I'm so glad that the narrative around that game has shifted over the years. People have /finally/ embraced how fun and exciting the OST is and appreciate its unique quirks on level design and general control. There may not be a lot of meat on that game's bones but man oh man what is there is super duper fun!
Sonic R's biggest issue was to be sold like a Mario Kart inspired racing game when it's more like a platform/racer.
I'd also argue that people found the game hard to control because they used up on the pad to advance instead of a face button and refused to use the L and R to manage angles.
On the other hand there aren't enough tracks and unlockable characters which is a big issue imo but getting all medals and Chaos Emeralds in the race is actually more enticing to me.
Dope game! I just wish the Director's Cut existed for the Saturn version because that's always been how I prefer to play the game. Someday I'll give it a shot though!
most of my playtime with the classic games was on that DS collection I forgot the name of and so now whenever I play on emulators that actually get the sound right it weirds me out because I'm so used to the incorrect audio on the DS emulator
most of my playtime with the classic games was on that DS collection I forgot the name of and so now whenever I play on emulators that actually get the sound right it weirds me out because I'm so used to the incorrect audio on the DS emulator
I feel like it had potential for being a 3D platformer for the Saturn if Adventure never came about, but in our timeline it was orignally going to be the next 3D Sonic game, but eventually transitioned into in a dry run for Adventure for the devs. Resulting in the redesign/going to South America, changing everything. Without Jam, Adventure would be a very different game. Thats just my opinion.
Here’s some early prerenders/screenshots/concept art, from Cutting Room Floor. I think this accurately describes your vision had Adventure not been developed on the Dreamcast.
Little text that goes deeper into the development on the Saturn. I never saw these renders before actually, so it's quite interesting! I wonder what could've been if they hadn't switched.
Also I love your ideas for this game, it’s very interesting! I wish there was a thread where we could discuss Sonic Xtreme, probably one of the most fascinating and infamous development histories behind any video game!
anyhwajai, Jeff, I feel you on that potential for a 32-bit Sonic in proper - even if after the fact by some talented independent devs who don't mind the risk of gettin sued o_O I agree with the first reply post also, that it would've altered the course/direction of the series to whatever butterfly effect (or snowball effect) alterations that may or may not have made a huge difference in the long run for the franchise.
I am currently workin on a 2D platformer on GDevelop5 n since it's my 1st time in this kind of thing since a Commodore 64 RPG maker in the 80' - I wouldn't want to implode from over-ambition syndrome so it will remain a 2D plat or possibly metroidvania. 2D plat at the least. but there's templates n tools to do 3D games on this app so I will aim for somethin like that down the line but that may take a few years to un-antiquate to that level of design. this is all just a side note of speculated far-off possibility lol not sure it was even necessary to say all this... -_- hehe
This is just info off the top of my head, It's a long and really detailed development, but I'll give you the abridged and simplified version of the events. Might edit it later. Sega Technical Institute was the American development team at Sega which worked on Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles. Eventually, a project made just under STI was being made, the first proper 3D Sonic game, Sonic Xtreme. Meanwhile in Japan, Yuki Naka was working on NiGHTS Into Dreams, a Saturn game, this is important later. To summarize, big problems were at bay. Office poltics, absolutely dreadful crunch time, disagrements about the Engine and coding, absolute chaos between the devs. It got so bad that two of them almost died of poor health. Xtreme also used a fish-eyed lens effect which was quite disorienting, there has been leaks of it's source code (I believe), but also footage and builds of the game including levels have appeared.
The game was delayed multiple times, it was supposed to tie into a Sonic movie that was supposed to come out (that never got finished). The team at Xtreme begged Yuji Naka for help, having his team work with STI with better technology, but Naka said no. The motive behind this is because they were secretive about their working methods with their games. Project eventually cancelled by higher ups in 1996, dev time started in 1994. Meanwhile, Jam was being made by the NiGHTs team, not STI, in Japan. I probably got a ton of stuff inaccurate, but that's the best summary I can give. Hope it helps! Might post some screenshots.
