Non-Gaming Hot Takes

[Lee__Kanker]

I'm fine with this so long as they actually develop the character realistically. People like that exist, but they get them wrong so often. They often fail to properly show what Cluster B disorders look like, or what an ideologue actually thinks, or how opportunists "justify" their behavior. Instead, they're a cackling cartoon who just doesn't sell that there's something off about them.

On that note, I think they need to retire the "genius psychopath." Look, I like Joker❉ stories as much as the next DC Comics fan, and Anthony Hopkins has great acting skills, but 99% of all stories that try to hype up psychopaths are brainlords ignore the fact that near 0% of them IRL are even average. These writers are using half-understood myths about Zodiac, Jeffrey Dahmer, and Ted Bundy (all bumbling idiots who had advantages not related to intelligence if you've read up on them in depth) as reference for characters that are 100 times smarter than anyone who behaves like them ever could be. In reality, Cluster B PDs correlate with low intelligence. You have to be pretty dumb to not only think random killings is a great hobby for a smart person, but also that you can get away with random killings again and again even after the police are after you.

❉ Note: I think Joker stories that try to explain his mind as a massively messed up metahuman power do better than the ones that try to argue he has a real mental problem. He's already canonically metahuman in the comics (immune to all chemicals), anyways.

Yeah it's fantasy, the joker wouldnt exist in realt life

 

[Ikagura]

don't worry. i'm slowly working on some stories that have characters that do shit because they want to, no tragic backstory, no "for the greater good" shit. just, "i can, i want to, and what the fuck are you going to do about?"
you don't have to make a character sympathetic to like them, you need to understand why they do things. being an asshole is a perfectly acceptable reason to do evil stuff.
and i hate the "human are the real monsters" shit. i just think of that bit from egoraptor's sequelitis video of mega man. "THEY'RE FALLING! THEY ARE FUCKING FALLING!! I CAN SEE THAT!! I'M GOING CRAZY HERE!!"

I feel that the "for the greater good" were at least one villain archetype that would be somewhat realistic in a non "black and white morality" franchise but sadly got misused.

But I dislike the whole "hard childhood" because it implies that kids having abusive parents will end up being abuser themselves systematically (and making jokes about the "quiet kid").

Also people should stop feeling bad for liking a villain. On the net it's easy to say "if your favourite character is the Joker then it's a red flag about you" when we are smart enough to know that liking isn't condoning.


Edit: Also I find it weird how they also correlate evil with geniuses. Like the most cliche villain name is "Doctor something" while good doctors are mostly for medicine (or they're being called Professor).

Yeah it's fantasy, the joker wouldn't exist in real life.

After reading The Killing Joke again, while I think The Joker does not need a backstory to exist, I can tell that even before he turned into what he is there was something uncanny about that person (as if he always had that madness going around before the incident finally unleashed it).

 

[Skeetos]

I feel that the "for the greater good" were at least one villain archetype that would be somewhat realistic in a non "black and white morality" franchise but sadly got misused.

But I dislike the whole "hard childhood" because it implies that kids having abusive parents will end up being abuser themselves systematically (and making jokes about the "quiet kid").

Also people should stop feeling bad for liking a villain. On the net it's easy to say "if your favourite character is the Joker then it's a red flag about you" when we are smart enough to know that liking isn't condoning.

I understand what you mean on the Abuse Trope. I went through a lot of childhood abuse. And I know what it feels like to in your mind know that help won't come. Obviously I lucked out and I was rescued by my grandparents. But I do think it's irritating when some of these shows and such try to make it out as if everyone who goes through that will be shitty eventually. Not trying to get all depressive and such but it's for me a complex I developed where I'm a bit afraid to have children because I don't want them to grow up the way I did. For me it's a scary thing from my past that I never want to unleash on someone myself. I know there are some who never let go and let it control them but for most I feel it isn't like that and a lot of the abuse survivors I've personally talked to are all pretty nice people.

 

[Tonberry]

liking a villain

I've been staring at this and wracking my brain trying to think what kind of villain I prefer.
I think my favorites are "villains of conviction" if that term makes sense, the ones that are so ride-or-die to their cause that they simply have to be stopped.
Such an unoriginal answer but I think Sephiroth might be my favorite villain. I can't even put my finger on why, but I like his entire arc, and he's cool and scary as hell.

