Hot takes

[What's His Face]

Zelda II: The Adventure of Link is the best Zelda, and is most important of the pre-3D Zelda titles for the development of those 3D titles.

 

[Prism_Red]

Souls series are not "hard" they are just intricately designed so the odds are heavily stacked against you, you don't 'git gud' by finding exploits or cheese your way around the bosses.

If I want to play a difficult game, I'd play modern Ninja Gaiden series.

 

[Gorse]

Fair enough but imo it is an overrated concept.

Somnia, darling, this is the crux of our argument, and why we're never going to agree: I'm personally of the opinion that professionalism, maturity, and the ability to conduct oneself properly in public is essentially the most important attribute of being an adult. (This is irrelevant, but, as I've mentioned before, I've literally taught university courses about this very topic.) It may be insincere, yes, but so is the ridiculous persona that most famous people on the internet create for themselves, so "sincerity" really holds no value in the discussion.

Like it or not, indie developers and their audiences aren't on equal ground – one is trying to sell the other a product, and the other has money to give. If the customer doesn't like the seller – for any reason – they're fully in their right not only to not purchase from them, but to complain about it on the internet. That's capitalism, baby, and it's the reason we're discussing electronic TV toys instead of food lines. Obviously all the developers I mentioned succeeded financially in spite of their insufferableness (I bet even Phil Fish made never-work-again money), but I absolutely am still going to complain about them however I fancy – and if you disagree, you're not thinking in the real world. COMMIE!!!! ()

Now, whether or not we think this is right or wrong is a far, far bigger discussion than is worth having on RetroGameTalk.com, but it is the reality of the situation, not the emotion of it. I deal with things as they are, not as they should be, which makes me public enemy #1 of the internet.

there is more to those two than surface level differences. You need to consider parametrical differences, too, or, in other words, how the game feels, as what it looks like on the tin doesn't tell the whole story.

But RageBurner, that's my point: the fact that we need to dig into nitty-gritty granular details of each game to explain why their different is proof enough that, on a general level, they're unoriginal. When explaining Cave Story to someone who'd never played or heard of it before, you could dive into the intricacies of the Metroidvania genre, identify individual gameplay quirks (which themselves would require context) and reference the nuanced opinions of hardcore purists... but you'd likely begin your description with the phrase "It's like Metroid", or "It's like Earthbound", or "It's like Harvest Moon".

Again: If you didn't like one, why would you ever want to play any of the others? That's my issue. Yes, it may very well be a shallow and surface-level comparison (in some cases more than others), but we're talking about video games, here.

I care if the game's good, which is actually quite rare both for indies and AAA.

THAT TOO!!!!!! Of the examples I listed, as mentioned, I do like Minecraft – I think it's one of the best games ever made, and certainly the single most successful – so I can easily ignore whatever BS Notch says on a daily basis. I don't like Undertale or Fez or a lot of other indie games, so when I see their creators mouth off on social media, I have no problem with complaining about them on the internet.

 

[Tonberry]

"It's like Metroid", or "It's like Earthbound", or "It's like Harvest Moon".

You're actually taught to not do this (in just about any business-adjacent education) when marketing your product because it's a hack thing to do since it diverts attention away from your product.
The problem is that it still works because it makes it easier for the uninitiated to get interested (ergo, it's a money-grubbing tactic), so people resort to it anyways.

 

[Gorse]

You're actually taught to not do this (in just about any business-adjacent education) when marketing your product because it's a hack thing to do since it diverts attention away from your product.

Funnily, I was taught this in business school, too, but in the real world, it simply isn't true – especially in software, you see people describing their product as "IT'S LIKE AIRBNB FOR CARS!!!" all the time. How they get away with this without being massively sued is a mystery.

 

[Tonberry]

Funnily, I was taught this in business school, too, but in the real world, it simply isn't true – especially in software, you see people describing their product as "IT'S LIKE AIRBNB FOR CARS!!!" all the time. How they get away with this without being massively sued is a mystery.

I definitely think it's good practice to not do it, and I guess part of the professionalism you're talking about. I never try to mention influences when I talk about stuff I like unless it comes up naturally. It's easier when you talk about stuff you dislike though, since it sort of gives grounds to tear something down. Like I said I have a real hard time justifying buying games if the description mentions a classic they're inspired by (though I made an exception for Lunacid lately)

Though I disagree with your stance on unoriginality=quality (to simplify it greatly), I too have a point where I just sort of have to put my foot down because something appears way too derivative. Bomb Rush Cyberfunk was like that because I don't think it tries hard enough to look unique, and instead looks LITERALLY exactly like Jet Set Radio Future. If it took inspiration but molded it into something that looks more like its own thing I'd be way more interested in it.
Pizza Tower is a way better example, because while you can clearly feel that it was inspired by Wario games when it comes to gameplay, there aren't any Wario games around, and it does enough with its gameplay to justify this, and it does something COMPLETELY unique with its visuals. Regardless if you think it's an ugly game or not, the style and atmosphere is, so far, wholly unique, and the art could even be described as provocative since it's so "ugly", and I think that's something worth appreciating, EVEN if "it's just Wario Land" (which it isn't )

 

[moonbits]

You're actually taught to not do this (in just about any business-adjacent education) when marketing your product because it's a hack thing to do since it diverts attention away from your product.
The problem is that it still works because it makes it easier for the uninitiated to get interested (ergo, it's a money-grubbing tactic), so people resort to it anyways.

