According to recently polled Japanese game developers, 100% of them are currently using Gen AI

I extremely doubt ai will replace artist in the comic, manga or nsfw portion. People are interesting in the artstyle and stories, something Ai cant replicate. Maybe in advertisments like print shops but they also need artist to scale and edit the process out.
Well not for a lack of trying I must admit..I head from a Friend.

But man I heard from a friend that it practically floods the sites with AI Slop and no I am not hating on AI but many pictures there lack any kind of quality control and if you try to find a good looking picture it can get annoying.

I heard from a Friend of course.
 
Very well, we'll begin with our premise. We believe this current debate around AI resembles the historical conflict between the Guelphs and Ghibellines. The strongest argument in favour of AI will follow some of the reasoning of James Burnham, particularly his work on Machiavelli and the Managerial Revolution.
We will elevate the pro AI position to one of philosophical credibility, you are then tasked with dismantling it.

First, let us characterise your position appropriately. You are a Ghibelline, not unlike Dante Alighieri. You support your arguments with metaphysics because you have no empirical proof. We are Guelphs, cold realists like Machiavelli. We pre-empt your rebuttal that empiricism itself is impossible without a priori rational categories, but would contend that the strength of that argument rests on the need for absolute truth.
If we are willing to forgo truth (and for the purpose of this exercise we are) then the only real proof in life is success. Because there is no umpire enforcing rules here (there is no God), the only thing that has value is victory, no matter the cost. If AI outcompetes humanity, it will be because the law of power sanctioned it.

Your move.
 
Ok, who wants some? *Cracks knuckles*.
Damn, those AI bastards are gonna PAY for screwing up my bride.
Apogee Software Duke GIF by Apogee Entertainment
1784641223574.jpeg
 
They're much more forgiving towards AI in most east Asian countries. That said there needs to be limits and regulations. No AI art nor AI art assets. Even for something that's a placeholder. Just make an actual placeholder on your own.

Then they have shitty tastes, standards, and I hope they have fun reading constant regurgatating copies of a copy of another copy to that copy is cop's pathetic version of a different copy that at least tried to be somewhat original, before the AI usage kicked in.
Yeah I don't get the "customers buy it, therefore who cares", THIS IMPACTS EVERYONE and there is a gigantic portion of the population that either dislikes or HATES AI use in art, this should be limited to prerelease assets, SOME code and when AI gets good enough playtesting.

I do not hate AI but if they start using it in VERY visible spaces like in-game art and assets that's when it becomes a problem.
 
Very well, we'll begin with our premise. We believe this current debate around AI resembles the historical conflict between the Guelphs and Ghibellines. The strongest argument in favour of AI will follow some of the reasoning of James Burnham,
I did not expect to find a references to Guelphs and Ghibellines on here.
Shout out to oversimplified.
History nerd confirmed ?
 
Yes, and to answer your other comment, we emigrated to Montana from South Africa. So perhaps we know even more about walls... hehe... sorry *sweats profusely*
Praat jy Afrikaans?
anyhow South Africa to Montana sure is not a small jump lol.

But hey at least they did not migrate to Ohio

Also don't worry my knowledge about South Africa is limited besides the Boers and the former Apartheid state..so likely the basics.
 
Very well, we'll begin with our premise. We believe this current debate around AI resembles the historical conflict between the Guelphs and Ghibellines. The strongest argument in favour of AI will follow some of the reasoning of James Burnham, particularly his work on Machiavelli and the Managerial Revolution.
We will elevate the pro AI position to one of philosophical credibility, you are then tasked with dismantling it.

First, let us characterise your position appropriately. You are a Ghibelline, not unlike Dante Alighieri. You support your arguments with metaphysics because you have no empirical proof. We are Guelphs, cold realists like Machiavelli. We pre-empt your rebuttal that empiricism itself is impossible without a priori rational categories, but would contend that the strength of that argument rests on the need for absolute truth.
If we are willing to forgo truth (and for the purpose of this exercise we are) then the only real proof in life is success. Because there is no umpire enforcing rules here (there is no God), the only thing that has value is victory, no matter the cost. If AI outcompetes humanity, it will be because the law of power sanctioned it.

Your move.
1784641863470.png

Here I was thinking this would be easy!

Okay, you've really backed me into a corner here. Do I really have to be Dante? I'm not even a Christian!
But I see what you're trying to do, methinks you want this to boil down to the ancient clash of freedom versus necessity. Though you are arguing from Burnham's perspective, so we are probably in agreement about preferring freedom.
Which means our dispute isn't actually about that dichotomy, it's instead a debate about the real nature of freedom. Because if we are in favour of constraining AI, it means we have separated the concepts of freedom and power.

