gorse]

I am all the confused.

Please, allow me! It is a pleasure and a privilege to enlighten you.

I get the “it’s cheaper” thing but how would you the audience know if the translation was good/bad if you can’t understand it yourself?

Audiences are fairly sure that removed content, poorly-written allusions to modern-day American political theatre, and Twitter memes aren’t present in the original versions of these games. There’s no need to speak the language — even a child could see the difference when presented with both versions.

And who will make the next improved gens of machine translators if everybody is using machine translators as a crutch?

The same people who have always innovated with technology — intelligent engineers utilizing a mixture of both their own knowledge/experience and existing resources. See mathematics: innovation increased following the widespread introduction of the calculator, which is essentially a “crutch”.

And building and maintaining those machines and systems takes SOOO much time, money, and energy.

Hey, so does making video games! There’s no arguing morals when it comes to complicated, expensive pieces of consumer technology.

is it really saving money or will it just be a job swap,

The former. You don’t need to pay health insurance for the machine, and they’ll never take a mental health day. They’re pretty quick at this stuff, too.

If they both work well enough, the end result is the same.

They don’t — that’s why this discussion is happening. Human JP-to-EN translators have proven time and time again to be incompetent. Now, a solution has presented itself, so there’s no need to tolerate human error brought about by silly things like emotion.

What’s great about doing things yourself is that you build all kinds of other skills in the process you might not realize,

That’s a lovely sentiment. Unfortunately, though, translators are employed so that their (paying) audiences don’t have to speak the language. Yes, we could all learn Japanese and sing songs together in the forest, but I just want a good video game, thanks.

also be able to explain yourself to others even when you made a mistake.

Ah, excellent! I look forward to every JP-to-EN translator explaining, in detail, why they’ve regularly removed or altered content in many of their games. Of course, being an informed customer, I’ll have the right to point out any inaccuracies or biases in such explanations, publicize them on the internet, and perpetuate a general distrust of poor work. I love democracy.

haven’t translators been watering down/reversing LGBT stuff or things like it in J-games way more since like the beginning till now?

Uh… no? I remember that this might have been a problem like 25 years ago (the only example that comes to mind is those dating girls from Sailor Moon who were changed to cousins in the English dub), but I personally assure you that any modern JP-to-EN translator will more than happily keep all dialogue relating to gender and non-traditional relationship structures intact, if not heightening them far past the original text. (If only they were so dedicated to accuracy in the rest of their job!) If they have been, that’s a very bad thing, too, and you’ll find that both I and the game-playing audience will criticize it.

(For our more left-leaning posters watching this post like a hawk, I strongly encourage you: please do provide as many professional examples of LGBT content being removed from Japanese media translated into English from 2015 to present day as possible! I eagerly await every instance, with sources, you have to hand.)

Woke is a nebulous term used to describe anything that a certain segment of the population doesn't like.

I’ve specifically avoided using the term “woke” because I don’t think simple-minded thought-terminating cliches have any place in discussions like these (or at all), but you, me, and everyone else knows that it means “insufferably left-wing”. I don’t really care what anyone’s politics are, but don’t put yours in the video games (unless you have a nuanced, intelligent approach to discussing them, which you don’t) or people will rightly complain.

Generally speaking, people want good, well-polished games featuring a total lack of preachiness, starring attractive, well-written characters, and created by people who won’t smugly condescend to them. (You could apply that last point to a lot of things… like politics.) Nobody wants to be reminded of the ugly, angry, people we see IRL in their escapist entertainment — we want entertainment. Sometimes, that entertainment is exclusionary! It isn’t fair, but that’s how it is, and that’s how it always will be. That’s human nature! Go woke, go broke.

Also, Strategist, seeing your comment reminded me of something else you wrote in this thread:

Chud is not a political term. It is a generic insult for a dullard that may be used for anyone.

I like that definition a lot!

SECOND ALSO:

games with humor meant for a younger generation.

As a member of that younger generation, and therefore the most informed person to speak on the subject, allow me to state that “humor meant for a younger audience” as written by millennials and above isn’t just bad because it’s “woke” — it’s bad because it SUUUUUUUUUUUCKS!!! Get off social media and read a book every now and again, folks — you’re big cringe, gyatt.