"A new roguelight dungeoncrawler with unique survival mechanics!"
Gamers: *sleep*
"TS LIEK HADERS MEETS DORK SOULS XDDD"
Gamers: :OOO

 

[Tonberry]

I dunno if this is a particularly hot take, but it was a shower thought I had:

Mario Maker as an idea is an actual god-tier killer app, and people aren't appreciative enough of how Nintendo just sort of allowed fans to partake in such a extremely well-constructed package and just go nuts with it.

I know this is a romhack-adjacent forum so I get that there might be grounds to dislike it from a fanmade perspective (though Kaizos are still around and kicking)

 

[RageBurner]

I dunno if this is a particularly hot take, but it was a shower thought I had:

Mario Maker as an idea is an actual god-tier killer app, and people aren't appreciative enough of how Nintendo just sort of allowed fans to partake in such a extremely well-constructed package and just go nuts with it.

I know this is a romhack-adjacent forum so I get that there might be grounds to dislike it from a fanmade perspective (though Kaizos are still around and kicking)

Nah, you're right, its way off the curve in a good way. I can only think of Mega Maker for something of similar scope, and Capcom just lets it exist rather than actively ushering it, so N gets credit here, much to my chagrin.

 

[Somnia]

I dunno if this is a particularly hot take, but it was a shower thought I had:

Mario Maker as an idea is an actual god-tier killer app, and people aren't appreciative enough of how Nintendo just sort of allowed fans to partake in such a extremely well-constructed package and just go nuts with it.

I know this is a romhack-adjacent forum so I get that there might be grounds to dislike it from a fanmade perspective (though Kaizos are still around and kicking)

I really like that Nintendo isn't milking it, too. They seem to be committed to just 1 a generation and it's always so exciting when it releases. I've never been a big 2D Mario fan but the Maker games have kept me glued to my systems for hours upon hours where the source material rarely excites me enough for a single playthrough. Considering Maker 3 will likely integrate Wonder type mechanics with wilder visuals and shifting perspectives/level gimmicks I'm super excited to see what tools the community gets to go even wilder moving forward.

Now, whether or not we think this is right or wrong is a far, far bigger discussion than is worth having on RetroGameTalk.com, but it is the reality of the situation, not the emotion of it. I deal with things as they are, not as they should be, which makes me public enemy #1 of the internet.

This is such an embarrassing mindset and doesn't even approach being tethered to reality. Just hope you figure it out one day, but that seems highly unlikely.

 

[vitad00d]

Here's one: I dislike the presence of "hot"/waifu/sexualized characters, but for non-political/culture war reasons. It feels infantilizing and part of a blurring between video games, conventionally understood, and a simulation of wish fulfillment.

Idealized human forms represents part of the slate of characteristics that divide literary fiction from subliterary fiction (think romance novels and bad sci-fi). Or grown-up movies from Marvel-ish slop. In other words, art impelled into being by an escapism/wish fulfillment impulse vs. an engagement-with-reality (or other) impulse. This isn't to say one category of expression is always better than another, but I just don't really go to art/entertainment for the former and I find something sometimes creepy in it.

People who get way into the wish fulfillment sim or simulated social life aspects of games––"that's me saving the world and finding a girl who loves me!"––often tend to make up the "communities" around certain games (I'm thinking of Persona and Fire Emblem mostly) and negatively affect game development. Video game characters are the means to an end, not the end in and of itself (especially practically, because they tend to be thinly drawn and uninteresting).

(Sorry if that seemed snobby! If you disagree, I'll preemptively apologize and assert that your opinion is valid.)

 

[YuriSukiSan]

I was holding off because I didn't want to interrupt the flow of conversation but I wanted to talk about this because I like MMORPG talk, I don't expect a response either! I know I'm a little obsessed with this topic.

People complaining that MMOs aren't "social enough" anymore are often inflicting this upon themselves. You constantly see people claiming it's impossible to be social in MMOs, but they're oftentimes simply not trying hard enough, or are afraid of making first contact. I've never ever had an issue where any MMO I've played felt "too barren", and I'm almost always a solo player at that. Don't worry so much and say hello during a dungeon sometimes!

I say this as a roleplayer that used to run communities and has generally been involved in most of the major MMORPGs to be released over the years. Socialization in mainstream MMORPGs exists but not in the same way. It's by intentional design. The reason (in my experience) people say MMORPGs aren't social anymore is because modern MMORPGs are designed to be single player games with opt in party features. That's great for casual players but if you've never experienced an old fashioned community it's like it's a small village where everything has to be sourced locally otherwise you can't get it, so you have to make connections, you need to rely on each other, you need to make friends and outtings have to be planned. You need friends just to level! Your reputation matters. And everyone either knows you or you know someone that knows them. If you were evil good luck getting anything meaningful done! Modern MMORPGs don't really have that, they're typically mega-cities where people excel at apathy, personal reputation doesn't matter and everything is readily available or easily accessible at all times of the day, it's so insanely streamined -- atomized -- comparable to how it was that it's indescribable.

