Hot takes

[newageretrohippie]

The original trilogy of games are definitely less realized as 3D platformers when compared to stuff like Mario 64, but is a lack of direct camera control and linear levels really enough to disqualify? Both the X and Z axis do matter and you're moving side to side as well as up and down. Maybe 2.5D is a more apt descriptor, just like the person you're replying to said. What is it lacking to be called a true 3D platformer aside from camera control and more open levels, or are those just super central to what you think a 3D platformer needs to be?

that's a good question.. i feel like "2.5D" was a term used by gaming magazines at the time (i read a lot of them, nintendo power, gamepro, gamefan, EGM and EGM 2 so i cant remember where i originally saw that term...)

i feel like it was used to describe a variety of games which were 3D, but most of the action took place on two axes (which didnt necessarily have to be static)... so examples of 2.5D (according to me, at least) would be things like Crash, pandemonium, pacman world, Brave Fencer Musashi, Dark Savior, etc

 

[Somnia]

that's a good question.. i feel like "2.5D" was a term used by gaming magazines at the time (i read a lot of them, nintendo power, gamepro, gamefan, EGM and EGM 2 so i cant remember where i saw that term...)

i feel like it was used to describe a variety of games which were 3D, but most of the action took place on two axes (which didnt necessarily have to be static)... so examples of 2.5D (according to me, at least) would be things like Crash, pandemonium, pacman world, etc

It feels like there's a fundamental difference between stuff like Kirby 64, Pandemonium, Klonoa and Crash or Pac-Man World though, no? You are locked to an axis of horizontal movement in games like Kirby or Klonoa whilst you can move freely around the established play area across all 3 axis in a game like Crash or Pac-Man World. The only real difference on a structural level would be that games like Mario 64 or Spyro have far larger play areas.

So, is the size of the play area a defining feature of something being called a 3D platformer?

I love genre discussion when it gets granular like this. "Do games with loading screens count as open world" and "Does Smash Bros count as a fighting game" are other examples I see brought up.

Post automatically merged: Jan 20, 2025

WHILE WE'RE ON THE SUBJECT: I didn't like Super Paper Mario at all. I thought the visuals and character design were really ugly, the writing, while cute, was waaaay too self-satisfied, and the gameplay was agonizingly boring, especially by the Heaven/Hell chapter. That game asks you to do long, meandering, tedious tasks far too many times for my liking, and a lot of the "level design" is very confused and unfocused. I don't even like most of the music.

Just on a visual level SPM looks so unappealing to me. The idea of perspective changing seems novel, but I can never get over how boring it looks to wanna actually try it out myself.

 

[RageBurner]

I personally classify classic CB as "Lane based 3D platformers" (tm) because it is important to distinguish camera control from the method through which the elements are drawn on screen. Just because the camera is fixed it doesn't make CB less 3D, because we are looking at polygons regardless.

 

[newageretrohippie]

It feels like there's a fundamental difference between stuff like Kirby 64, Pandemonium, Klonoa and Crash or Pac-Man World though, no? You are locked to an axis of horizontal movement in games like Kirby or Klonoa whilst you can move freely around the established play area across all 3 axis in a game like Crash or Pac-Man World. The only real difference on a structural level would be that games like Mario 64 or Spyro have far larger play areas.

So, is the size of the play area a defining feature of something being called a 3D platformer?

I love genre discussion when it gets granular like this. "Do games with loading screens count as open world" and "Does Smash Bros count as a fighting game" are other examples I see brought up.

More good questions, i guess i was saying i have a pretty broad definition of 2.5D and i'm not even sure what it is, exactly... i added a couple other examples (brave fencer musashi, and dark savior)... really gameplay wise i guess i would consider games like zaxxon or viewpoint to be 2.5D... (especially if they were remade with 3D graphics)

or maybe something like Double Dragon Neon, even

i feel like a fully 3D game is one which isnt really constrained in any axis (so mario 64, zelda oot, kya dark lineage)

if you think about it, you cant reallly move freely in all 3 axes in a game like crash... true you can move along each axis but the movement is completely constrained by the viewport.

 

[MasterEn]

if you think about it, you cant really move freely in all 3 axes in a game like crash... true you can move along each axis but the movement is completely constrained by the viewport.

that's probably the best way to describe it. you can move in any direction, but the camera is focused on in one direction.

 

[newageretrohippie]

that's probably the best way to describe it. you can move in any direction, but the camera is focused on in one direction.