 

[Ikagura]

"humor meant for a younger audience"

I dislike that, if the original text isn't humorous then the translation shouldn't be either.

 

[Bonkers225]

If it means the elimination of injecting some political stance, and unfunny current pop culture jokes, I'm cool with it. Although AI tends to learn from what it sees. "Mama Mia! It's a non-binary! hohoo"

 

[Strategist]

I’ve specifically avoided using the term “woke” because I don’t think simple-minded thought-terminating cliches have any place in discussions like these (or at all), but you, me, and everyone else knows that it means “insufferably left-wing”. I don’t really care what anyone’s politics are, but don’t put yours in the video games (unless you have a nuanced, intelligent approach to discussing them, which you don’t) or people will rightly complain.

I personally think that avoiding personal politics in any creative media is impossible. Your world view informs whatever you write, even if you don't consciously intend to. I do agree that when writing for a general audience, it is preferable to avoid any overt political statements that might alienate a segment of the customer base. Particularly, if the goal of the game is to be escapist media with no other goal than to entertain. But there is no requirement to do so. Having said that, companies would be smart to do it because as Michael Jordan famously said: "Republicans buy Nikes".

And you know me, I never argue in favor of thought termination or cancellation of people with beliefs I don't agree with. I'm from a different generation where liberals and conservatives could have civil conversations with each other.

Generally speaking, people want good, well-polished games featuring a total lack of preachiness, starring attractive, well-written characters, and created by people who won’t smugly condescend to them. (You could apply that last point to a lot of things… like politics.) Nobody wants to be reminded of the ugly, angry, people we see IRL in their escapist entertainment — we want entertainment. Sometimes, that entertainment is exclusionary! It isn’t fair, but that’s how it is, and that’s how it always will be. That’s human nature! Go woke, go broke.

I generally agree with that, but it has been taken too far by certain segments of the social media gaming discourse. Why is it a political statement to have a minority character or female lead in a video game? People were hating on the latest Witcher trailer for including an older Ciri as a lead because she wasn't beautiful enough for some people. And they were calling the game woke for that, which I find ridiculous.

SECOND ALSO:

As a member of that younger generation, and therefore the most informed person to speak on the subject, allow me to state that “humor meant for a younger audience” as written by millennials and above isn’t just bad because it’s “woke” — it’s bad because it SUUUUUUUUUUUCKS!!! Get off social media and read a book every now and again, folks — you’re big cringe, gyatt.

I think that is something we all can agree on.

 

[Gorse]

I personally think that avoiding personal politics in any creative media is impossible

I generally agree — we’re all human beings with our own thoughts and opinions, and those inform what we write (lord knows this applies for me) — but let’s not be preachy, smug, or passive-aggressive about them, s’alright? People who write for modern video games have a lot of trouble with that, because they’re mostly angry nerds who’s minds have been poisoned by the internet.

Michael Jordan famously said: "Republicans buy Nikes".

Smart guy!

Why is it a political statement to have a minority character or female lead in a video game?

It isn’t at all, but it’s a matter of context. No one gets all in a tizzy about a new Metroid game, for example, even though that’s a series staring a woman — but Samus is a well-designed, attractive, interesting character who people want to like. Shaquesha Bop-Gillisford, unattractive, uninteresting biracial star of Dustborn 2: I’m with Her, who fights against the evil villain Tronald Dump, is not someone who people want to like, so they complain about it. They’re fully in their right to do so as consumers.

You, me, and everyone else can name loads of woman- and minority-led games that the larger gaming community likes. (Need I remind everyone that 95% of Japanese games star Asian people?) But those games are well-crafted, interesting, appealing experiences made by people with genuine passion, not evil social media freaks looking to get back at the mean internet bullies.

People were hating on the latest Witcher trailer for including an older Ciri as a lead because she wasn't beautiful enough for some people. And they were calling the game woke for that, which I find ridiculous.

I haven’t seen the trailer, but I can give a simple explanation for this: people hate when they have something good (say, a conventionally-attractive female protagonist), then get it taken away. This applies for a lot of stuff. Don’t do that, developers!

I'm from a different generation where liberals and conservatives could have civil conversations with each other.