My hot take is that I've always preferred heroes over villains

 

[Ikagura]

I understand what you mean on the Abuse Trope. I went through a lot of childhood abuse. And I know what it feels like to in your mind know that help won't come. Obviously I lucked out and I was rescued by my grandparents. But I do think it's irritating when some of these shows and such try to make it out as if everyone who goes through that will be shitty eventually. Not trying to get all depressive and such but it's for me a complex I developed where I'm a bit afraid to have children because I don't want them to grow up the way I did. For me it's a scary thing from my past that I never want to unleash on someone myself. I know there are some who never let go and let it control them but for most I feel it isn't like that and a lot of the abuse survivors I've personally talked to are all pretty nice people.

I heard someone telling how the Halloween remake completely missed the point by making the antagonist a kid from a poor family with a toxic environment when the original was actually a kid from a wealthy one which makes that even scarier.

Sometimes I think that media should stop telling that if someone is from a poor environment they could never evolve out of it which goes against the very idea of freedom in a way.

This reminds me of that poster from BioShock Infinite

I've been staring at this and wracking my brain trying to think what kind of villain I prefer.
I think my favorites are "villains of conviction" if that term makes sense, the ones that are so ride-or-die to their cause that they simply have to be stopped.
Such an unoriginal answer but I think Sephiroth might be my favorite villain. I can't even put my finger on why, but I like his entire arc, and he's cool and scary as hell.

Sephiroth is a special case because he's the result of Shinra's unethical experiments. I firmly believe that, ultimately, Shinra is the overarching antagonist of FFVII as a whole.

But personally I'm a more classic guy and Exdeath is my fav FF antagonist.

My hot take is that I've always preferred heroes over villains

I kinda like antiheroes (when they're done good enough).

 

[Tonberry]

Shinra is the overarching antagonist of FFVII as a whole

Oh, absolutely. Hojo could very well be pegged as the mastermind antagonist, but Sephiroth is the biggest threat, so we fight him last.

Exdeath is godtier. "MWUHUHUH" as he said.

I kinda like antiheroes (when they're done good enough).

Yeah they're fine too. Ultimately, all protagonists and antagonists are good if they carry their weight in a story and are engaging. I played Persona 3 last year and that game was a roller coaster of dogshit villains (aside from one in particular but I don't wanna spoil for anyone), but the heroes were all so engaging that it made up for it.
I'm a sucker for boyscout heroes like Superman though. I just think it's comfy

 

[MasterEn]

I feel that the "for the greater good" were at least one villain archetype that would be somewhat realistic in a non "black and white morality" franchise but sadly got misused.

But I dislike the whole "hard childhood" because it implies that kids having abusive parents will end up being abuser themselves systematically (and making jokes about the "quiet kid").

Also people should stop feeling bad for liking a villain. On the net it's easy to say "if your favourite character is the Joker then it's a red flag about you" when we are smart enough to know that liking isn't condoning.


Edit: Also I find it weird how they also correlate evil with geniuses. Like the most cliche villain name is "Doctor something" while good doctors are mostly for medicine (or they're being called Professor).


After reading The Killing Joke again, while I think The Joker does not need a backstory to exist, I can tell that even before he turned into what he is there was something uncanny about that person (as if he always had that madness going around before the incident finally unleashed it).

it is. real life isn't clear cut and stories don't have to be either. most stories start off black ad white and blend the two as the story goes on and finds its footing.
some kids do end up mimicking the bad behaviors that their parents show off. usually hero-type characters can ignore that and remain good people. some people and characters crack under the pressure if exposed to it for too long.
a good villain is one that ends up being liked by most fans of a series. kefka, sephiroth and kuja from the final fantasy series are liked by fans, and they are all assholes who either ruin a planet, killed the flower princess or straight up blew a planet up. lots of people like the joker because of his no shits given personality and charisma. and he is pretty stylish to boot.
there are strange things in this world. if i remember correctly, the smartest man on the planet lives in complete isolation in the middle of the woods in the middle of the US. he could solve several major crises but he doesn't. he was asked once why he didn't. he does not like humanity. he will not help at all.
the professor and doctor thing might be related to dr. Frankenstein, since he was considered to be a "mad scientist". professors are usually seen as providers of knowledge and well respected by most people. doctors also have a reputation of basically be snake oil salesman throughout most of human history, so there's that as well.
the joker seems more like he slowly absorbs things he hears from other people and cobbled all of that together to come up with what is thought to be his backstory. if i remember correctly, he himself doesn't know or remember his life before he became the clown prince of crime.