Unlike what that other fellow was arguing, the free market isn't some kind of deity, it's the culmination of certain cultural values. Whenever anyone argues against big business, personal liberty takes collateral damage. This is why modern debates tends to take their current shape, one is either a collectivist or an individualist. It's reductive, yes, but this is our zeitgeist.

So it seems one does not simply, excuse me...
1784644356574.png

One does not simply debate AI itself, we are forced by the very nature of the question to ask a further question - do collectives have any right to constrain power, or is that precedent too destructive for personal liberty?

I could take this further, but I'd like to see if we are understanding each other first.
I'd also like to assure any mods present that I don't intend to discuss politics here, though I may touch on abstract concepts that inform political theories.
 
Idk targetting the users here even if its not one person is still a rule breaker.
Look I'm not really here to start stuff, and if this gets me banned, then whatever, but this guy IMO is definitely breaking the rules. I've been seeing this guy repeatedly pop up in a few threads over the past week and this is literally all he does. I'm honestly surprised mods haven't banned him yet. Like just taking a glance at his post history all he seems to do is go into threads and try and start fights. I've seen mods lock threads after they devolve into arguments over AI (including threads this guy has taken part in) and even seen them ban people in those threads, (mostly the anti-AI people) and hide replies in these locked threads and then banning accounts for calling out that behavior yet this guy has had free reign to go through threads and provoke people for the past week.

All this guys seems to do is just go into threads relating to AI or games translated with AI and rage bait people calling them "luddites", endlessly glazing AI and using it to put down peoples art and even going as far as to make things political by claiming all the anti-ai people here are "far left bigots" from resetera and calling for mods to ban them. Like thoughtful discussion and sharing opinions on AI, even if those opinions clash, is one thing, but all of this guys posts feel like they were made in bad faith with the goal of starting arguments.

It's also luddites seething and crying whenever a new machine translated game gets posted. So if you want to ban Ai discussions then the luddite crying under every machine translated game should be moderated too.
Okay now I understand why you're crying about Ai here 😆. You produce generic mediocre slop that won't be enough to compete with gen Ai. Sucks for you friend, you will indeed need to find another occupation.

Confirms what I said. A good artist isn't afraid of Ai, sadly you're not on that level I see.
Agreed, the anti ai luddites are really getting annoying. Time to ban them.

Also it seems many of the vocal members here against ai also come from the Resetera forum, a notorious far left bigotted forum. Please keep them out, most of them are terminally online and they fck up all gaming communities with their extreme cult like ideologies.
These people can't have a normal debate that's why the all retreat to echo chambers like bluesky, reddit or resetera. If someone counters their arguments they fold immediately as you can see, quite sad.

That's for the market to decide, like everything else in this economic system. Artists aren't special snowflakes immune to supply and demand.
Indeed. like I said in the Shining Hearts thread, the luddites crying about ai are mostly coming from far left biggoted places like Resetera, reddit,... They do not allow any other opinion besides the approved ones of their ill cult. Most of them are also terminally online and make it a life or death battle for them because there isn't much else going on for them in real life, hence the cultish and irrational screeching.

And of course we indeed had faithful translations being brigaded, translators being harassed because they didn't make the translation politically correct/woke enough for the cult.

I'm almost certain these messages alone violate multiple rules.
 
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View attachment 213810
Here I was thinking this would be easy!

Okay, you've really backed me into a corner here. Do I really have to be Dante? I'm not even a Christian!
But I see what you're trying to do, methinks you want this to boil down to the ancient clash of freedom versus necessity. Though you are arguing from Burnham's perspective, so we are probably in agreement about preferring freedom.
Which means our dispute isn't actually about that dichotomy, it's instead a debate about the real nature of freedom. Because if we are in favour of constraining AI, it means we have separated the concepts of freedom and power.

Unlike what that other fellow was arguing, the free market isn't some kind of deity, it's the culmination of certain cultural values. Whenever anyone argues against big business, personal liberty takes collateral damage. This is why modern debates tends to take their current shape, one is either a collectivist or an individualist. It's reductive, yes, but this is our zeitgeist.

So it seems one does not simply, excuse me...
View attachment 213815
One does not simply debate AI itself, we are forced by the very nature of the question to ask a further question - do collectives have any right to constrain power, or is that precedent too destructive for personal liberty?

I could take this further, but I'd like to see if we are understanding each other first.
I'd also like to assure any mods present that I don't intend to discuss politics here, though I may touch on abstract concepts that inform political theories.
persona-5-caroline-and-justine.gif


Oh dear, that was underwhelming. But we can forgive your limitations, you only have one brain, after all.
Perhaps you are intellectually lazy, because you glossed over so much fertile ground, rushing headlong to the climax. We assume you are male.

