Hot takes

[Lena CE]

This is super interesting to me, because we're the same age, and I truly genuinely feel like I still have plenty of those older kinds of experiences you and @YuriSukiSan talk about. I might be either extremely lucky, or as I said before, just much more inexperienced than I thought, that I still just see the parts I find enjoyable. Or I'm just oblivious to the bad parts, not sure.
In my head "MMORPG" is still this mystifying wild west I heard of when I was a kid, I still get dazzled sometimes when I realize that I'm running around with real people. Of course I'm very much aware of the worse aspects, from design to community to meta to whatever, but I think I've been able to tune them out since forever since I've always played these games like any adventure game, so that sense of exploration sort of never went away, I suppose?

View attachment 12922

I don't think those moments don't exist, just that games used to be designed around interacting with players more while being fostered by communities that were less experienced and in general more starry eyed with console gaming.

The advent of social media, internet guides, twitch and a design shift to content-focused structure prioritizing endgame over creating a more vague "journey" and sense of place have just done a lot to change player mentality. It's like that old quote of "given the opportunity people will optimize the fun out of your game". Communities across all genres have gotten sweatier and with information being more accessible than ever before

This isn't inherently a bad thing nor would I say these parts of the game are "bad parts". They're simply not what I'm personally into. The genre is in some ways more successful than ever, even if we have reached a point of new games being few and far between (inevitable considering the cost of making and maintaining such games). While I'm sad I sort of feel left behind by current player mentality or design trends I wouldn't dare say they're bad or even worse than the alternative, especially when many of the things that have changed over the years have pretty sound reasoning behind them.

A really good video that talks about various aspects of this more eloquently than I ever have been able to is Why It's Rude to Suck at Warcraft by Folding Ideas. It excited me so much when I first watched it because I finally felt an understood, since a lot of the "old MMO good, new MMO bad" discussion was dominated by a lot of bad actors I never fully agreed with and what not.

 

[RageBurner]

Most Nintendo 64 games are really ugly because of the super tiny textures compared to its competitions, which are then stretched and filtered. And on top of that many games have a bilinear filter or something like that over the game itself? Bah it looks like a smuged mess I dont get it, the compressed music on top of that doesnt help

The N64 has a unique algorithm of trilinear filtering. That in itself isn't a problem, the way I see it, as both unfiltered and filtered textures are ugly when you are dealing with extremely low resolutions or untextured primitives (as you pointed out).

 

[Lee__Kanker]

I'm assuming this game is decently popular now because today's 20 year olds grew up with it right?

I've always hated it, its so bland and generic it makes me nauseous. It gives me feeling of "well it's a 3 hour car drive I HAVE to play something or i'll die of boredom....uugh I could only afford this...fine....uugh this is so boriing.."
It's has no interesting new mechanics they bothered bringing back the tail from smb3 but you cant fly so what was the point?? The stages are just so generic it's when I started to notice mario games all looked the damn same now

Take SMB, SMB 2 USA, SMB3 and SMW. They all had thier own artstyle and physics and music and atmosphere and enemies
This is just new mario bros wii again but with slightly different colors and the ground is more blocky

You moooove sooooo slooooow theres no acrobatics and inertia like the other games its so toned down, the enemies are almost only old stuff with tails, the music is forgettable

It's piss easy like most nintendo games from this era, it's a slog

Also the boo stages used to be A LITTLE spooky cmon, they were nothing here

 

[RageBurner]

I'm assuming this game is decently popular now because today's 20 year olds grew up with it right?



View attachment 12930
I've always hated it, its so bland and generic it makes me nauseous. It gives me feeling of "well it's a 3 hour car drive I HAVE to play something or i'll die of boredom....uugh I could only afford this...fine....uugh this is so boriing.."
It's has no interesting new mechanics they bothered bringing back the tail from smb3 but you cant fly so what was the point?? The stages are just so generic it's when I started to notice mario games all looked the damn same now

Take SMB, SMB 2 USA, SMB3 and SMW. They all had thier own artstyle and physics and music and atmosphere and enemies
This is just new mario bros wii again but with slightly different colors and the ground is more blocky

You moooove sooooo slooooow theres no acrobatics and inertia like the other games its so toned down, the enemies are almost only old stuff with tails, the music is forgettable

It's piss easy like most nintendo games from this era, it's a slog

Also the boo stages used to be A LITTLE spooky cmon, they were nothing here

It feels like a tiny diorama version of an actual 3D Mario game. Given the limitations of the system, I think it is fine. It won't replace the console counterparts, but for what it is, I think it's passable. That said, give me 2D Mario any day over any 3D one (same for Sonic).