I envy you.

But there is no requirement to do so

Certainly not, but remember: the second you get into real-world politics, you open yourself up to criticism from people who disagree with you — even if that criticism is people calling your game a lot of woke garbage. That’s how it is! Nobody gets exempt, even if they think they’re the good guy. (And people who write or translate video games are most certainly not good guys.)

 

[Noon]

I've honesty never seen an ugly person or character before! Sometimes just hearing people taking about boring things on the radio sounds interesting to me too.

To bring it back to AI I guess one of the problems that it still can only be equal to or less than the ability of the people that make it and the audience it's pointed at. But trying to use it as if it's already a completed system leads improper expectations. As long as you control the context you're using it in then even if it does something wrong, you'll at least be in a position to figure out how.

 

[dropsmegamega]

AI may stop mediocre translators of inserting their trendy political stuff, but it will also lead to sanitized translations with extremely similar style inspired by the current writing trend. Because that's what feeds and controls the AI.

 

[Gorse]

AI may stop mediocre translators of inserting their trendy political stuff, but it will also lead to sanitized translations with extremely similar style inspired by the current writing trend.

Even if that’s true — and I don’t think it is, at all, because this stuff gets better by the day — the latter is preferable to the former by a long shot. Accuracy, and the total removal of the translator’s personality from the text, is what I want.

Because that's what feeds and controls the AI.

This simply isn’t true — AI is controlled by all the material fed into it, not just “current writing trends”. Once the AI is properly trained on high-quality, accurate JP translations — they do exist! — it will have no trouble doing the same to video game text. This is what stuff like DeepL and the current iteration of Google Translate already do.

 

[Clippy]

but it has been taken too far by certain segments of the social media gaming discourse. Why is it a political statement to have a minority character or female lead in a video game?

I can answer that from a psychological perspective. For the last decade+ we've seen multiple products, be it games, movies or comic books advertised as having a black or female protag. Trailers and ad campaigns specifically focused on how non-white or non-male or non-straight those products were going to be. The problem is that all of them without fail sucked ass. Shitty characters, shitty story, shitty plot, shitty everything. So people hated it. And here's the crux of the issue - when confronted with proper criticism how did the creators of those flops react? Did they apologize? Did they recognize the shortcomings of what they put out? NO, they called everyone bigots, filthy racists and sexists. People are like Pavlov's dog in many ways and this is one of them. They connected the dots and now whenever they see another black/female/gay centric product they know it's going to be a dumpsterfire. And let's face it, nine times out of ten they're right when it comes to modern media and I'm probably being generous with that estimate.

I'm not gonna lie this is incredibly sad, because you can absolutely tell a great story or make a great game with all kinds of characters and an unusual ethnicity for example can enhance your immersion but the so called liberals just had to go and ruin it. Yes, it wasn't the conservatives for once, they just hated violence and sex and nobody cared that much about their opinion anyway. It's the liberals who screwed it up for all of us.

Just to drive the point home let's look at some games from before having the 'correct' politics mattered. My perennial fave, Diablo - three characters too choose from, a white guy, a chick and a black guy. Do you think I cared about any of that? Nope, I just wanted to slay demons. Tomb Raider - I'd love to see the retards complaining about sexist gamers explain the runaway success that this series was. GTA San Andreas - the best selling PS2 game of all time. Damn, those racists must've had at least a 5 minute sieg heiling session before putting the disc into the drive, surely it couldn't have been that popular because the game was just damn good.

Admittedly, sexuality wasn't really a topic broached in video games simply because it wasn't important outside VNs. I mean, how much would it matter to the plot, lore or your enjoyment of the game to know who Liu Kang is into? That's what I thought. And that's the same way we used to look at ethnicity or sex of the characters we played as before the leftists ruined it. You can no longer make a game with a black woman as a protag without being accused of being 'woke'. Ain't it fucking grand? A truly heartfelt FUCK YOU goes to every person responsible for all-female remakes of venerable series or new entries where the protag was race-swapped. The saddest thing here is that those people knew they couldn't write/create to save their lives and decided to parasitize on good IPs just to get any butts on the cinema seats. Eh, it is what it is I suppose.