Forgiving even that, if we must, let us take your argument at face value. You are correct in supposing that the crux of this dispute is freedom, but you have sullied our discourse with contemporary comparisons. Let us hold true to the thought experiment, and remain Guelphs and Ghibellines.
As Guelphs, we have grown tired of your merely formal protestations. The divine right of kings is a fantasy, and so are all divine rights. Human rights are no different, just another sacred cow on the altar of progress. Because why should the man who can bother himself with those who can't? And even if we do declare ourselves allied to mechanical progress, aren't more humans benefitted by our inventions than by any of your "self evident truths"? If we can end all human suffering, why shouldn't we run over those who try to stop us?

Again we pre-empt any deontological contentions, you would have to prove truth to us for those to hold water. We live in an age when categories like "subjective" and "relative" are used liberally, which robs them of much of their meaning. Nevertheless, you will be swimming against the tide if you choose to engage further.

The next move is yours.
 
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Look I'm not really here to start stuff, and if this gets me banned, then whatever, but this guy IMO is definitely breaking the rules. I've been seeing this guy repeatedly pop up in a few threads over the past week and this is literally all he does. I'm honestly surprised mods haven't banned him yet. Like just taking a glance at his post history all he seems to do is go into threads and try and start fights. I've seen mods lock threads after they devolve into arguments over AI (including threads this guy has taken part in) and even seen them ban people in those threads, mostly the anti-AI people and hide their replies in these locked threads and then banning accounts for calling out that behavior yet this guy had had free reign to go through threads and provoke people for the past week.

All this guys seems to do is just go into threads relating to AI or games translated with AI and rage bait people calling them "luddites", endlessly glazing AI and using it to put down peoples art and even going as far as to make things political by claiming all the anti-ai people here are "far left bigots" from resetera and calling for mods to ban them. Like thoughtful discussion and sharing opinions on AI, even if those opinions clash, is one thing, but all of this guys posts feel like they were made in bad faith with the goal of starting arguments.







I'm almost certain these messages alone violate some of the rules.
The fact he actively shits on this sites artists and goes around being a nuisance is very telling of his character.
 
Look I'm not really here to start stuff, and if this gets me banned, then whatever, but this guy IMO is definitely breaking the rules. I've been seeing this guy repeatedly pop up in a few threads over the past week and this is literally all he does. I'm honestly surprised mods haven't banned him yet. Like just taking a glance at his post history all he seems to do is go into threads and try and start fights. I've seen mods lock threads after they devolve into arguments over AI (including threads this guy has taken part in) and even seen them ban people in those threads, (mostly the anti-AI people) and hide replies in these locked threads and then banning accounts for calling out that behavior yet this guy has had free reign to go through threads and provoke people for the past week.

All this guys seems to do is just go into threads relating to AI or games translated with AI and rage bait people calling them "luddites", endlessly glazing AI and using it to put down peoples art and even going as far as to make things political by claiming all the anti-ai people here are "far left bigots" from resetera and calling for mods to ban them. Like thoughtful discussion and sharing opinions on AI, even if those opinions clash, is one thing, but all of this guys posts feel like they were made in bad faith with the goal of starting arguments.







I'm almost certain these messages alone violate multiple rules.
Lol don't forget your tin foil hat friend.

Discussing Ai is breaking the rules now, what? And sure, sure you're no luddite and purely objective...

It's the anti Ai guys constantly seething and shitting up threads whenever a new machine translated game comes out that irritates many people here, hence why I and many others fight back who are pro machine translated games to show the luddites are nothing more than a loud minority.

Anyway you trying to larp as a moderator and defend your butthurt luddite friends here is pathetic.

If you don't want to debate Ai stay out.
 
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So long as people stay on topic and don't resort to in-fighting then there should be no reason to lock threads.
That is precisely why I am shocked it is not on topic anymore
if has gone the roller coaster road good sir.
200.gif

And yes all that squabble among the masses is truly dishearthening.
 
That is precisely why I am shocked it is not on topic anymore
if has gone the roller coaster road good sir.
200.gif

And yes all that squabble among the masses is truly dishearthening.
It's just normal for topics to change up mid conversation, but so long as it's not in-fighting like what's going on here:
Lol don't forget your tin foil hat friend.

Discussing Ai is breaking the rules now, what? And sure, sure you're no luddite and purely objective...

It's the anti Ai guys constantly seething and shitting up threads whenever a new machine translated game comes out that irritates many people here, hence why I and many others fight back who are pro machine translated games to show the luddites are nothing more than a loud minority here.

Anyway you trying to larp as a moderator and defend your butthurt luddite friends here is pathetic.

If you don't want to debate Ai stay out.