 

[Lee__Kanker]

The N64 has a unique algorithm of trilinear filtering. That in itself isn't a problem, the way I see it, as both unfiltered and filtered textures are ugly when you are dealing with extremely low resolutions or untextured primitives (as you pointed out).

So it's trilinear filtering, got it; I dont remember ther exact resolution of the textures but I remember seeing they're like less than half the size of the ps1s because of the n64's texture cache or something like that

Some games like Kirby 64 and the Banjo Games and the Mario games mask it well but most games? woof its ugly

 

[Lena CE]

I'm assuming this game is decently popular now because today's 20 year olds grew up with it right?
View attachment 12930

Honestly, both Land and World don't get a lot of love. Even at the time despite the typical rave reviews 3D Mario games get most people walked away feeling like they were pretty uninspired. World was at least fun to co-op in and when it comes to 3D platformers there certainly aren't many 4 player options even today, but in general most people lament how boxy the levels are and how drab the themes and aesthetics tend to be.

They aren't bad games but man oh man they feel uninspired.

 

[RageBurner]

So it's trilinear filtering, got it; I know remember ther exact resolution of the textures but I remember seeing they're like less than half the size of the ps1s because of how the n64's texture cache or something like that

Some games like Kirby 64 and the Banjo Games and the Mario games mask it well but more games? woof its ugly

I had no idea the resolution was so much lower! I guess N's boneheaded adherence to cartridges probably is partially to blame here.

 

[Lee__Kanker]

It feels like a tiny diorama version of an actual 3D Mario game. Given the limitations of the system, I think it is fine. It won't replace the console counterparts, but for what it is, I think it's passable. That said, give me 2D Mario any day over any 3D one (same for Sonic).

Its the artstyle and music and slow pace and lack of difficulty that bothers me, I wish they'd have made something more like Mario 64 now that they finally had that analog stick

 

[RageBurner]

Its the artstyle and music and slow pace and lack of difficulty that bothers me, I wish they'd have made something more like Mario 64 now that they finally had that analog stick

I agree Mario 64 is the golden standard here. For what little I played of the WiiU entries, they were fun, but the levels looked more like a selection of obstacle courses tied to some sort of gimmick than a thematic whole that had coherence, I'm not sure if I'm making sense.

 

[Lee__Kanker]

Honestly, both Land and World don't get a lot of love. Even at the time despite the typical rave reviews 3D Mario games get most people walked away feeling like they were pretty uninspired. World was at least fun to co-op in and when it comes to 3D platformers there certainly aren't many 4 player options even today, but in general most people lament how boxy the levels are and how drab the themes and aesthetics tend to be.

They aren't bad games but man oh man they feel uninspired.

World I liked, a bit slow still and again the bosses were far too easy but it has some memorable music and the co op is fun plus it had unique power ups; I quite liked the double cherry

Also it FINALLY did themes mario hasnt done in ages like the china levels and the space neon levels and it had a fun rainbow road

On top of that I appreciated all the stuff it took from mario 2 usa including the blue toad, and it actually had an unlockable character!

 

[dropsmegamega]

It feels like a tiny diorama version of an actual 3D Mario game. Given the limitations of the system, I think it is fine. It won't replace the console counterparts, but for what it is, I think it's passable. That said, give me 2D Mario any day over any 3D one (same for Sonic).

For real? Early 2D mario was great, but the new super mario bros series are some of the most uninspired nintendo games I can think of

 

[Lee__Kanker]

I had no idea the resolution was so much lower! I guess N's boneheaded adherence to cartridges probably is partially to blame here.