STI also did Kid Chameleon, Comix Zone, Eternal Champions, n I guess Eternal Champions' sequel on Sega CD? I'm a fan of their work but had no idea they had anything to do with Sonic 3/S&K! thnx for the insight brvh!
Honestly X-Treme looked and felt like a sort of protoype for... some undefinable thing. It felt more like a puzzle platformer than a proper Sonic game, which is not helped by the fisheye lens camera. Even if it did come out, I doubt it would changed the tide any.
When Sonic Jam was released on the Sega Saturn in 1997, it was basically a compilation of the Sonic games from the Genesis/Mega Drive with a fun little 3D world in the mix. If Sonic Jam was a an actual 3D Sonic platformer instead of a compilation, it would help the Saturn boost sales a bit.
I know this is a bit off-topic but I just wanted to share a little anecdote that came to mind when I read the first part of your post.
In 1997 I was 10 years old. I liked Sega games and Sonic the Hedgehog because I had access to 16-bit systems via friends and family whenever I visited them. I even owned a Game Gear with a couple of Sonic games to play on it. But I had no idea the Sega Saturn even existed at that point in my life... In 1997.
The first time I even heard the words "Sega Saturn" was when the movie Independence Day got its home video release in 1997. The VHS had a trailer for the video game that played before the movie. During the trailer, a booming voice proclaims "coming soon to PlayStation and Sega Saturn!" I remember thinking "What's a Sega Saturn?" This didn't make me want to seek out a Saturn at the time; In fact I didn't become truly "Saturn curious" until the early 2000's.
My point is by 1997 the Sega Saturn was done; on life support at best. Games would still come out for it for another year or so but the hardware race was over. The vast majority of gamers (or their parents) had made their choice and they chose the PlayStation or Nintendo 64. Sega itself wasn't doing a great job on advertising and marketing the Saturn either, because a kid like me who liked video games (and Sonic) enough to want to know about these things didn't even know the damn thing existed until it was already too late.
It's a nice thought experiment to think what Sonic Adventure on the Saturn might have looked like if Sega hadn't moved development to the Dreamcast. But it's foolish to pretend that it could have in any way reversed the Saturn's fortunes. Maybe a few thousand extra consoles get sold because of it, but that's a drop in the bucket compared to the gulf in sales between the Saturn and it's nearest major competitor. There is no hypothetical game or "quick fix" you could give to the Saturn to make it compete better against its contemporaries of the time.
There are lots of different reasons people could bring up to explain why Sega's 32-bit console was doomed before it even got started. Its high shelf price, unusual internal architecture, high production cost, poor early SDK tools, fans losing faith in Sega after the CD/32X/GG failures. But maybe the single worst thing that happened to the Saturn was the moment the PlayStation became available. Because unlike the Saturn, it had the right hardware, the right games, the right level of developer support, the right marketing and the right asking price at exactly the right time.
Boom... Headshot.
I know this was all maybe a bit much for this thread but I had to get this out before it disappeared from my brain. The words had to flow before they were lost. ?