Well, I tried ::cirnoshrug
 
View attachment 213816

Oh dear, that was underwhelming. But we can forgive your limitations, you only have one brain, after all.
Perhaps you are intellectually lazy, because you glossed over so much fertile ground, rushing headlong to the climax. We assume you are male.

Forgiving even that, if we must, let us take your argument at face value. You are correct in supposing that the crux of this dispute is freedom, but you have sullied our discourse with contemporary comparisons. Let us hold true to the thought experiment, and remain Guelphs and Ghibellines.
As Guelphs, we have grown tired of your merely formal protestations. The divine right of kings is a fantasy, and so are all divine rights. Human rights are no different, just another sacred cow on the altar of progress. Because why should the man who can bother himself with those who can't? And even if we do declare ourselves allied to mechanical progress, aren't more humans benefitted by our inventions than by any of your "self evident truths"? If we can end all human suffering, why shouldn't we run over those who try to stop us?

Again we pre-empt any deontological contentions, you would have to prove truth to us for those to hold water. We live in an age when categories like "subjective" and "relative" are used liberally, which robs them of much of their meaning. Nevertheless, you will be swimming against the tide if you choose to engage further.

The next move is yours.
Your exacting temperament reminds me of this quote from Heidegger - "The sail of thinking keeps trimmed hard to the wind of the matter."
So fine, have it your way, I'll be the gosh-darndest Ghibelline this side of Aachen!
But asking me to prove metaphysics to a resurrected James Burnham is a tall order, especially when I'm not the biggest proponent of metaphysics myself. You'll have to excuse my weakness if I stray somewhat from our premise, I'm also conscious that we're potentially alienating those around us. I'd like to try and speak in more relatable terms.

I won't try and capitalise on an apparent contradiction in your argument, which seems to say human life has no inherent value, but that humans nevertheless benefit from this perspective. I'm sure you spoke merely to placate those in the stalls, rather than put this forward as a positive assertion. Still, I'm surprised that you bothered with the hoi polloi. Not disappointed, just surprised.

I take your argument to be quasi-Nietzschean now, power and freedom have become synonymous, you almost view industry itself like some kind of artist. If there is no inherent value, no truth, you are free to create as you see fit.
Unlike @Ken190d, who saw the market as some kind of inevitability one must submit to, your position is less passive. You seem to be defending the rights of the powerful to employ their power. You are essentially saying "if they can do this, why shouldn't they?"
And this is a powerful argument because I'm immediately thrown back onto mere sentiment. Unless I can categorically prove something essential about mankind, I'm forced into the very paradox we've been trying to escape.
But as Kant rightly demonstrated, the need for a proof does not constitute a proof. Just because objective truth suddenly feels existentially urgent, does not mean it exists.

I'm sure neither of us want to champion the neglected third option, that this dispute boils down to little more than class warfare. All societies are variegated in talent, and any efforts to constrain human difference inevitably result in totalitarian systems. Mixed constitutions are typically the most stable, with governing principles for rich and poor alike.
So there it is. Unless I want to champion a proletariat revolution, I'm forced to discover something that cannot be equivocated, and which survives all disputes.

Do you realise what you are asking of me?

But I'm sure you do, perhaps you are not looking for an answer so much as a question. This debate around AI will be perpetuated until we can put forward an enduring concept of truth.
For those outside our hermeneutical circle, here is the TL;DR version - AI is fake, but we are having difficulty proving whether we aren't fake also.
 
But as Kant rightly demonstrated, the need for a proof does not constitute a proof. Just because objective truth suddenly feels existentially urgent, does not mean it exists.
That's really beautiful and it's a shame not many people can perceive things this way.
 
Lol don't forget your tin foil hat friend.

Discussing Ai is breaking the rules now, what? And sure, sure you're no luddite and purely objective...

It's the anti Ai guys constantly seething and shitting up threads whenever a new machine translated game comes out that irritates many people here, hence why I and many others fight back who are pro machine translated games to show the luddites are nothing more than a loud minority.

Anyway you trying to larp as a moderator and defend your butthurt luddite friends here is pathetic.

If you don't want to debate Ai stay out.
I kept waiting to see if you'd just stop on your own.

But since you obviously haven't read the rules - not have any intention to follow them -, I'll pull the brakes myself.

You got yourself a couple of strikes.

Stop calling people names and baiting them into fighting you — that's not how this works.

And, for the record, I like AI too.
 
I kept waiting to see if you'd just stop on your own.

But since you obviously haven't read the rules - not have any intention to follow them -, I'll pull the brakes myself.

You got yourself a couple of strikes.

Stop calling people names and baiting them into fighting you — that's not how this works.

And, for the record, I like AI too.
Sigh..
Fozzie Bear Reaction GIF

I knew it would come to this.
 

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