There you go, 32x32 or 64x64 plus a couple more

Colour and image format types for the N64 - N64 Squid

The Nintendo 64 has many image format types and sizes. This tutorial doesn't have any code, but provides an understanding of how texels are formatted.

n64squid.com

The ps1 by comparison usually did 128x128 but could go up to 256x256, it also could have a ton of texture variety, just look at silent hill and metal gear and tomba 2

 

[RageBurner]

There you go, 32x32 or 64x64 plus a couple more

Colour and image format types for the N64 - N64 Squid

The Nintendo 64 has many image format types and sizes. This tutorial doesn't have any code, but provides an understanding of how texels are formatted.

n64squid.com

The ps1 by comparison usually did 128x128 but could go up to 256x256, it also could have a ton of texture variety, just look at silent hill and metal gear and tomba 2

Thank you. If the PS1 had a good filtering algorithm plus a true Z-buffer it could easily have looked the best of all 5th gen consoles across the board.

 

[Lee__Kanker]

For real? Early 2D mario was great, but the new super mario bros series are some of the most uninspired nintendo games I can think of

The very first one has fun ideas, after that it all went downhill

By the time I've heard luigi U had more original levels I never wanted to look at that god forsaken artstyle again

Post automatically merged: Jan 15, 2025

Thank you. If the PS1 had a good filtering algorithm plus a true Z-buffer it could easily have looked the best of all 5th gen consoles across the board.

Personally I like the mosaic textures and the wobble, it's not ps1 without it; but you CAN have bilinear filtering (I think its bilinear) if you play ps1 on ps2, its in the settings

 

[RageBurner]

Personally I like the mosaic textures and its not then ps1 without it, but you CAN have bilinear filtering (I think its bilinear) if you play ps1 on ps2, its in the settings

Yeah, I know what you mean, to an extent the Saturn had similar quirks, just the polygon shape was different. I guess it depends. 3D that gen didn't take kindly to close ups, I guess.

 

[Lee__Kanker]

Just like mario 3d land, its REALLY bland
Its tecnically advanced for the 3ds I wont deny that, it has very complex 3d models it runs well it has a lot of powers and the 3d is done well
But I can't stand it, it's boring, it's just a worse kirby super star
And you can play Ultra Star Deluxe on the same console so why bother?

Good engine, bland ass game

While I'm shitting on a series I really like

I gave it many tries because I Love how it looks and the fusion mechanic, its got some of the best transformations Ive seen from the pink ball and I love 2.5d games like Klonoa. But it's soooo sloooow, it's not that I cant like a platformer if its slow, Klonoa isnt particularly fast and its one of my faves, I really like Yoshi's World and it's not fast. But Kirby (and Mario) I like because they're so snappy

Mario from his very first super game is Exhilerating jumping and running around with that sense of weight and inertia is so much fun and incredible for a base famicom cart with no extra chip
Similarly Kirby was also very agile from the very first game then he even got speed focused power upsd like the tornado and wheel and meteor, and you get the slide movers and the animal buddies. All stuff that enhances his mobility
Even with the souble meteor power up I felt like there was something wrong with the emulator and the game was running at half the framerate

 

[dropsmegamega]

I gave it many tries because I Love how it looks and the fusion mechanic, its got some of the best transformations Ive seen from the pink ball and I love 2.d games like Klonoa. But it's soooo sloooow, it's not that I cant like a platformer if its slow, Klonoa isnt particularly fast and its one of my faves, I really like Yoshi's World and it's not fast. But Kirby (and Mario) I like because they're so snappy

Mario from his very first super game is Exhilerating jumping and running around with that sense of weight and inertia is so much fun and incredible for a base famicom cart with no extra chip
Similarly Kirby was also very agile from the very first game then he even got speed focused power upsd like the tornado and wheel and meteor, and you get the slide movers and the animal buddies. All stuff that enhances his mobility
Even with the souble meteor power up I felt like there was something wrong with the emulator and the game was running at half the framerate

I get what you are saying, but I still love it for trying to do something different and the slowness made me appreciate more all the effort and detail that went into the environments. Too bad we never got the gamecube game that would have mixed elements from both it and superstar.

 

[Lee__Kanker]

I get what you are saying, but I still love it for trying to do something different and the slowness made me appreciate more all the effort and detail that went into the environments. Too bad we never got the gamecube game that would have mixed elements from both it and superstar.