*Deep breath* I didn't expect this post to get as long as it did. Just for funsies I pasted it into MS Word and it clocked in at just over the 500 word minimum required for a writer's guild application. If I ever produce another diatribe like this I'll consider applying and writing something silly LOL.

 

[ATenderLad]

@Clippy This whole thing seems more than a little poisoned by electoral politics discourse, assigning "liberals and conservatives" to companies who by and large follow money and couldn't give a shit about anything else. If a focus group says be diverse, they put out a pride logo while committing millions of dollars of wage theft against people of all backgrounds in their company. Also Liu Kang being into Katana absolutely mattered to me as a kid.

This might come off a little acerbic, sorry in advance.

For the last decade+ we've seen multiple products, be it games, movies or comic books advertised as having a black or female protag. Trailers and ad campaigns specifically focused on how non-white or non-male or non-straight those products were going to be. The problem is that all of them without fail sucked ass. Shitty characters, shitty story, shitty plot, shitty everything.

What's the source here, "trust me bro"? You know damn well there's excellent games that sold well with gay characters, female protagonists, whatever. Baldur's Gate set the whole industry on fire last year, with an enormous groundswell of attention for it's queer elements and *also*bear fucking. Sweet, sweet bear fucking.

And here's the crux of the issue - when confronted with proper criticism how did the creators of those flops react? Did they apologize? Did they recognize the shortcomings of what they put out? NO, they called everyone bigots, filthy racists and sexists.

Megalopolis didn't make a cent, but I'm not going to march Francis Ford Fucking Coppola down to your porch to give his ass thirty lashings, and ask if made you feel better. (No matter *how* much I want to, what a waste of two hours)

Why would you expect "we sowwy" from products that didn't sell? If my vacuum explodes, yes, a sorry would be nice. If the vacuum isn't popular with other customers, though? Are you a shareholder at these companies? It's an item for sale, don't inject so much of your personal worth and politics into something you bought off a shelf. This is how political operators take advantage of you.


Edit: Obviously I don't have anything against you personally, and this wasn't to discourage you from writing longer pieces in the future. Please do! This is just how I feel about those comments specifically.

 

[Clippy]

This might come off a little acerbic, sorry in advance.

No offense taken, no worries there.

What's the source here, "trust me bro"? You know damn well there's excellent games that sold well with gay characters, female protagonists, whatever. Baldur's Gate set the whole industry on fire last year, with an enormous groundswell of attention for it's queer elements and *also*bear fucking. Sweet, sweet bear fucking.

The source happens to be the sales numbers and steam player counts of pretty much every game that took up the mantle. Your Concords, Dustborns and whatnot, please stop pretending it's not happening. Yes, there are games with gay characters that sell great but did any of them sell as well as they did BECAUSE they had gay characters? If there's anything I want people to take from my post it's that I simply want good games, nothing more, nothing less. If you focus on having gay characters and your story suffers for it then sorry but I'm not interested. Kinda ironic that you mention Baldur's Gate 3 here. I haven't played the game myself but from what I hear every single character is very much into you sexually no matter what you choose to create and I hate that sort of thing. It smacks of lazy writing. How about having actual characters with personalities instead of cardboard cutouts that will throw themselves at you?

Megalopolis didn't make a cent, but I'm not going to march Francis Ford Fucking Coppola down to your porch to give his ass thirty lashings, and ask if made you feel better. (No matter *how* much I want to, what a waste of two hours)

OK, this one is on me and my wording. I get that artistic works get misunderstood and unappreciated sometimes. There's a good reason we have cult classics, works that weren't an immediate success when they came out but slowly wormed their way into the cultural zeitgeist. But can you really say the same about any of the politically charged flops as of late? The point of my little spiel was that the people who make those abominations are shameless and brazen. They never question themselves and their reaction to any criticism is 'fAnS rAcIsT, fAnS sExIsT, fAnS tRaNsPhObIc'. Good luck improving and ever making a good piece of art with that attitude.

 

[ATenderLad]

No offense taken, no worries there.

Good to hear.