I guess if you want to get technical about it, a true 3D game would be one in which quaternions are integral to the gameplay. technically free movement in 3 dimensions requires 4 dimensions to fully describe.

if you only use 3 dimensions to define orientation in 3 dimensional space, it is possible to become "disoriented"

("gimbal lock" is a common term for this; being "high on PCP" is another one)

so to fully describe a 3 dimensional orientation, you need a 4D vector called a quaternion that is (X,Y,Z,R) where R is the rotation about the axis described by the first 3 values.

an easy way to think about it is a rotisserie where you can point your pig or chicken in any direction as it turns, lol (that's how i think of it, anyway)

 

[MasterEn]

I guess if you want to get technical about it, a true 3D game would be one in which quaternions are integral to the gameplay. technically free movement in 3 dimensions requires 4 dimensions to fully describe.

if you only use 3 dimensions to define orientation in 3 dimensional space, it is possible to become "disoriented" ("gimbal lock" is a common term for this, being "high on PCP" is another one)

so to fully describe a 3 dimensional orientation, you need a vector called a quaternion that is (X,Y,Z,R) where R is the rotation about the axis descrbed by the first 3 values.

an easy way to think about it is a rotisserie where you can point your pig or chicken in any direction as it turns, lol (that's how i think of it, anyway)

nah, no need to get technical about it. let's keep it simple.

 

[newageretrohippie]

nah, no need to get technical about it. let's keep it simple.

who gots da PCP?

 

[MasterEn]

who gots da PCP?

i don't, but i'm pretty sure the starman from earthbound does.

 

[newageretrohippie]

i don't, but i'm pretty sure the starman from earthbound does.

My 10th grade science book had a section on PCP, and it described the effects of taking it is that the user "can no longer tell which way is up"

 

[MasterEn]

My 10th grade science book had a section on PCP, and it described the effects of taking it is that the user "can no longer tell which way is up"

my science book didn't cover stuff like that. it was more broad, generic stuff.

 

[RageBurner]

My 10th grade science book had a section on PCP, and it described the effects of taking it is that the user "can no longer tell which way is up"

For times like these, helpful labels are needed.

 

[MasterEn]

For times like these, helpful labels are needed.

he probably grew up in the 70's or 80's when you were taught the good stuff in school. you didn't get anything interesting in the 90's or 00's in school.

 

[tranzittruther]

The gaming industry peaked with Tetris, I've never played a game as addicting. Hours upon hours of endless fun.

 

[miguk]

The gaming industry peaked with Tetris, I've never played a game as addicting. Hours upon hours of endless fun.

You clearly haven't played Vampire Survivors, Holocure, or any of the other games in their genre. Vampire Survivors was made by a guy who designed gambling machines; the gameplay is addictive by design, often even using slot machine tropes in-game. Luckily, he has been careful with the monetization ($3 for the base game on PC, free on mobile, and DLC isn't too expensive). (Holocure is completely free with free updates, btw, if you'd rather not pay for such a game. And it's pretty on level with Vampire Survivors despite still having less characters as of the current version.)

 

[RageBurner]

I'm in the minority, but I don't really like either game. I guess that's a hot take in itself.

 

[newageretrohippie]

he probably grew up in the 70's or 80's when you were taught the good stuff in school. you didn't get anything interesting in the 90's or 00's in school.

Haha, that was actually in 1998... i thought it was pretty hilarious...

even more so when i found out about gimbal lock and quaternions... and rotisserie pigs... i guess

(we didnt cover that chapter at all, though, i just thought it was fun to read science textbooks... and they always had cool pictures)

man all this talk about 3D graphics is making me hungry

 

[MasterEn]

Haha, that was actually in 1998... i thought it was pretty hilarious...

even more so when i found out about gimbal lock and quaternions... and rotisserie pigs... i guess

(we didnt cover that chapter at all, though, i just thought it was fun to read science textbooks... and they always had cool pictures)

man all this talk about 3D graphics is making me hungry

I was in 10th grade in about the mid 2000's. i guess they took out all of the cool science books by then.

Post automatically merged: Jan 21, 2025

 

[newageretrohippie]

I was in 10th grade in about the mid 2000's. i guess they took out all of the cool science books by then.

Yeah the book itself could have been from the early 90s. The teacher didnt like it very much because she was a staunch creationist. It was her first year teaching that class, and she was *very* upset that the book referred to "creationist theory" as "intelligent design"... (this was in the south, mind you)

i didnt really care, but just the fact there was a debate about it made me end up reading the book from cover to cover. It was actually very fair and unbiased. There was a whole chapter on drugs, and it was literally the only information they ever gave us on that topic that wasn't completely false propaganda.

