Hot takes

[Ikagura Ikagura]

Oh, absolutely. Hojo could very well be pegged as the mastermind antagonist, but Sephiroth is the biggest threat, so we fight him last.

Sephiroth is more like Cloud's personal antagonist in the story (which is why he's still haunting him in the sequels and even in Smash Bros).

Of course, in many JRPGs the final antagonist is some sort of deity for some reason I cannot explain (or a Demon King in the older classics like like Dragon Quest or even some eldritch being in rare cases).

Exdeath is godtier. "MWUHUHUH" as he said.

I think it's interesting that unlike a villain that want to destroy or rule over the world one that wants to reduce everything into nothingness is quite a radically different motive that has no rational explanation. Even Kefka who's mad (like the Joker in a way) and wants total destruction still has some sanity in self preservation.

Yeah they're fine too. Ultimately, all protagonists and antagonists are good if they carry their weight in a story and are engaging. I played Persona 3 last year and that game was a roller coaster of dogshit villains (aside from one in particular but I don't wanna spoil for anyone), but the heroes were all so engaging that it made up for it.

Someone told me that a good story is also a good antagonist. Star Wars without Dark Vador wouldn't have been as successful imo.

I'm a sucker for boyscout heroes like Superman though. I just think it's comfy :)

Same even if they are criticised for being "bland" or "naive" but I think that protagonists like Jonathan Joestar are getting so rare nowadays they ironically feel refreshing to see.

A small bonus video summarising the guy in question

I don't fully remember the context but that scene from Batman TAS I think it was where Harley is in denial about her true status with Joker and Batman hits her with "What story did he tell you this time" is peak Joker writing. The Joaquin Phoenix Joker really hit us with an era that doesn't really understand the character even though the Joker in that film is a copycat.

I do miss when people didn't forget that the Joker is, according to his name, a clown.

Too bad most people stayed with Dark Knight's Heath Ledger in mind (which is a great actor I won't say the contrary)... Enough "Society" talk more gags that will let its audience die of laughter, literally!

 

[Tonberry]

i never beat 7, but i did defeat dr. hojo; so as far as i am concerned, he is the final boss and the rest of the game is the epilogue

Well then you should probably beat it so you have the full picture ;) You're like three hours from the ending if you beat Hojo!

Same even if they are criticised for being "bland" or "naive" but I think that protagonists like Jonathan Joestar are getting so rare nowadays they ironically feel refreshing to see.

Yeah those are my feeling exactly, too. I like heroes who aren't just good, they're nice too!

 

[Lena CE]

I understand what you mean on the Abuse Trope. I went through a lot of childhood abuse. And I know what it feels like to in your mind know that help won't come. Obviously I lucked out and I was rescued by my grandparents. But I do think it's irritating when some of these shows and such try to make it out as if everyone who goes through that will be shitty eventually. Not trying to get all depressive and such but it's for me a complex I developed where I'm a bit afraid to have children because I don't want them to grow up the way I did. For me it's a scary thing from my past that I never want to unleash on someone myself. I know there are some who never let go and let it control them but for most I feel it isn't like that and a lot of the abuse survivors I've personally talked to are all pretty nice people.

The best way to do this sort of thing without causing confusion is to have the hero's origin mirror that of the antagonist. It isn't at all a hot take, but the whole thing of having sympathetic villains that everyone agrees with ideologically until they just randomly decide that the solution to the problem is genocide or world domination is exhausting. You could fill the 10k character limit with examples of the trope and its just sooooo lame because most of the time the stories are resolved with the villain defeated and 0 systemic change to play off of the villain being correct. It is the ultimate cowardice of writers to highlight a problem to push the plot but never allow the heroes to explore that. The reasons why are varied and generally sinister behind-the-scenes industry nonsense, but it sucks regardless.

So, if you can't at least have the heroes work off of the villain's correct ideology yet misguided aims to fix the world for future generations, you can at least have the hero and villain share a background and use that to highlight the classic "you always have a choice" moral.