We've gotten to the point now where NPCs will soon be filling the party roles with it already starting in XIV, and likely WoW to soon follow. Even WoW which was casual for it's release was originally built from the ground up and designed in such a way as to force you to interact with other people. And it was destroyed for the sake of chasing after convenience and appealing the broadest (€€€) audience possible. The end result is that your average player typically treats another like a ghost. No one has any real intrinsic value in these games anymore. In WoW and XIV people even don't typically talk to form groups, or in dungeons, they just queue straight in to an automatic system, with a group of players they'll never see again, who are just a means to an end. Raiding is fun but that was always just one aspect of the game that requires serious cooperation, and now everything has been streamlined for raiding, by raiding, all the time. Because people like Ion Hazzakostas (elitist jerks, the forum) think everything should be balanced around a spread sheet rather than taking a hollistic approach. You know the most common complaint about there being no content? It might sound silly but you're meant to be the content, not just the dungeons, or the raids. Leveling then forming bonds to over come challenges was the major source of content. Not logging in once a week to do some dailies.

And I say this as someone that's typically very social, nothing leaves me feeling more jaded than the state of modern RP servers. XIV's Second Life scene has attached itself like a leperous sore to the RP community, which its cannabalizing. Balmung used to be like a walking, talking, breathing village where people roleplayed out in the open. And everyone was incredibly friendly. Now it's Mos Eisley's red light district on a bad night -every night. Elwynn Forest in WoW used to be filled to the brim with happy, friendly, faces looking to RP and hang out. Now Goldshire is filled with people trying to groom children and porn addicted zoomers because Blizzard aren't willing to pay GMs to police community behaviour. (The same is true of XIV which is full of groomers)

 

[Tonberry]

Here's one: I dislike the presence of "hot"/waifu/sexualized characters, but for non-political/culture war reasons. It feels infantilizing and part of a blurring between video games, conventionally understood, and a simulation of wish fulfillment.

Idealized human forms represents part of the slate of characteristics that divide literary fiction from subliterary fiction (think romance novels and bad sci-fi). Or grown-up movies from Marvel-ish slop. In other words, art impelled into being by an escapism/wish fulfillment impulse vs. an engagement-with-reality (or other) impulse. This isn't to say one category of expression is always better than another, but I just don't really go to art/entertainment for the former and I find something sometimes creepy in it.

People who get way into the wish fulfillment sim or simulated social life aspects of games––"that's me saving the world and finding a girl who loves me!"––often tend to make up the "communities" around certain games (I'm thinking of Persona and Fire Emblem mostly) and negatively affect game development. Video game characters are the means to an end, not the end in and of itself (especially practically, because they tend to be thinly drawn and uninteresting).

(Sorry if that seemed snobby! If you disagree, I'll preemptively apologize and assert that your opinion is valid.)

Interesting! I like your explanations to the way you think.

I’m not sure where I stand personally, because I haven’t given it much thought. I think that the impression one player gets from a character or a design is ultimately up to them since it’s their experience and not mine, regardless of of the intention of the developer.

I know that I have this thing where I can’t look at a non-sexual character in a sexual way if they come from a game I’ve played, because then I ”know” the character, and not just the design. But at the same time I’m not against ”idealized” physical depictions of the human form, but it’s always better if there’s a good character to back it up. I also know that I get sort of ”annoyed” when friends, for example, play a Persona game and only view the characters as the tropes they’re embodying, and not as the (just about always) fleshed out personalities they have because I think that’s kind of reductive, but if that’s their experience then that’s fine.

What I do think however, is that sex appeal/romance isn’t the same as objectification (it very well can though be because it’s a very thin line between being tasteful and tasteless) and that when treated well is usually something that manages to elevate a work.

At the end of the day, games are games and some people are going to view romance in games as a minigame to be won, an others as a narrative device.
Both are fine, but people obsessing over ”waifus” are just about always more obnoxious to deal with.

 

[dropsmegamega]

I dunno if this is a particularly hot take, but it was a shower thought I had:

Mario Maker as an idea is an actual god-tier killer app, and people aren't appreciative enough of how Nintendo just sort of allowed fans to partake in such a extremely well-constructed package and just go nuts with it.

I know this is a romhack-adjacent forum so I get that there might be grounds to dislike it from a fanmade perspective (though Kaizos are still around and kicking)

Yeah I honestly was kinda indifferent to it because there are already so many other ways to make your own mario levels around and mario maker is very limited and its environment seem to encourage joke levels rather than interesting experiences. Or at least that's what its looked like whenever I saw someone play it.