...

sorry this is getting waaay off topic, but one of the FUNNIEST things they ever taught us was in 5th grade DARE class (that was a class: Drug Awareness Resistence Education).

We watched this cartoon short film where some anthropomorphic animal children found temporary tatoos on the bus on the way to school. At first, they were gonna apply the tatoos, but then they decided to tell the bus driver instead...

it's a good thing too, because it turned out that some older kids had laced the temporary tatoos with LSD and planted them on the bus in order to get the younger kids addicted!!! Hahaha.

I'm pretty sure that was the first time i ever heard of LSD, but it was the most absurd thing I had ever seen in my life! Like how is a furry bunny or fox or squirell even supposed to *apply* a temporary tatoo?

 

[MasterEn]

Yeah the book itself could have been from the early 90s. The teacher didnt like it very much because she was a staunch creationist. It was her first year teaching that class, and she was *very* upset that the book referred to "creationist theory" as "intelligent design"... (this was in the south, mind you)

i didnt really care, but just the fact there was a debate about it made me end up reading the book from cover to cover. It was actually very fair and unbiased. There was a whole chapter on drugs, and it was literally the only information they ever gave us on that topic that wasn't completely false propaganda.

...

sorry this is getting waaay off topic, but one of the FUNNIEST things they ever taught us was in 5th grade DARE class (that was a class: Drug Awareness Resistence Education).

We watched this cartoon short film where some anthropomorphic animal children found temporary tatoos on the bus on the way to school. At first, they were gonna apply the tatoos, but then they decided to tell the bus driver instead...

it's a good thing too, because it turned out that some older kids had laced the temporary tatoos with LSD and planted them on the bus in order to get the younger kids addicted!!! Hahaha.

I'm pretty sure that was the first time i ever heard of LSD, but it was the most absurd thing I had ever seen in my life! Like how is a furry bunny or fox or squirell even supposed to *apply* a temporary tatoo?

i live in the south too. the textbooks were all boring and generic. nothing really interesting. found some books about space in the library, read all of them. more interesting than any class that i had to take.
i barely remember the dare program. i think they gave out t-shirts to advertise some company that was sponsoring them or something. it was green, that's all i remember about it.
in regards to the question about the temporary tatoos: they would either cut or shave off some fur, or they were wearing fur suits. problem solved.

 

[newageretrohippie]

i live in the south too. the textbooks were all boring and generic. nothing really interesting. found some books about space in the library, read all of them. more interesting than any class that i had to take.
i barely remember the dare program. i think they gave out t-shirts to advertise some company that was sponsoring them or something. it was green, that's all i remember about it.
in regards to the question about the temporary tatoos: they would either cut or shave off some fur, or they were wearing fur suits. problem solved.

Yeah we had DARE class once a week for every year i was in middle school (which is the same amount of time we had art class), and in high school, health class took over the propaganda machine. They told us things like "using marijuana even once would damage our chromosomes/ DNA and kill brain cells"

it was ridiculous. DARE funding got cut at some point.

 

[tranzittruther]

You clearly haven't played Vampire Survivors, Holocure, or any of the other games in their genre. VS was made by a guy who designed gambling machines; the gameplay is addictive by design. Luckily, he has been careful with the monetization ($3 for the base game on PC, free on mobile, and DLC isn't too expensive). (Holocure is completely free, btw, if you'd rather not pay for such a game. And it's pretty on level with Vampire Survivors despite still having less characters as of the current version.)

Those games have to have DLCs, power-up and character-specific mechanics to achieve what the original Tetris could do within less than 1MB

 

[newageretrohippie]

Those games have to have DLCs, power-up and character-specific mechanics to achieve what the original Tetris could do within less than 1MB

You know what was a cool game tho... (speaking of russian games with good emergent gameplay) actually i forget what it was called now.. "gorby lays some pipe.." or something like that

basically you play as Mikail Gorbechev and you are trying to build oil pipelines to the other side of the screen by using random bits of pipe that fall from the sky

oh... i guess it was actually japanese... it was good tho:

 

[MasterEn]

Yeah we had DARE class once a week for every year i was in middle school (which is the same amount of time we had art class), and in high school, health class took over the propaganda machine. They told us things like "using marijuana even once would damage our chromosomes/ DNA and kill brain cells"

it was ridiculous. DARE funding got cut at some point.

i would say probably sometime in the late 90's. i had art classes, but not a single DARE class. i think they merged that stuff into health class, and they were probably more gentle with it. or not, i didn't care much for school, so most of it is a blank for me other than the very mundane repetitive stuff.

 

[Deean]

People hating on SCIII was mostly SC2 players on gamecube who couldn't buy a PS2..