 

[MasterEn]

Of course, in many JRPGs the final antagonist is some sort of deity for some reason I cannot explain (or a Demon King in the older classics like like Dragon Quest or even some eldritch being in rare cases).

it is literally "it looks cool." that's why evangelion has all of the Christian imagery in it. they thought it was cool. in an interview, staff members said if they knew what impact that would have, they would have completely avoided that stuff.
there's no deep meaning to it. just: "that looks cool, let's add that in."

Post automatically merged: Jan 30, 2025

Well then you should probably beat it so you have the full picture ;) You're like three hours from the ending if you beat Hojo!

i got to safer seppiroth, but he one shot'ed my team and i just stopped. years later i was chatting with a friend and i told him about it. he asked what my levels were. i was level 50. he said i was 15 levels short of what i needed to be at.
based on my experience with psx ff4, i decided that i didn''t want to grind up that many extra levels. it would be boring.

 

[Lena CE]

if i remember correctly, the smartest man on the planet lives in complete isolation in the middle of the woods in the middle of the US. he could solve several major crises but he doesn't. he was asked once why he didn't. he does not like humanity. he will not help at all.

If you're talking about the dork I think you're talking about - Chris Langan - then you're conflating IQ with actual intelligence or ability in a field.

 

[MasterEn]

If you're talking about the dork I think you're talking about - Chris Langan - then you're conflating IQ with actual intelligence or ability in a field.

probably. i read about that once in an uncle john's bathroom reader years ago. i barely remember anything else about it. don't even remember his name.

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

it is literally "it looks cool." that's why evangelion has all of the Christian imagery in it. they thought it was cool. in an interview, staff members said if they knew what impact that would have, they would have completely avoided that stuff.
there's no deep meaning to it. just: "that looks cool, let's add that in."

I'll be honest, NGE kinda screwed me up because I thought that the "angels" that came attacking Tokyo 3 were the actual, biblical angels rather than just big aliens coming from outer space.

 

[Tonberry]

it is literally "it looks cool." that's why evangelion has all of the Christian imagery in it. they thought it was cool. in an interview, staff members said if they knew what impact that would have, they would have completely avoided that stuff.
there's no deep meaning to it. just: "that looks cool, let's add that in."

There are lots of instances where religious imagery is more than "it looks cool". Sometimes it's not, but it's not like it's never there. Final Fantasy 7, for example, is chock full of gnostic allusions (among others) throughout the whole thing, interwoven into the whole narrative.

i got to safer seppiroth

Ah okay! I was more just referring to the fact that there is an actual epilogue. If you don't beat Sephiroth the planet's done for, so it's still very much a part of the final act.

 

[NobodyHere]

I heard someone telling how the Halloween remake completely missed the point by making the antagonist a kid from a poor family with a toxic environment when the original was actually a kid from a wealthy one which makes that even scarier.

Sometimes I think that media should stop telling that if someone is from a poor environment they could never evolve out of it which goes against the very idea of freedom in a way.

This reminds me of that poster from BioShock InfiniteView attachment 19342


Sephiroth is a special case because he's the result of Shinra's unethical experiments. I firmly believe that, ultimately, Shinra is the overarching antagonist of FFVII as a whole.

But personally I'm a more classic guy and Exdeath is my fav FF antagonist.


I kinda like antiheroes (when they're done good enough).

Honest my view on the whole thing is that a lot of the time it’s an easy/ lazy way to write a tragic villain (absolutely doesn’t excuse or change the fact it’s framing those who come from abuse/poverty as evil), or explain why their evil.

I understand what you mean on the Abuse Trope. I went through a lot of childhood abuse. And I know what it feels like to in your mind know that help won't come. Obviously I lucked out and I was rescued by my grandparents. But I do think it's irritating when some of these shows and such try to make it out as if everyone who goes through that will be shitty eventually. Not trying to get all depressive and such but it's for me a complex I developed where I'm a bit afraid to have children because I don't want them to grow up the way I did. For me it's a scary thing from my past that I never want to unleash on someone myself. I know there are some who never let go and let it control them but for most I feel it isn't like that and a lot of the abuse survivors I've personally talked to are all pretty nice people.