I can see where you're coming from, that gamecue game I would've probably loved, the artstyle looked great too, I def wouldve liked it more than return to dreamland; I dont dislike it but it didnt blow me away either

I did hate fighting that stupid gear boss every time

 

[RageBurner]

I get what you are saying, but I still love it for trying to do something different and the slowness made me appreciate more all the effort and detail that went into the environments. Too bad we never got the gamecube game that would have mixed elements from both it and superstar.

I don't mind, slow, methodical gameplay (heck, I love Monster Hunter) but the controls need to feel tight regardless of speed. That's what a lot of games get wrong, I feel.

 

[Lee__Kanker]

I don't mind, slow, methodical gameplay (heck, I love Monster Hunter) but the controls need to feel tight regardless of speed. That's what a lot of games get wrong, I feel.

I really like the classic biohazard games and they're not fast at all, but learning how to dodge and move and how enemies beheave and what weapons to use when is a lot of fun

The same goes for Siren and Silent Hill (4 Is a bit faster though)

 

[dropsmegamega]

I can see where you're coming from, that gamecue game I would've probably loved, the artstyle looked great too, I def wouldve liked it more than return to dreamland; I dont dislike it but it dint blow me away either

I did hate fighting that stupid gear boss every time

Yeah RtDL was like a fine homage to past games, but didn't really push the series forward and after it they just kept reusing the same engine with very small changes like the new super mario bros series does so I lost interest

Post automatically merged: Jan 16, 2025

I don't mind, slow, methodical gameplay (heck, I love Monster Hunter) but the controls need to feel tight regardless of speed. That's what a lot of games get wrong, I feel.

I'd say there is a clear preference for faster stuff regardless of tight controls nowadays, a platformer like Rayman 1 that starts without the ability to run is actually unthinkable

 

[RageBurner]

Yeah RtDL was like a fine homage to past games, but didn't really push the series forward and after it they just kept reusing the same engine with very small changes like the new super mario bros series does so I lost interest

Post automatically merged: Jan 16, 2025

I'd say there is a clear preference for faster stuff regardless of tight controls nowadays, a platformer like Rayman 1 that starts without the ability to run is actually unthinkable

I get you, and really, even back in the day. I enjoy Shinobi 3 orders of magnitude more than Revenge of Shinobi because mobility is on a different level.

 

[Gorse]

I'm assuming this game is decently popular now because today's 20 year olds grew up with it right?

I got 3D Land right for Christmas that year (at the time, I was 13) and was pretty much instantly disappointed by it. Theoretically, it should be my favourite Mario game ever, because it's closer to the 2D ones (that I did grow up with the GBA ports of), but it's just so fucking BORING and EASY and SLOW. Mario moves like a geriatric tortoise through levels designed by people who clearly just wanted to go on lunch, and – especially these days – completing them all just feels like filling out a government form. If you told me the game was a reskinned licensed platformer based on a Disney movie, I'd believe you.

I really hate how gimped all the power-ups were, too – I could not believe they removed the flight ability from the Tanooki suit! What the F were they on!? That was the whole point of the suit! Nobody cared about the buggering tail whip! Even the little blue shell boomerang power-up was just the most boring thing in existence – it's exactly the same as the fireball, the projectile just doesn't bounce off the ground. It was worse than the one in Super Mario Advance 4 on the GBA – how is that possible!?

My view on 3D World is essentially the same, but I honestly think I liked it even less because of all the collect-a-thon bullshit they make you do. (I hate that in platformers!) I played the game exactly as intended many times, with four friends/siblings all making our way through the game together. During every single session, we'd beat one level, inevitably miss some green star or key or something, someone would say "Want to go back and play that one again?", we'd all groan, and play Nintendo Land instead (which, to this day, is still my favourite game on the console by a long shot).

THAT BEING SAID, not that I've played it, I do think Bowser's Fury looks very cool and I'd love to try it out one day. They should make a whole big-budget Mario game like that, with a strong balance of levels that are both open and directed, and that just lets you fucking use a variety of interesting power-ups again. GET IT TOGETHER, NINTENDO!!!!!