 

[Skeetos]

I heard someone telling how the Halloween remake completely missed the point by making the antagonist a kid from a poor family with a toxic environment when the original was actually a kid from a wealthy one which makes that even scarier.

Sometimes I think that media should stop telling that if someone is from a poor environment they could never evolve out of it which goes against the very idea of freedom in a way.

This reminds me of that poster from BioShock InfiniteView attachment 19342


Sephiroth is a special case because he's the result of Shinra's unethical experiments. I firmly believe that, ultimately, Shinra is the overarching antagonist of FFVII as a whole.

But personally I'm a more classic guy and Exdeath is my fav FF antagonist.


I kinda like antiheroes (when they're done good enough).

Oh man, Rob Zombie Halloween. I hate those movies, it's brutal in the way of just doing it to be edgy more so than trying to say something. Which would be fine, if half of the things that happen in the movie were handled with more etiquette. And anyone who watched it can tell exactly the thing I'm talking about here. I do agree with the idea that Michael's adult actor was a really good fit though, man is built.
Also the tragedy of Bioshock Infinite is still felt to this day. I loved the Civil War story that was happening and I wish it would've came out the way it was originally intended to instead of that part taking a backseat to time travel.

 

[miguk]

Love the implication that people with Cluster B personality disorders are evil. Classy. /s

People with narcissistic personality disorder are horribly abusive to those around them. People with anti-social personality disorder not only constantly abuse others, but in extreme cases (colloquially called psychopathy) murder them. And having had to file a serial harassment complaint against a histrionic person, I can tell you they aren't exactly fun to hang out with. Even borderline personality disorder, which involves more self-harm than harm to others, can be a threat to others due to the lack of risk aversion.

Normally, I would not push the idea that people with mental disorders are dangerous. In fact, most really dangerous people (mass shooters, for instance) aren't mentally ill, but motivated by ideological views that make them perceive others as a threat. That said, Cluster B disordered people are pretty damn dangerous at minimum to others' mental health, and often to their physical safety as well. I named 3 actual real-life CBPD people who were utterly horrific because of their disorder, so that should be obvious.

And note I never said evil. Neither did the post I replied to. The word they used was "villain". Maybe "antagonist" would be a better term for it, but someone cutting another person open to "prove" they are smarter than everyone else isn't particularly beyond being judged.

 

[Skeetos]

it is. real life isn't clear cut and stories don't have to be either. most stories start off black ad white and blend the two as the story goes on and finds its footing.
some kids do end up mimicking the bad behaviors that their parents show off. usually hero-type characters can ignore that and remain good people. some people and characters crack under the pressure if exposed to it for too long.
a good villain is one that ends up being liked by most fans of a series. kefka, sephiroth and kuja from the final fantasy series are liked by fans, and they are all assholes who either ruin a planet, killed the flower princess or straight up blew a planet up. lots of people like the joker because of his no shits given personality and charisma. and he is pretty stylish to boot.
there are strange things in this world. if i remember correctly, the smartest man on the planet lives in complete isolation in the middle of the woods in the middle of the US. he could solve several major crises but he doesn't. he was asked once why he didn't. he does not like humanity. he will not help at all.
the professor and doctor thing might be related to dr. Frankenstein, since he was considered to be a "mad scientist". professors are usually seen as providers of knowledge and well respected by most people. doctors also have a reputation of basically be snake oil salesman throughout most of human history, so there's that as well.
the joker seems more like he slowly absorbs things he hears from other people and cobbled all of that together to come up with what is thought to be his backstory. if i remember correctly, he himself doesn't know or remember his life before he became the clown prince of crime.

I don't fully remember the context but that scene from Batman TAS I think it was where Harley is in denial about her true status with Joker and Batman hits her with "What story did he tell you this time" is peak Joker writing. The Joaquin Phoenix Joker really hit us with an era that doesn't really understand the character even though the Joker in that film is a copycat.