The source happens to be the sales numbers and steam player counts of pretty much every game that took up the mantle. Your Concords, Dustborns and whatnot, please stop pretending it's not happening. Yes, there are games with gay characters that sell great but did any of them sell as well as they did BECAUSE they had gay characters? If there's anything I want people to take from my post it's that I simply want good games, nothing more, nothing less. If you focus on having gay characters and your story suffers for it then sorry but I'm not interested. Kinda ironic that you mention Baldur's Gate 3 here. I haven't played the game myself but from what I hear every single character is very much into you sexually no matter what you choose to create and I hate that sort of thing. It smacks of lazy writing. How about having actual characters with personalities instead of cardboard cutouts that will throw themselves at you?

I don't really think it makes any sense to say "sales numbers" and then respond to Baldur's Gate by saying "I haven't played it but I bet it isn't good." What does that have to do with it's sales numbers?

I haven't heard of Dustborn, Wikipedia says it's some recent small release, but Corcord clearly failed by charging for a genre that players except for free. They put out a demo, confirming "Yup, that's another Overwatch" with nothing new to offer, and charged for it up front.

(I respected the sale strategy that they wouldn't nickle and dime people down the road with microtransations, but it's like JCPenney's "fair and square" pricing a decade or so ago. It's a nice idea, seems honest, but that's not what moves units.)

Why pretend that people were going to pay for a game they already have for *free*, and it was just the woke marketing that scared them off?

OK, this one is on me and my wording. I get that artistic works get misunderstood and unappreciated sometimes. There's a good reason we have cult classics, works that weren't an immediate success when they came out but slowly wormed their way into the cultural zeitgeist. But can you really say the same about any of the politically charged flops as of late? The point of my little spiel was that the people who make those abominations are shameless and brazen. They never question themselves and their reaction to any criticism is 'fAnS rAcIsT, fAnS sExIsT, fAnS tRaNsPhObIc'. Good luck improving and ever making a good piece of art with that attitude.

Sorry, but I don't think we're talking about the same thing. That sentence was addressing the notion that anyone should get an apology for a product failing. Things are made, sold for profit, end of transaction. The audience isn't *owed* something.

 

[Strategist]

@Clippy This whole thing seems more than a little poisoned by electoral politics discourse, assigning "liberals and conservatives" to companies who by and large follow money and couldn't give a shit about anything else. If a focus group says be diverse, they put out a pride logo while committing millions of dollars of wage theft against people of all backgrounds in their company. Also Liu Kang being into Katana absolutely mattered to me as a kid.

That's what I'm saying. Why are we blaming liberals for what corporations chose to do? Never heard a single liberal politician campaign in favor of video games with gay characters. Well, at least in my country/territory. Maybe such politicians exist in the United States? I don't know. The politicizing of this issue seems ridiculous to me.

 

[RageBurner]

That's what I'm saying. Why are we blaming liberals for what corporations chose to do? Never heard a single liberal politician campaign in favor of video games with gay characters. Well, at least in my country/territory. Maybe such politicians exist in the United States? I don't know. The politicizing of this issue seems ridiculous to me.

A big part of this whole problem is that EVERYTHING is politicized these days, games included and they have been for a long time (though often in a negative light, in the past; some no name senator trying to get extra points with the media or a misguided representative of a certain game company... remember Night Trap?... yeah).

Flashing forward a bit more, games have become a far more influential medium than most realize or are willing to admit, and that, by itself is both a blessing and a curse. As such, both sides of whatever argument is in vogue at the moment will use games to validate whatever point they are trying to make.

Games nowadays have biases, agendas, plans and intents that go well beyond they used to, and in my opinion, also far beyond what is often reasonable, in some extreme cases.

A very clear example of this systemic effect (I wanted to make a System Shock joke, oh well), is the overall reception to Dustborn. It's not a can of worms I'm willing to open here, but look it up.

 

[dropsmegamega]

That's what I'm saying. Why are we blaming liberals for what corporations chose to do? Never heard a single liberal politician campaign in favor of video games with gay characters. Well, at least in my country/territory. Maybe such politicians exist in the United States? I don't know. The politicizing of this issue seems ridiculous to me.