Also, speaking of the 3DS, here's a bloody hot take for everyone: As someone who got the console at launch and was heavily involved in the culture surrounding it, I thought the first year was pretty atrocious. The only games anyone was playing was Super Street Fighter IV (port of a then-three-year-old game) and some Tom Clancy tactics game. Before SM3DL, I personally had only Rayman 3D (a port of a then-thirteen-year-old game) and a somewhat-interesting Tintin movie tie-in that played a bit like the sidescrolling Prince of Persias.

The games that people were hyped for that year included Ocarina of Time 3D (a port of a then-thirteen-year-old game) and Star Fox 64 3D (a port of a then-fourteen-year-old game). They didn't even let you use the eShop until, like, 4 months in! I actually felt really disappointed in the console at first, and spent most of that initial year just playing DS games or the free GBA games they gave you after halving the unit's price. Though it did eventually get some interesting free downloads like Nintendo Video, it wasn't until games like Kid Icarus Uprising and Fire Emblem Awakening came out that I finally felt satisfied with owning one. (And, of course, at the end of the console's life, I loved it.)

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Oh, and one more thing...

This is such an embarrassing mindset and doesn't even approach being tethered to reality. Just hope you figure it out one day, but that seems highly unlikely.

 

[Tonberry]

post

Thanks for your post and the link to that video.
I don't want to call you cynical or even jaded, because I don't think that's accurate based on your opinions on this alone and I don't want to generalize like that. Though I do think that the opinion itself is coming from a more jaded perspective than my own, which of course is totally fine. I'm moreso just trying to illustrate my more "optimistic" point of view coming from someone who always approached the game from the shoe-less gnome angle, and never even really cared about the opinions of other players (I did wear shoes, but not because someone told me to, but because I wanted to wear shoes and to have stats. I was teased by friends who did raid in 7th grade (lol) because I played the game more like Zelda or Oblivion, but I didn't really care because I found value in exploring the game my way.

I suppose I've never been "hit" by the more tryhard players because I've almost never interacted with them. Now, this isn't saying that they don't exist or that the game doesn't cater to them (they cater to everyone nowadays but tryhards will prefer to hang out with tryhards), it's just that I haven't encountered them.
Since I can mostly just speak for WoW, I'm not really sure I agree with the notion that it was ever not "better shoes = better player" aside from like the first year. Romanticizing a bygone time is fine, but I don't think it's correct to say that the game suddenly stopped caring about people playing to explore and interact with others. It evolved with it for better or worse, and invited other playstyles. My guild master on the fresh classic realms is going to play a retribution paladin while raiding because he thinks it's cool, and people who obsess over being optimal get the boot. "Casuals" who learn the game together with each other still exist.

Anecdotal but; I'm part of a Facebook group specifically made for Solo players (I don't consider myself a solo player compared to many of them, some refuse to group with anyone they don't know) but it's a group of over 80,000 players playing the game their own "suboptimal" way, and still find meaning in the game. Everyone doesn't infact go to wowhead to look at datamining, and everyone doesn't infact choose the best talents because it's easier to follow a guide. Some people want to play a fire shaman, or a warrior who dual-wields onehanders, or a marksman pet which uses a pet. It's probably objectively worse, but the game lets you do it, and not every raid environment would punish you for it (This wasn't the case a few years ago, but fluff/lifestyle talents like that have come back since the new Dragonflight talent trees).

I think a lot of the feeling of disillusionment many veterans have (and the players I kind of meant in my initial post) is self-inflicted to some degree, because their expertise grows too, and their insight on intricacies and what "being good" constitutes also deepens. Coupled with that and maybe that they've been burned by the elitist players, they might think that "this is the only way the game is able to be approached now, then it isn't for me anymore" which I don't really agree with.

I know you both talked about the developer side of things too, and how certain means of interaction have been "ironed away", but I initially just meant player-to-player-to-world interactions, so I didn't factor that in at all. And you're probably right about most of those things.

Maybe all these people clamoring for horizontal progression are right after all. I had never given it much thought before ?

Sorry for the long post. My main point was just that there are still people who value the "old/bad" way of playing MMOs, even in WoW.