 

[MasterEn]

Oh, absolutely. Hojo could very well be pegged as the mastermind antagonist, but Sephiroth is the biggest threat, so we fight him last.

i never beat 7, but i did defeat dr. hojo; so as far as i am concerned, he is the final boss and the rest of the game is the epilogue, like in ffx; you beat braska's final aeon, and then the rest is the ending of the story.

 

[Ikagura]

Oh, absolutely. Hojo could very well be pegged as the mastermind antagonist, but Sephiroth is the biggest threat, so we fight him last.

Sephiroth is more like Cloud's personal antagonist in the story (which is why he's still haunting him in the sequels and even in Smash Bros).

Of course, in many JRPGs the final antagonist is some sort of deity for some reason I cannot explain (or a Demon King in the older classics like like Dragon Quest or even some eldritch being in rare cases).

Exdeath is godtier. "MWUHUHUH" as he said.

I think it's interesting that unlike a villain that want to destroy or rule over the world one that wants to reduce everything into nothingness is quite a radically different motive that has no rational explanation. Even Kefka who's mad (like the Joker in a way) and wants total destruction still has some sanity in self preservation.

Yeah they're fine too. Ultimately, all protagonists and antagonists are good if they carry their weight in a story and are engaging. I played Persona 3 last year and that game was a roller coaster of dogshit villains (aside from one in particular but I don't wanna spoil for anyone), but the heroes were all so engaging that it made up for it.

Someone told me that a good story is also a good antagonist. Star Wars without Dark Vador wouldn't have been as successful imo.

I'm a sucker for boyscout heroes like Superman though. I just think it's comfy

Same even if they are criticised for being "bland" or "naive" but I think that protagonists like Jonathan Joestar are getting so rare nowadays they ironically feel refreshing to see.

A small bonus video summarising the guy in question

I don't fully remember the context but that scene from Batman TAS I think it was where Harley is in denial about her true status with Joker and Batman hits her with "What story did he tell you this time" is peak Joker writing. The Joaquin Phoenix Joker really hit us with an era that doesn't really understand the character even though the Joker in that film is a copycat.

I do miss when people didn't forget that the Joker is, according to his name, a clown.

Too bad most people stayed with Dark Knight's Heath Ledger in mind (which is a great actor I won't say the contrary)... Enough "Society" talk more gags that will let its audience die of laughter, literally!

 

[Tonberry]

i never beat 7, but i did defeat dr. hojo; so as far as i am concerned, he is the final boss and the rest of the game is the epilogue

Well then you should probably beat it so you have the full picture You're like three hours from the ending if you beat Hojo!

Same even if they are criticised for being "bland" or "naive" but I think that protagonists like Jonathan Joestar are getting so rare nowadays they ironically feel refreshing to see.

Yeah those are my feeling exactly, too. I like heroes who aren't just good, they're nice too!

 

[Somnia]

I understand what you mean on the Abuse Trope. I went through a lot of childhood abuse. And I know what it feels like to in your mind know that help won't come. Obviously I lucked out and I was rescued by my grandparents. But I do think it's irritating when some of these shows and such try to make it out as if everyone who goes through that will be shitty eventually. Not trying to get all depressive and such but it's for me a complex I developed where I'm a bit afraid to have children because I don't want them to grow up the way I did. For me it's a scary thing from my past that I never want to unleash on someone myself. I know there are some who never let go and let it control them but for most I feel it isn't like that and a lot of the abuse survivors I've personally talked to are all pretty nice people.

The best way to do this sort of thing without causing confusion is to have the hero's origin mirror that of the antagonist. It isn't at all a hot take, but the whole thing of having sympathetic villains that everyone agrees with ideologically until they just randomly decide that the solution to the problem is genocide or world domination is exhausting. You could fill the 10k character limit with examples of the trope and its just sooooo lame because most of the time the stories are resolved with the villain defeated and 0 systemic change to play off of the villain being correct. It is the ultimate cowardice of writers to highlight a problem to push the plot but never allow the heroes to explore that. The reasons why are varied and generally sinister behind-the-scenes industry nonsense, but it sucks regardless.