Politics is more than simply some politician making a campaign though. Public pressure can do wonders even if its only a vocal minority. At what point you can separate company from public? When Youtube started to demonetize every user they found problematic it was because there was first huge pressure. It doesn't matter if deep down Youtube is only worried about losing the money from ads, it already becomes a political issue because everything is connected.

Though considering half of the ninty vs palworld thread got nuked I am not even sure we should be talking about this.

 

[Strategist]

Politics is more than simply some politician making a campaign though. Public pressure can do wonders even if its only a vocal minority. At what point you can separate company from public? When Youtube started to demonetize every user they found problematic it was because there was first huge pressure. It doesn't matter if deep down Youtube is only worried about losing the money from ads, it already becomes a political issue because everything is connected.

It becomes a problem, though, when some people start believing certain politicians are going to "get rid of the woke". Then I become suspicious of this whole issue being used to manipulate gamers into a certain agenda.

Though considering half of the ninty vs palworld thread got nuked I am not even sure we should be talking about this.

Well, it is already too late. We went too far in the deep end with this one. It is impossible to talk about this without veering into politics. If the mods decide to nuke this topic, that's ok.

 

[Clippy]

I don't really think it makes any sense to say "sales numbers" and then respond to Baldur's Gate by saying "I haven't played it but I bet it isn't good." What does that have to do with it's sales numbers?

I haven't heard of Dustborn, Wikipedia says it's some recent small release, but Corcord clearly failed by charging for a genre that players except for free. They put out a demo, confirming "Yup, that's another Overwatch" with nothing new to offer, and charged for it up front.

Hey now, that's not quite what I said. All I said is that I heard it has what I'd characterize as bad writing. Whether or not that's true I'd have to see for myself but even if it does suffer from bad writing then clearly it must have other things going for it seeing how many people enjoy it. Good, more power to them. I want to give it a go one day but I'm not gonna lie, I gave up on keeping track of my backlog a long time ago and I already have some heavy hitters on there like Kingdom Come Deliverance, Cyberpunk 2077 and Red Dead Redemption 2 (yeah, the situation is that bad) so it's gonna be a while before that happens.

If you're looking for more high profile failures that clearly had nothing going for them and became a laughing stock then there are plenty like Forspoken or the latest Dragon Age. The former killed its own studio and the latter gave us the meme of people identifying as non-buynary.

Sorry, but I don't think we're talking about the same thing. That sentence was addressing the notion that anyone should get an apology for a product failing. Things are made, sold for profit, end of transaction. The audience isn't *owed* something.

I can see where you're coming from in that video game publishers are not our friends and we only have ourselves to blame when we buy their crap, especially if we have good reason to suspect their product to be crap. However, while not a trend, we have seen apologies for really bad products that shat on the legacy of their IPs. That one lame season of Haruhi Suzumiya and Dragon Ball Evolution come to mind. Another angle is that, well, if you're a publisher and you want my money then you actually *do* owe me a good game. You don't get to preach at me and then blame me for your sermon disguised as a video game failing. If I wanted a sermon I'd visit a church. I don't really want to get into a tit-for-tat over semantics here.

A big part of this whole problem is that EVERYTHING is politicized these days, games included and they have been for a long time (though often in a negative light, in the past; some no name senator trying to get extra points with the media or a misguided representative of a certain game company... remember Night Trap?... yeah).

It was ya boi, Joe Lieberman. A bit before my time so the only reason I remember his name is because the guys who made Postal kept ripping on him for years. I feel like Jack Thompson would be a more relevant example seeing as he pretty much was the conservative Anita Sarkeesian, except he could be reasoned with.

A very clear example of this systemic effect (I wanted to make a System Shock joke, oh well), is the overall reception to Dustborn. It's not a can of worms I'm willing to open here, but look it up.

The most interesting example in all of this is Hogwart's Legacy imo. The game had many woke traits but it became a best-seller because of how hard leftists were seething at J.K Rowling so everyone went out of their way to buy it just to spite them. That might be the takeaway here, really. People really don't like moral busybodies. We pushed back against conservatives 20-30 years ago, we're pushing back against leftists now.