Here's one: I dislike the presence of "hot"/waifu/sexualized characters, but for non-political/culture war reasons. It feels infantilizing and part of a blurring between video games, conventionally understood, and a simulation of wish fulfillment.

Idealized human forms represents part of the slate of characteristics that divide literary fiction from subliterary fiction (think romance novels and bad sci-fi). Or grown-up movies from Marvel-ish slop. In other words, art impelled into being by an escapism/wish fulfillment impulse vs. an engagement-with-reality (or other) impulse. This isn't to say one category of expression is always better than another, but I just don't really go to art/entertainment for the former and I find something sometimes creepy in it.

People who get way into the wish fulfillment sim or simulated social life aspects of games––"that's me saving the world and finding a girl who loves me!"––often tend to make up the "communities" around certain games (I'm thinking of Persona and Fire Emblem mostly) and negatively affect game development. Video game characters are the means to an end, not the end in and of itself (especially practically, because they tend to be thinly drawn and uninteresting).

(Sorry if that seemed snobby! If you disagree, I'll preemptively apologize and assert that your opinion is valid.)

I think I agree to some extent. Like, there were always characters like that in games in general and that was fine by me(not all games must be super serious after all), but starting with ps3 era many new jrpgs are just produced as this ridiculous "wish fulfillment sim" and every single character is a waifu and they want to add idols and make some cute character follow you around and whatever. It's like the marketing team writes the games instead. Even mainline SMT can't stay away from these trends.

 

[Tonberry]

I was holding off because I didn't want to interrupt the flow of conversation but I wanted to talk about this because I like MMORPG talk, I don't expect a response either! I know I'm a little obsessed with this topic.

I'm not saying I disagree with your entire post, but I think we're looking at it from two pretty different perspectives. When I mean "social", I just don't mean "socializing". That's the biggest part of it but in general it's a more abstract facet that permeates throughout the entire game. I know that's a really vague statement in and of itself, but I'm not entirely sure how to explain it in more detail.

Most people aren't roleplayers (I roleplayed in WoW back in the day but that was a social side thing only) and while you do bring up some valid points, I'm not sure I agree with the part that MMOs (at least WoW) are turning into single player games with opt-in multiplayer. If anything, I'd say it's the other way around, and systems like Mythic which requires you to manually form groups, and the overall success of WoW Classic proves that players still are up for engaging with each other in various meaningful ways. How meaningful they are depends on the player and their playstyle, though. People who use Raid Finder aren't the ones who search for these social aspects, and as such shouldn't be considered part of the "problem", which even justifies itself as Raid Finder always giving worse rewards than the modes that require you to establish connections with real people and raid.

RP servers have always been a special case, because those are the ones who actively seek out a way to sort of "insert" themselves into the game in a socializing way. Then again, it's of course going to sting when it feels like those servers are becoming something else, but roleplaying, while a valid playstyle, is still a sort of tertiary gamemode where you don't actually need to "play" the game.

I can't speak for the RP side of FF14 because I never took part in it, but Goldshire hasn't been anything but a place to goof off since at least 2009, where it even then was known as the Habbo Hotel of Azeroth.

Post automatically merged: Jan 15, 2025

Yeah I honestly was kinda indifferent to it because there are already so many other ways to make your own mario levels around and mario maker is very limited and its environment seem to encourage joke levels rather than interesting experiences. Or at least that's what its looked like whenever I saw someone play it.

My point was more that it's an official tool, rather than something fanmade, which feels like sort of a feverdreamish statement to make, since Nintendo is so known for taking down fan work. To then just go "Here, take this big toybox and make any Mario game you want!" is sort of impressive to me. The kids who use Mario Maker to create stuff are the biggest winners, because they have endless time and imagination, compared to tryhards like me who want to make a serious safe level and give up because it's not perfect my first try lol. We'll mostly see meme levels and goofy stuff online because that's the easiest stuff that nets views, but it's far from the only stuff available in the game.

 

[vitad00d]

Even mainline SMT can't stay away from these trends.

Yeah, the criticism that SMT V didn't have enough character development––meaning pages and pages of bad, AI-writing-like dialogue––revealed how wedded the audience is to this bad convention. I've stopped trying to play most modern RPGs because I know half of the experience is going to be inane exposition. It would be interesting to play these games without any exposition and just little notation bubbles saying do [blank] next. Would player motivation decline at all? I guess maybe because people seem to want the hours of prattle and lavishly thin characterizations. I don't get it...

 

[YuriSukiSan]

I'm not saying I disagree with your entire post, but I think we're looking at it from two pretty different perspectives. When I mean "social", I just don't mean "socializing". That's the biggest part of it but in general it's a more abstract facet that permeates throughout the entire game. I know that's a really vague statement in and of itself, but I'm not entirely sure how to explain it in more detail.