Post automatically merged:
Sony's entire early strategy for the PlayStation was all about beating Sega. There was a quote from someone who used to work at Sony Computer Entertainment America at the time. I wish I could remember where I saw it or exactly what they said (it was almost 10 years ago when I read it) but i'm fairly sure it was something like this:
"We didn't think we could take on Nintendo, at least not yet. But we were pretty sure we could take Sega and we did!" -- Unknown ex SCEA employee
I'm sorry I wish I could remember were I read this. :(
tell it like it is, brosephalopod (<-- delirious made-up portmanteau word)
I am a Sega fan since Master System days but I don't live in a fantasy world (well, in some ways, that's anything but the truth >=D ) - I was becoming an adult by the time all this was happening n I have cognitive reasoning issues so 3D gaming was sorta a turnoff - grainy graphics, shitty blocky polygons, bad voice acting, bad control in some cases, etc. - these caveats were all understandable n perhaps necessary building blocks n trial by error perfunctory paces to reach some damn'd good immersive entertainment by the '128-bit' era (consistency-wise - there was plenty of 32/64-bit masterworx, don't get me wrong)
....perhaps it was my affinity for Japanese culture n the pulse I felt of their interests at that time - they, too, seemed unimpressed n uncompelled by 3D gaming at first.... the colorful fantasy worlds with the baroque J-pop or other genres mixed freely as soundtracks for wild creativity abounding in exciting n offbeat directions from inspired dreamers - were fading from USA especially, in favor of the whim of the - plz no one get offended here - lunkheaded fuckin casual 'realism' idiots who ironically played games like the retronuts to get away from the real world - but wanted to play shit that's just altered, controllable scenarios mirroring the same real world they were tryin to escape lol their brains obviously unable to shift to any other paradigm or microcosm. well, to be fair in the end here - some of the realism games were freakin amazing.
I was just smashin on some MvC2 n -Strive- n SF6 n The Rumble Fish 2 for exorbitant lengths of time so my brain is limited on gas so I can't tie up this post nice n neatly with a coherent ending-ribbon hehe but yea I'm down to run some fighters or even run n gun co-op, all that on Steam so just msg me if anyone feel like but if not I won't get butthurt. just like I'm not butthurt about Sega's bumbling but tearjerking exit from the console hustle. or ok I'll always be butthurt about that >=D
I just don't understand how it has not been done already; it is nearly the whole premise behind SB2. The 32xDDK exists for the 'tower of power,' but with modern IDE and AI assistance, I just don't see how there has been so little movement on the Saturn. Also, why is nobody taking advantage of the fact that most of these systems have multiple controller ports to make custom 'modern' control schemes (bash a custom controller to use both ports). The same is true for 'Component Mix.' The 'tower of power' used a method to mix video signals between the systems, effectively creating a hard soft-layer order. There is nothing stopping anybody from combing the awesome force of the 'tower of power' with the Saturn in novel ways (as intended by SEGA). It is the true and only high path to super-perfect-deluxe-premium arcade paradise. I mean... It is free realestate.
I like the classic Sonic games, mostly, but nowadays I don't really think I could play their vanilla versions anymore.
I really prefer playing versions like Sonic 1 Forever, Sonic 2 Absolute, and Sonic 3 A.I.R.. Basically decomps with mods and widescreen support. Even spent last afternoon setting them all up on my Retroid. Between those and Sonic Mania on it, I'm very happy with my end result.
After seeing the love and attention that got put into that fan remake of Sonic Triple Trouble, I home someone does the same for Sonic Chaos, that one was always my favorite of the 8-bit Sonic games.
I like the classic Sonic games, mostly, but nowadays I don't really think I could play their vanilla versions anymore.
I really prefer playing versions like Sonic 1 Forever, Sonic 2 Absolute, and Sonic 3 A.I.R.. Basically decomps with mods and widescreen support. Even spent last afternoon setting them all up on my Retroid. Between those and Sonic Mania on it, I'm very happy with my end result.
After seeing the love and attention that got put into that fan remake of Sonic Triple Trouble, I home someone does the same for Sonic Chaos, that one was always my favorite of the 8-bit Sonic games.
I still think to this day that Sonic 1 should've given a way to continue where you're left.
Sure, the game is short but this is why score exists. Sonic 2 is considerably longer yet still didn't get any form of saving so even if you get Super Sonic you're condemned to lose him after finishing the last boss.
Wide-screen, Tails with flight and Knuckles are pretty much why they replaced the original Genesis games.
I still think to this day that Sonic 1 should've given a way to continue where you're left.
Sure, the game is short but this is why score exists. Sonic 2 is considerably longer yet still didn't get any form of saving so even if you get Super Sonic you're condemned to lose him after finishing the last boss.