So, if you can't at least have the heroes work off of the villain's correct ideology yet misguided aims to fix the world for future generations, you can at least have the hero and villain share a background and use that to highlight the classic "you always have a choice" moral.

 

[MasterEn]

Of course, in many JRPGs the final antagonist is some sort of deity for some reason I cannot explain (or a Demon King in the older classics like like Dragon Quest or even some eldritch being in rare cases).

it is literally "it looks cool." that's why evangelion has all of the Christian imagery in it. they thought it was cool. in an interview, staff members said if they knew what impact that would have, they would have completely avoided that stuff.
there's no deep meaning to it. just: "that looks cool, let's add that in."

Post automatically merged: Thursday at 10:21 PM

Well then you should probably beat it so you have the full picture You're like three hours from the ending if you beat Hojo!

i got to safer seppiroth, but he one shot'ed my team and i just stopped. years later i was chatting with a friend and i told him about it. he asked what my levels were. i was level 50. he said i was 15 levels short of what i needed to be at.
based on my experience with psx ff4, i decided that i didn''t want to grind up that many extra levels. it would be boring.

 

[fake-kun]

People with narcissistic personality disorder are horribly abusive to those around them. People with anti-social personality disorder not only constantly abuse others, but in extreme cases (colloquially called psychopathy) murder them. And having had to file a serial harassment complaint against a histrionic person, I can tell you they aren't exactly fun to hang out with. Even borderline personality disorder, which involves more self-harm than harm to others, can be a threat to others due to the lack of risk aversion.

Normally, I would not push the idea that people with mental disorders are dangerous. In fact, most really dangerous people (mass shooters, for instance) aren't mentally ill, but motivated by ideological views that make them perceive others as a threat. That said, Cluster B disordered people are pretty damn dangerous at minimum to others' mental health, and often to their physical safety as well. I named 3 actual real-life CBPD people who were utterly horrific because of their disorder, so that should be obvious.

And note I never said evil. Neither did the post I replied to. The word they used was "villain". Maybe "antagonist" would be a better term for it, but someone cutting another person open to "prove" they are smarter than everyone else isn't particularly beyond being judged.

It's funny that you bring up your personal experience to spout this crap because I have interacted with people with Cluster B personality disorders as well. Most of them had history of being abused that directly led to their disorders. They also never did anything you said they're supposed to do. In fact, you wouldn't be able to tell with many of them they have a disorder because they learned to mask so well.

Also, some criminals having a Cluster B personality disorders doesn't mean shit.

 

[Somnia]

if i remember correctly, the smartest man on the planet lives in complete isolation in the middle of the woods in the middle of the US. he could solve several major crises but he doesn't. he was asked once why he didn't. he does not like humanity. he will not help at all.

If you're talking about the dork I think you're talking about - Chris Langan - then you're conflating IQ with actual intelligence or ability in a field.

 

[Ikagura]

i never beat 7, but i did defeat dr. hojo; so as far as i am concerned, he is the final boss and the rest of the game is the epilogue, like in ffx; you beat braska's final aeon, and then the rest is the ending of the story.

To be honest I think that VII suffers from some filler-ish moments around.

I also think that JENOVA has been underused. She was shown as the major antagonist and the one responsible to everything that happened in the game yet you just defeat her several times as a normal boss despite the cool theme...

The thread she represents is kinda lessened by how Sephiroth and Shinra basically just used her as a tool.

Same with how Yevon is the true antagonist of X yet it's a miserable tick like parasite.

It's funny that you bring up your personal experience to spout this crap because I have interacted with people with Cluster B personality disorders as well. Most of them had history of being abused that directly led to their disorders. They also never did anything you said they're supposed to do. In fact, you wouldn't be able to tell with many of them they have a disorder because they learned to mask so well.

Also, some criminals having a Cluster B personality disorders doesn't mean shit.

You seem to get overly reactive over some things there (like yesterday).

I'd like the topic to not get locked nor having people kicked/banned over arguments please.

If you're talking about the dork I think you're talking about - Chris Langan - then you're conflating IQ with actual intelligence or ability in a field.

People forget that we have several intelligences, not just one.

It's like with memory.