Most people aren't roleplayers (I roleplayed in WoW back in the day but that was a social side thing only) and while you do bring up some valid points, I'm not sure I agree with the part that MMOs (at least WoW) are turning into single player games with opt-in multiplayer. If anything, I'd say it's the other way around, and systems like Mythic which requires you to manually form groups, and the overall success of WoW Classic proves that players still are up for engaging with each other in various meaningful ways. How meaningful they are depends on the player and their playstyle, though. People who use Raid Finder aren't the ones who search for these social aspects, and as such shouldn't be considered part of the "problem", which even justifies itself as Raid Finder always giving worse rewards than the modes that require you to establish connections with real people and raid.

RP servers have always been a special case, because those are the ones who actively seek out a way to sort of "insert" themselves into the game in a socializing way. Then again, it's of course going to sting when it feels like those servers are becoming something else, but roleplaying, while a valid playstyle, is still a sort of tertiary gamemode where you don't actually need to "play" the game.

I can't speak for the RP side of FF14 because I never took part in it, but Goldshire hasn't been anything but a place to goof off since at least 2009, where it even then was known as the Habbo Hotel of Azeroth.

I think it would be better if you defined what you consider being social, or at least, what you feel qualifies as that? If it's not what you think I said.. And as for roleplayers being unique, the majority of people weren't roleplayers back in the day either but there was still a living, breathing, community on these servers because that's just how the game was designed to be from the get go. I don't blame casual players for being casual, I do resent the likes of reddit and who ever else that complain that Classic isn't retail, but I don't blame them as a whole for the decisions Blizzard made. The mentality and breath taking entitlement some of these people have is a problem, this me, me, me, me! attitude but I don't think it's the casual players fault as a whole.

In regards to retail (at a glance) since Dragonflight it does seem like they're trying to make it less of check list of chores and solo grinds but the M+ maze where you spam dungeons with randos isn't what I could call social honestly, you aren't having conversations, getting to know each other, you're typically just spam inviting whichever mercenary has the highest ilevel. And the players are recruited from every server connected to yours, so it's not like you'll ever see them again or ever run in to each other in the world because you simply don't need each other, you get your key done the fastest way possible then promptly ditch them.

And I'd say I partially agree that Classic WoW is generally more social, the initial launch in 2019 was actually a very unique experience on the right servers - initially - but what preceded that wasn't ideal either. People are more social than on retail but still much less than they used to be, it's very common for someone to wordlessly invite you for a kill and instantly leave with out a word once the mob has been tagged for them. Players will straight up blank you unless they need you. They'll take chests you're fighting for, ninja from you, etc, there's no real social etiquette or community to spirit to speak of. It's a very hollow experience. That's about as social as it gets unless you're sat in a discord chat. The type of community that non-streamer servers had in 2019 just isn't present anymore, that type of apathy I described towards other players is more way pronounced on the PVP servers but it's still very much present elsewhere.

 

[Tonberry]

I think it would be better if you defined what you consider being social, or at least, what you feel qualifies as that? If it's not what you think I said.. And as for roleplayers being unique, the majority of people weren't roleplayers back in the day either but there was still a living, breathing, community on these servers because that's just how the game was designed to be from the get go. I don't blame casual players for being casual, I do resent the likes of reddit and who ever else that complain that Classic isn't retail, but I don't blame them as a whole for the decisions Blizzard made. The mentality and breath taking entitlement some of these people have is a problem, this me, me, me, me! attitude but I don't think it's the casual players fault as a whole.

In regards to retail (at a glance) since Dragonflight it does seem like they're trying to make it less of check list of chores but the M+ maze where you spam dungeons with randos isn't what I could call social honestly, you aren't having conversations, getting to know each other, you're typically just spam inviting whichever mercenary has the highest ilevel. And the players are recruited from every server connected to yours, so it's not like you'll ever see them again or ever run in to each other in the world because you simply don't need each other, you get your key done the fastest way possible then forget about them.

And I'd say I partially agree that Classic WoW is generally more social, the initial launch in 2019 was actually a very unique experience on the right servers - initially - but what preceded that wasn't ideal either. People are more social than on retail but still much less than they used to be, it's very common for someone to wordlessly invite you for a kill and instantly leave with out a word once the mob has been tagged for them. Players will straight up blank you unless they need you for something. That's about as social as it gets unless you're sat in a discord chat in my experience. The type of community that non-streamer servers had in 2019 just isn't present anymore, that type of apathy I described towards other players is more way pronounced on the PVP servers but it's still very much present elsewhere.

Yeah, I realize I can't really put my definition into words, so I'll leave it because I can't really back my claim up in a non-abstract way. You are clearly way more passionate about the social aspect than I ever was, though, so I might just be looking at it from a more wide-eyed perspective and thus many of the issues you mention might just be going over my head, both here and in-game.

I play on Argent Dawn EU, and I know that the Argent Dawn experience is unique, because it's a completely separated server, so the only players you see there are the actual players, and not some cross-realm specter you won't ever see again (aside from the occasional player who is grouping with an AD native), and discussion and Tradechat is much more organic and lively than on just about any other realm, so I might be seeing it differently too compared to the people I lamented in my initial post. It might be a sort of privileged point-of-view actually, but it's made the game enjoyable for me every since I transferred there in like 2010.