Wide-screen, Tails with flight and Knuckles are pretty much why they replaced the original Genesis games.
Nah sega wanted to compete with nintendo, had they stuck to 2d sonic as well as what the saturn was a beast at (2d games) it's entirely possible that the saturn would have done far better than it did, but sega of america and sega of japan had a tug of war going on at the time and it basically killed the company, ironically the same thing is happening at sony atm.
Nah Sega wanted to compete with Nintendo, had they stuck to 2d sonic as well (as what the Saturn was a beast at 2D games) it's entirely possible that the Saturn would have done far better than it did, but Sega of America and Sega of Japan had a tug of war going on at the time and it basically killed the company, ironically the same thing is happening at Sony atm.
I'm sorry but I don't fully get what this had to do with what I said about continues in Sonic games.
And sorry for breaking it for you but in an era where 3D came in and was the newest fad making a 2D game, as beautiful and smooth as it could be, would be shooting in their own foot.
Mario 64 and Crash Bandicoot would've been the most played games while a 2D one would've been good but people would've asked for a proper 3D entry.
And to be perfectly honest X-treme didn't look that good either because of the fisheye and gameplay.
PS: Yes, Donkey Kong Country and Yoshi's Island existed but they were also impressive games for the SNES (which was still an impressive console). The Genesis had Ristar but it was also a niche game.
I'm sorry but I don't fully get what this had to do with what I said about continues in Sonic games.
And sorry for breaking it for you but in an era where 3D came in and was the newest fad making a 2D game, as beautiful and smooth as it could be, would be shooting in their own foot.
Mario 64 and Crash Bandicoot would've been the most played games while a 2D one would've been good but people would've asked for a proper 3D entry.
And to be perfectly honest X-treme didn't look that good either because of the fisheye and gameplay.
PS: Yes, Donkey Kong Country and Yoshi's Island existed but they were also impressive games for the SNES (which was still an impressive console). The Genesis had Ristar but it was also a niche game.
I quoted you on why sonic shifted to 3d and was saying the shift was due to chasing the 3d trend, not due to anything in sonic 3& knuckles.
As for 2d vs 3d i disagree, 2d was still massively popular at the time and did sell well still, while i don't think that sega should not have made any 3d games, their reliance on 3d is what weakened them as the saturn was a 2d powerhouse, not a 3d one.
There is no reason sega couldn't have had a team working on a 2d sonic while working on a 3d game in the background, what they did was devoted tons of resources to sonic x-treme and and other 3d projects and ended up with only sonic R on the saturn.
Fads do not really work for success in gaming in general as eventually fads fade, or for that matter the success of symphony of the night, my point is that sega went too hard into the 3d space and ironically what kept them afloat in the saturn era was 2d and 2.5d games, mostly in japan because like sony, sega had a tendency to ignore 2d games being released in the west in the early years of the era (sony still has a problem with this occasionally, like their stance on "cutesy or animeish" games in the ps3 era).
I consider that SotN was the exception on the PSX.
Sony in the west pushed much more 3D than in Japan I think.
The Sega Saturn couldn't have survived because it lacked many third party masterpieces (same with Nintendo that only got saved by Rare along masterful Nintendo EAD games).
I disagree that the sega saturn was doomed to fail, what eventually killed saturn was sega itself and it's infighting between the 2 branches that they'd never recover from, the saturn did much better in japan than in the us because of it's strong 2.5 and 2d catelogue, but the reluctance in the early years of the saturn to port them to the us is what i think finally killed the saturn.
Now don't get me wrong, sega wouldn't beat sony in the 32 bit era, that was lightening in a bottle, but they would have likely done ok, probably on par with the gamecube in sales (vs ps2 i mean) instead of the disaster that the saturn eventually became.
Wow, 2027? Isn't that way too much of a gap!? That's over two years from now, and it'll be three from when the third movie came out! The first three movies all came out within a span of four years... I can't imagine what's going to take this one so long. It's just gonna be about Metal Sonic, right?
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