 

[Lee__Kanker]

I got 3D Land right for Christmas that year (at the time, I was 13) and was pretty much instantly disappointed by it. Theoretically, it should be my favourite Mario game ever, because it's closer to the 2D ones (that I did grow up with the GBA ports of), but it's just so fucking BORING and EASY and SLOW. Mario moves like a geriatric tortoise through levels designed by people who clearly just wanted to go on lunch, and – especially these days – completing them all just feels like filling out a government form. If you told me the game was a reskinned licensed platformer based on a Disney movie, I'd believe you.

I really hate how gimped all the power-ups were, too – I could not believe they removed the flight ability from the Tanooki suit! What the F were they on!? That was the whole point of the suit! Nobody cared about the buggering tail whip! Even the little blue shell boomerang power-up was just the most boring thing in existence – it's exactly the same as the fireball, the projectile just doesn't bounce off the ground. It was worse than the one in Super Mario Advance 4 on the GBA – how is that possible!?

My view on 3D World is essentially the same, but I honestly think I liked it even less because of all the collect-a-thon bullshit they make you do. (I hate that in platformers!) I played the game exactly as intended many times, with four friends/siblings all making our way through the game together. During every single session, we'd beat one level, inevitably miss some green star or key or something, someone would say "Want to go back and play that one again?", we'd all groan, and play Nintendo Land instead (which, to this day, is still my favourite game on the console by a long shot).

THAT BEING SAID, not that I've played it, I do think Bowser's Fury looks very cool and I'd love to try it out one day. They should make a whole big-budget Mario game like that, with a strong balance of levels that are both open and directed, and that just lets you fucking use a variety of interesting power-ups again. GET IT TOGETHER, NINTENDO!!!!!

Also, speaking of the 3DS, here's a bloody hot take for everyone: As someone who got the console at launch and was heavily involved in the culture surrounding it, I thought the first year was pretty atrocious. The only games anyone was playing was Super Street Fighter IV (port of a then-three-year-old game) and some Tom Clancy tactics game. Before SM3DL, I personally had only Rayman 3D (a port of a then-thirteen-year-old game) and a somewhat-interesting Tintin movie tie-in that played a bit like the sidescrolling Prince of Persias.

The games that people were hyped for that year included Ocarina of Time 3D (a port of a then-thirteen-year-old game) and Star Fox 64 3D (a port of a then-fourteen-year-old game). They didn't even let you use the eShop until, like, 4 months in! I actually felt really disappointed in the console at first, and spent most of that initial year just playing DS games or the free GBA games they gave you after halving the unit's price. Though it did eventually get some interesting free downloads like Nintendo Video, it wasn't until games like Kid Icarus Uprising and Fire Emblem Awakening came out that I finally felt satisfied with owning one. (And, of course, at the end of the console's life, I loved it.)

-------

Oh, and one more thing...

For some reason I thought you were older than me but you're actually like 4 years younger, huh

I thought everyone agreed the 3DS has one of the worst launch line ups of all time regardless of region

I remember holding a 3ds for the first time at a kiosk at a book store chain and playing Pilot Wings Resort and being like "Thats it?" it was like a wii sports minigame sold as a whole game! it could've been done on the ds no problem and now I need a 300 euros console to play it?? You're pulling my leg


Look at this

Steel Diver, a simple submarine game, I guess it could be decent but for a 300 euros console it doesnt scream NEW, I couldve done it on the ds

Nintendogs again?

Street fighter 4? Maybe down the line but playing it on this uber uncomfortable cramp inducing contraption with tiny buttons and sharp corners sounds like a nightmare, plus I wasnt really thinking STREET FIGHTER when the 3ds was announced

The sims? I already played portable the sims on psp

Sports games on ds, yeah sure

Lego Star Wars? Arent there already 10 of these on ds and psp and ps2?

I love ridge racer so let's mark this as "maybe good" though the ds didnt have a good track record with racers unlike the psp so I dunno, the RRs on psp were awesome

Bad monkey ball, great

Puzzle Bobble? I already have that

Samurai Warriors? Maybe

A fucking phone game? That's low

Some ubisoft game for toddlers

A bad port of Rayman 2 that doesnt say its rayman 2 anywhere on the box, to this day I wonder if you'd have a case against ubisoft here if you sued them for false advertising

Ghost recon? Who cares, and how am I gonna play with without the second stick?

It's 6 7 years after the psp and this feels like it's far below it what the hell