Edit: And my examples are also special cases, like the Fresh servers, and the Zandalar restoration project.
I think Hardcore still has plenty of what you claim is missing though, but that's also a gimmick mode and I'm not versed enough in that to have any definite claims, just my friend who loves it mainly because people are forced to group together and tackle objectives together because it's simply to dangerous not to.

 

[YuriSukiSan]

Yeah, I realize I can't really put my definition into words, so I'll leave it because I can't really back my claim up in a non-abstract way. You are clearly way more passionate about the social aspect than I ever was, though, so I might just be looking at it from a more wide-eyed perspective and thus many of the issues you mention might just be going over my head, both here and in-game.

I play on Argent Dawn EU, and I know that the Argent Dawn experience is unique, because it's a completely separated server, so the only players you see there are the actual players, and not some cross-realm specter you won't ever see again (aside from the occasional player who is grouping with an AD native), and discussion and Tradechat is much more organic and lively than on just about any other realm, so I might be seeing it differently too compared to the people I lamented in my initial post. It might be a sort of privileged point-of-view actually, but it's made the game enjoyable for me every since I transferred there in like 2010. And my examples are also special cases, like the Fresh servers, and the Zandalar restoration project.
I think Hardcore still has plenty of what you claim is missing though, but that's also a gimmick mode and I'm not versed enough in that to have any definite claims, just my friend who loves it mainly because people are forced to group together and tackle objectives together because it's simply to dangerous not to.

I think it's just more pronounced for me because I spent time in games like XI which had a community I haven't seen replicated outside of the EQ 99 private servers. I've played on Argent Dawn too, or at least that's where I was on a very casual basis, I tended to resub to the game every now and then to hang out with some friends but I was apart of the community in TBC and Wrath. And I occasionally stop in to see a friend of mine now too and RP a little. It's definitely much healthier than other servers, it actaully seemed to be a pretty common trend for people that want something of a community to move to that server or at least that's what I've observed when I was active on the forums some time ago.

I've heard about the Zandalar Restoration Project, I remember seeing a few posts about it on the forums a long while back and my own experiences were in Fresh, I didn't play era after it transitioned to TBC. I'm not saying everyone is horrid, I did meet some nice people but at least in my experience on Horde side Spineshatter your average person is fairly indifferent to other playes unless they want or need something.. And, as for Hardcore? I couldn't comment on it outside of my younger brother linking me streamers dying in preventable scenarios to generate viral clips!

 

[Tonberry]

And, as for Hardcore? I couldn't comment on it outside of my younger brother linking me streamers dying in preventable scenarios to generate viral clips!

It sounds REALLY fun the way he describes it. I just don't want to invest that much time in a character that can be deleted forever for a mistake.
But since the stakes are so high, people form real connections with each other('s characters at the very least). You learn who has a profession that can help you, you learn who's a notorious ninja, you take your time with quests with rewards you might not have cared for before because any little incremental upgrade is mega important.

And if your friend dies, they're gone. Like dust in the wind.
Until they remake their character and grind back their progression of course

(Just as an aside, my experience on Spineshatter (Alliance) has so far been great, but I've also gone out of my way to sort of pretend I'm some kind of hero, so I'll play around as a valiant guy and give people potions and stuff because it's fun, helping lowbie rogues with their quest in Westfall, and I found a really good friendly guild who seem to be all about the journey. I had an awful experience with a mega passive aggressive enchanter though, who berated me for a tip, but I realized I have better things to do than to argue with poopsocker speedrunners who take the game more seriously than real life.)

(ALSO, do you think you could maybe point me in the direction of any good EQ private servers, if there are any? )

 

[faceless0man]

Phasmaphobia is way too hard and not noob friendly at all , me and my wife played 25 games and in total how many we won ? 0!! We watched videos and did everything but its still way too hard , easy Level shouldn't be THIS hard .

Its a fun game but constant loosing is bothersome after a while, this is not just "get gud" dark souls hard this is " read this 30 page Manuel About all ghost types and master them you will need to study atleast 100 hour's to akcukly start winning decent amount of games"

Look im all for making games more difficult for people who wants to choose hell yeah , but cmon at AMUTURE LEVEL we evan played 4 Players and still couldn't win once .

 

[RageBurner]

Phasmaphobia is way too hard and not noob friendly at all , me and my wife played 25 games and in total how many we won ? 0!! We watched videos and did everything but its still way too hard , easy Level shouldn't be THIS hard .

Its a fun game but constant loosing is bothersome after a while, this is not just "get gud" dark souls hard this is " read this 30 page Manuel About all ghost types and master them you will need to study atleast 100 hour's to akcukly start winning decent amount of games"

Look im all for making games more difficult for people who wants to choose hell yeah , but cmon at AMUTURE LEVEL we evan played 4 Players and still couldn't win once .

Difficulty is a broad topic, and sadly there is a lot of reducionistic discourse around it. You have extreme opinions on either end moaning "it's too hard, this game sucks!" and "games are meant to be hard, you suck!", and honestly the only way to fix this is meeting in the middle. How do you do that? have thorough and accomodating difficulty parameters under complete player control.