Alright, we've gone and ranted off-topic long enough so let's try and get this train back on its tracks. If western localizers aren't capable of not inserting their politics into Japanese works then I feel that cutting them out and moving to AI is a good move. However, as others have pointed out, human oversight is an absolute must so here's hoping Japan also invests in good English education for some Japanese natives so they can reliably put the finishing touches on any localization. Also, some understanding of western culture will go a long way to make localizing cultural references smoother. While the era of 'just according to keikaku' was fun in its own way I don't think this is gonna fly in this day and age.

 

[Gorse]

Also, some understanding of western culture will go a long way to make localizing cultural references smoother.

I was with you up until this part. I’ll happily be pissed off if they change stuff themselves for the American market, too, because I don’t want an inferior version of the game regardless of who’s making it.

There’s a great example of why this is a bad thing: when they were localizing Detective Conan, the Japanese publishers requested a bunch of changes be made to character names and personalities for American audiences. This had the effect of A) immediately killing off one of Japan’s then-most popular anime series in the West and B) completely fucking over the manga, which was forced to continue using Americanized names for characters in story arcs where they didn’t make sense (leading to situations where you have a character named “Jimmy” speaking to an elderly Japanese man about why he doesn’t like eating western food).

Remember how the Japanese developers wanted to give Sonic fangs and a human girlfriend for American audiences, too? Believe it or not, sometimes they’re not good at translating this stuff, either!

While the era of 'just according to keikaku' was fun in its own way I don't think this is gonna fly in this day and age.

The solution to this “problem” is in the very screenshot that meme is sourced from — “keikaku” means “plan”! Just translate it accurately and don’t change anything, for god’s sake — I have no idea why this seems like such an ordeal.

 

[Yousef]

I was with you up until this part. I’ll happily be pissed off if they change stuff themselves for the American market, too, because I don’t want an inferior version of the game regardless of who’s making it.

There’s a great example of why this is a bad thing, too: when they were localizing Detective Conan, the Japanese publishers requested a bunch of changes be made to character names and personalities for American audiences. This had the effect of A) immediately killing off one of Japan’s then-most popular anime series in the West and B) completely fucking over the manga, which was forced to continue using Americanized names for characters in story arcs where they didn’t make sense (leading to situations where you have a character named “Jimmy” speaking to an elderly Japanese man about why he doesn’t like eating western food).



The solution to this “problem” is in the very screenshot that meme is sourced from — “keikaku” means “plan”! Just translate it accurately and don’t change anything, for god’s sake — I have no idea why this seems like such an ordeal.

When I wanna give a smart reply but have zero energy but depend on Gorse to say it for me because I know he’ll post exactly what I’m thinking verbatim.

Works literally every time.

 

[Clippy]

I was with you up until this part. I’ll happily be pissed off if they change stuff themselves for the American market, too, because I don’t want an inferior version of the game regardless of who’s making it.

There’s a great example of why this is a bad thing: when they were localizing Detective Conan, the Japanese publishers requested a bunch of changes be made to character names and personalities for American audiences. This had the effect of A) immediately killing off one of Japan’s then-most popular anime series in the West and B) completely fucking over the manga, which was forced to continue using Americanized names for characters in story arcs where they didn’t make sense (leading to situations where you have a character named “Jimmy” speaking to an elderly Japanese man about why he doesn’t like eating western food).

Remember how the Japanese developers wanted to give Sonic fangs and a human girlfriend for American audiences, too? Believe it or not, sometimes they’re not good at translating this stuff, either!


The solution to this “problem” is in the very screenshot that meme is sourced from — “keikaku” means “plan”! Just translate it accurately and don’t change anything, for god’s sake — I have no idea why this seems like such an ordeal.

Maybe I wasn't clear - I meant things like Pokemon. You know how pokemon names are usually quirky puns? Whoever decided to make up similar puns for them in English instead of just transliterating the Japanese originals is my hero.

I'm with you on other stuff - I don't want to see Jimmy and Timmy running around Edo era Japan because that would make it more relatable to Americans somehow and I most certainly don't want to see onsens replaced with prison shower scenes or whatever is considered acceptable water splashing fun with some perving as a side dish over in the US of A.

When I wanna give a smart reply but have zero energy but depend on Gorse to say it for me because I know he’ll post exactly what I’m thinking verbatim.

He's a smart cookie, isn't he? I love reading his verbose responses.