 

[MasterEn]

If you're talking about the dork I think you're talking about - Chris Langan - then you're conflating IQ with actual intelligence or ability in a field.

probably. i read about that once in an uncle john's bathroom reader years ago. i barely remember anything else about it. don't even remember his name.

 

[Ikagura]

it is literally "it looks cool." that's why evangelion has all of the Christian imagery in it. they thought it was cool. in an interview, staff members said if they knew what impact that would have, they would have completely avoided that stuff.
there's no deep meaning to it. just: "that looks cool, let's add that in."

I'll be honest, NGE kinda screwed me up because I thought that the "angels" that came attacking Tokyo 3 were the actual, biblical angels rather than just big aliens coming from outer space.

 

[Tonberry]

it is literally "it looks cool." that's why evangelion has all of the Christian imagery in it. they thought it was cool. in an interview, staff members said if they knew what impact that would have, they would have completely avoided that stuff.
there's no deep meaning to it. just: "that looks cool, let's add that in."

There are lots of instances where religious imagery is more than "it looks cool". Sometimes it's not, but it's not like it's never there. Final Fantasy 7, for example, is chock full of gnostic allusions (among others) throughout the whole thing, interwoven into the whole narrative.

i got to safer seppiroth

Ah okay! I was more just referring to the fact that there is an actual epilogue. If you don't beat Sephiroth the planet's done for, so it's still very much a part of the final act.

 

[NobodyHere]

I heard someone telling how the Halloween remake completely missed the point by making the antagonist a kid from a poor family with a toxic environment when the original was actually a kid from a wealthy one which makes that even scarier.

Sometimes I think that media should stop telling that if someone is from a poor environment they could never evolve out of it which goes against the very idea of freedom in a way.

This reminds me of that poster from BioShock InfiniteView attachment 19342


Sephiroth is a special case because he's the result of Shinra's unethical experiments. I firmly believe that, ultimately, Shinra is the overarching antagonist of FFVII as a whole.

But personally I'm a more classic guy and Exdeath is my fav FF antagonist.


I kinda like antiheroes (when they're done good enough).

Honest my view on the whole thing is that a lot of the time it’s an easy/ lazy way to write a tragic villain (absolutely doesn’t excuse or change the fact it’s framing those who come from abuse/poverty as evil), or explain why their evil.

I understand what you mean on the Abuse Trope. I went through a lot of childhood abuse. And I know what it feels like to in your mind know that help won't come. Obviously I lucked out and I was rescued by my grandparents. But I do think it's irritating when some of these shows and such try to make it out as if everyone who goes through that will be shitty eventually. Not trying to get all depressive and such but it's for me a complex I developed where I'm a bit afraid to have children because I don't want them to grow up the way I did. For me it's a scary thing from my past that I never want to unleash on someone myself. I know there are some who never let go and let it control them but for most I feel it isn't like that and a lot of the abuse survivors I've personally talked to are all pretty nice people.

I also have experience with abuse towards myself and those I care for. For me it pushes me to be better in fear of becoming like the people that hurt me, well also wanting to be be able to protect those who have suffered from similar situations, or try to prevent them entirely if possible.

 

[fake-kun]

You seem to get overly reactive over some things there (like yesterday).

I'd like the topic to not get locked nor having people kicked/banned over arguments please.

Try struggling with being neurodivergent and we'll see how calm and nice you'll be.

 

[Tonberry]

Try struggling with being neurodivergent and we'll see how calm and nice you'll be.

You're entitled to your reactions of course, but sometimes it's better to ignore posts that one disagrees with, instead of being confrontative, because it usually just leads to threads derailing which makes it harder for everyone who wants to talk about the topic at hand.

Besides, both your and miguk's post were anecdotal, which never really matters in the long run as far as evidence goes. Miguk's post was infinitely more judgmental, though.

Again, I don't even think you're wrong, but lashing out with off-topic hostility isn't productive for the thread.

 

[Ikagura]

Also the tragedy of Bioshock Infinite is still felt to this day. I loved the Civil War story that was happening and I wish it would've came out the way it was originally intended to instead of that part taking a backseat to time travel.

I could go on all day about how dissapointed I got with this entry.

But this is the non gaming hot take topic.