 

[faceless0man]

Difficulty is a broad topic, and sadly there is a lot of reducionistic discourse around it. You have extreme opinions on either end moaning "it's too hard, this game sucks!" and "games are meant to be hard, you suck!", and honestly the only way to fix this is meeting in the middle. How do you do that? have thorough and accomodating difficulty parameters under complete player control.

Exactly what said man , the issue i have with phasmaphobia is , you just can't get good though playing you need to STUDY all the Ghost for f sake
.while look i finished resident evil 7 and Village on hardest difficulty and also finished some other games on hard and played dark souls remastered for a bit , all those games i sayed you play and you slowly get better at it ,i respect that grind,but I don't agree with games making you study every enemy to this degree
Its a video game not a homework

 

[Somnia]

I say this as a roleplayer that used to run communities and has generally been involved in most of the major MMORPGs to be released over the years. Socialization in mainstream MMORPGs exists but not in the same way. It's by intentional design. The reason (in my experience) people say MMORPGs aren't social anymore is because modern MMORPGs are designed to be single player games with opt in party features. That's great for casual players but if you've never experienced an old fashioned community it's like it's a small village where everything has to be sourced locally otherwise you can't get it, so you have to make connections, you need to rely on each other, you need to make friends and outtings have to be planned. You need friends just to level! Your reputation matters. And everyone either knows you or you know someone that knows them. If you were evil good luck getting anything meaningful done! Modern MMORPGs don't really have that, they're typically mega-cities where people excel at apathy, personal reputation doesn't matter and everything is readily available or easily accessible at all times of the day, it's so insanely streamined -- atomized -- comparable to how it was that it's indescribable.

We've gotten to the point now where NPCs will soon be filling the party roles with it already starting in XIV, and likely WoW to soon follow. Even WoW which was casual for it's release was originally built from the ground up and designed in such a way as to force you to interact with other people. And it was destroyed for the sake of chasing after convenience and appealing the broadest (€€€) audience possible. The end result is that your average player typically treats another like a ghost. No one has any real intrinsic value in these games anymore. In WoW and XIV people even don't typically talk to form groups, or in dungeons, they just queue straight in to an automatic system, with a group of players they'll never see again, who are just a means to an end. Raiding is fun but that was always just one aspect of the game that requires serious cooperation, and now everything has been streamlined for raiding, by raiding, all the time. Because people like Ion Hazzakostas (elitist jerks, the forum) think everything should be balanced around a spread sheet rather than taking a hollistic approach. You know the most common complaint about there being no content? It might sound silly but you're meant to be the content, not just the dungeons, or the raids. Leveling then forming bonds to over come challenges was the major source of content. Not logging in once a week to do some dailies.

And I say this as someone that's typically very social, nothing leaves me feeling more jaded than the state of modern RP servers. XIV's Second Life scene which has attached itself like a leperous sore to the RP community, which its cannabalizing. Balmung used to be like a walking, talking, breathing village where people roleplayed out in the open. And everyone was incredibly friendly. Now it's Mos Eisley's red light district on a bad night -every night. Elwynn Forest in WoW used to be filled to the brim with happy, friendly, faces looking to RP and hang out. Now Goldshire is filled with people trying to groom children and porn addicted zoomers because Blizzard aren't willing to pay GMs to police community behaviour. (The same is true of XIV which is full of groomers)

100% this and it's a shame because the issues have become systemic. WoW Classic went down exactly how I expected it to. The people proclaiming it would be a return to social play and difficult content would be met with anti-social players and content that had been optimized to death by better servers/pc hardware and endless mechanic/build optimizations. The end result is a game that feels just as isolating as retail, only the people who do talk are stuck in the past or have an even greater sense of elitism for thinking they're playing some objectively better version of the game.

And when it comes to content optimization the existence of unchecked plugins has ruined content. Now people don't even have to engage with extremely well designed and thoughtful mechanics because they are all using plugins that do it for them. Showing AoEs, auto-assigning mechanical roles when certain things pop-up and reducing the need to communicate just about everything. This then trickles down to the casual scene where people who don't know about or want to use these plug-ins are completely left out of the ability to do higher difficulty runs. You can't police plugins either because tons of wonderful accessibility and mundane QoL stuff would get lumped in with the truly damaging stuff and make the game a worse place for many people.

Leveling also just doesn't matter anymore, like you said. It is treated as busywork to complete as soon as possible, with content and gearing surrounding the leveling process being more mundane than ever as developers design it to be sped through solo rather than enjoyed as a long journey.

So we have a genre that has become entirely about themepark design, where everything leading to endgame is treated as pointless filler to be blasted through, with endgame outside of the super high end stuff being queueing for dungeon/raid matchmaking that are dumbed down mechanically so as to stop players from ever having to talk or coordinate with each other before, during or after a session. Once you reach that super high end you realize that players are doing all they can to be as toxic and lazy as possible by offloading as much of the difficulty as they can onto plugins and the like whilst heavily policing DPS/heal/tank charts and the like.

It's so depressing. I remember back when I played FFXIV in vanilla thru Stormblood that I'd see tons of RP groups just openly doin their thing all over Eorzea. Bands playing, teachers instructing a class, flirting and every shade of overly dramatic life-or-death nonsense you could imagine. For all the issues I've had with post-vanilla FFXIV for trivializing all of the unique aspects of XIV to make it as generic as possible, at least the players were lively and exciting to be around and interact with. Hearing that, that isn't so much the case anymore makes me quite sad especially since I was looking to hop back in for the first time since 2018 or so.

And there doesn't seem to be a refuge either. I still play Old School Runescape and love it, but most of the people you run into aren't interested in talking and a lot of people you see skilling are just people using bots of various kinds to do it for them on a second monitor. Silly as it sounds I like sitting there for hours doing the same motions fishing while talking to people and exchanging tips. Loved it as a kid and those rare moments where I get those interactions are still thrilling as a 29 year old. Just a shame it isn't the norm anymore and probably never will be as the genre continues to find new and exciting ways to stop people from ever having to care about the massively multiplayer part of their MMOs.

 

[RageBurner]

100% this and it's a shame because the issues have become systemic. WoW Classic went down exactly how I expected it to. The people proclaiming it would be a return to social play and difficult content would be met with anti-social players and content that had been optimized to death by better servers/pc hardware and endless mechanic/build optimizations. The end result is a game that feels just as isolating as retail, only the people who do talk are stuck in the past or have an even greater sense of elitism for thinking they're playing some objectively better version of the game.

And when it comes to content optimization the existence of unchecked plugins has ruined content. Now people don't even have to engage with extremely well designed and thoughtful mechanics because they are all using plugins that do it for them. Showing AoEs, auto-assigning mechanical roles when certain things pop-up and reducing the need to communicate just about everything. This then trickles down to the casual scene where people who don't know about or want to use these plug-ins are completely left out of the ability to do higher difficulty runs. You can't police plugins either because tons of wonderful accessibility and mundane QoL stuff would get lumped in with the truly damaging stuff and make the game a worse place for many people.

Leveling also just doesn't matter anymore, like you said. It is treated as busywork to complete as soon as possible, with content and gearing surrounding the leveling process being more mundane than ever as developers design it to be sped through solo rather than enjoyed as a long journey.

So we have a genre that has become entirely about themepark design, where everything leading to endgame is treated as pointless filler to be blasted through, with endgame outside of the super high end stuff being queueing for dungeon/raid matchmaking that are dumbed down mechanically so as to stop players from ever having to talk or coordinate with each other before, during or after a session. Once you reach that super high end you realize that players are doing all they can to be as toxic and lazy as possible by offloading as much of the difficulty as they can onto plugins and the like whilst heavily policing DPS/heal/tank charts and the like.

It's so depressing. I remember back when I played FFXIV in vanilla thru Stormblood that I'd see tons of RP groups just openly doin their thing all over Eorzea. Bands playing, teachers instructing a class, flirting and every shade of overly dramatic life-or-death nonsense you could imagine. For all the issues I've had with post-vanilla FFXIV for trivializing all of the unique aspects of XIV to make it as generic as possible, at least the players were lively and exciting to be around and interact with. Hearing that, that isn't so much the case anymore makes me quite sad especially since I was looking to hop back in for the first time since 2018 or so.

And there doesn't seem to be a refuge either. I still play Old School Runescape and love it, but most of the people you run into aren't interested in talking and a lot of people you see skilling are just people using bots of various kinds to do it for them on a second monitor. Silly as it sounds I like sitting there for hours doing the same motions fishing while talking to people and exchanging tips. Loved it as a kid and those rare moments where I get those interactions are still thrilling as a 29 year old. Just a shame it isn't the norm anymore and probably never will be as the genre continues to find new and exciting ways to stop people from ever having to care about the massively multiplayer part of their MMOs.

I don't have a lot of experience with MMOs (I played RO a lot, though, helped run a guild and such) but I think I understand this dissonance you are talking about. Over time, as a community grows it tends to splinter (no relation to mentor rats), and as with the outside world, you have your radical offshoots.

There is a difference between "living the game" and "playing the game"; they are not mutually exclusive (I honestly feel good MMOs are designed to mesh the two), but people will absolutely separate these intrinsic aspects and, as the saying goes, try to optimize the fun out of a game.

People that are only worried about numbers and being hardly performant are fundamentally different from those that wish to truly socialize and foster growth and camaraderie. Even in a MMO with zero real plot like RO I could feel this. When my friend left me with the leadership of the guild, it became tiresome - most people wanted help for specific tasks, but not all. Some were really interested in just sharing a bit of themselves and foster a friendship - I stayed for this latter group, but they were the absolute minority.

Anyway, sorry for the little reverie, I'm not sure if I'm way off base here considering what you shared, but I felt like chipping in.