I also have experience with abuse towards myself and those I care for. For me it pushes me to be better in fear of becoming like the people that hurt me, well also wanting to be be able to protect those who have suffered from similar situations, or try to prevent them entirely if possible.

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

Also the tragedy of Bioshock Infinite is still felt to this day. I loved the Civil War story that was happening and I wish it would've came out the way it was originally intended to instead of that part taking a backseat to time travel.

I could go on all day about how dissapointed I got with this entry.

But this is the non gaming hot take topic.

 

[Tonberry]

But this is the non gaming hot take topic.

Oh shit you're right.

Basketball > All other ball sports

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

Basketball > All other ball sports

I'll get bold and say that I prefer "ball-less" sports since you can do exercises without requiring a special tool nor terrain.

 

[Tonberry]

I'll get bold and say that I prefer "ball-less" sports since you can do exercises without requiring a special tool nor terrain.

Like what? I'm asking because I have a really hard time thinking of any that aren't a martial art that still requires some sort of "tool" haha

Oh, and I mainly meant from the pov of a spectator, not actually playing the sport.

(I'm sorry that my grammar is worsening by the post, I'm tired lol)

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

Like what? I'm asking because I have a really hard time thinking of any that aren't a martial art that still requires some sort of "tool" haha

Push-ups? Running?

 

[Tonberry]

Push-ups? Running?

True. I'd probably call those forms of exercise more than sports (especially push-ups), but fair enough! As you can see by my avatar, I'm not exactly a master at push-ups.

 

[NobodyHere]

True. I'd probably call those forms of exercise more than sports (especially push-ups), but fair enough! As you can see by my avatar, I'm not exactly a master at push-ups.

Doing even just a little yoga can be good for you, talking about the benefits it can reduce inflammation, help with lower back pain, improve flexibility and strength .

 

[Tonberry]

Doing even just a little yoga can be good for you, talking about the benefits it can reduce inflammation, help with lower back pain, improve flexibility and strength .

Oh don't worry about me. I'm in fact not an obese suit of armour in real life. My favorite methods of exercise are walking, biking and swimming.
I'm far from fit though ?

 

[MasterEn]

There are lots of instances where religious imagery is more than "it looks cool". Sometimes it's not, but it's not like it's never there. Final Fantasy 7, for example, is chock full of gnostic allusions (among others) throughout the whole thing, interwoven into the whole narrative.


Ah okay! I was more just referring to the fact that there is an actual epilogue. If you don't beat Sephiroth the planet's done for, so it's still very much a part of the final act.

yeah, but it feels like its outweighed by the other instances of 'its just there because we like it. ff2 does the heaven and hell stuff better.
while i didn't beat 7, i did watch that movie recap that was included in advent children, so i do know the general gist of it.

 

[NobodyHere]

Oh don't worry about me. I'm in fact not an obese suit of armour in real life. My favorite methods of exercise are walking, biking and swimming.
I'm far from fit though ?

Didn’t actually think you were, just an suggestion of something you could easily do

 

[Lena CE]

it is literally "it looks cool." that's why evangelion has all of the Christian imagery in it. they thought it was cool. in an interview, staff members said if they knew what impact that would have, they would have completely avoided that stuff.
there's no deep meaning to it. just: "that looks cool, let's add that in."

Doesn't really matter thanks to death of the author and all that. No amount of authorial intent will stop me from feeling and reacting to something in the way I do, especially if I only understand the authorial intent in-full after consuming the media itself.

Also, your friend wasn't entirely correct on Safer Sephiroth. There are plenty of materia and items that can help you overcome the 5-10 level disparity you had. Not that it matters much at this point lol

 

[Tonberry]

Didn’t actually think you were, just an suggestion of something you could easily do

Wait, you're NOT the spirit of a little boy in a suit of armor?!

 

[MasterEn]

Doesn't really matter thanks to death of the author and all that. No amount of authorial intent will stop me from feeling and reacting to something in the way I do, especially if I only understand the authorial intent in-full after consuming the media itself.

Also, your friend wasn't entirely correct on Safer Sephiroth. There are plenty of materia and items that can help you overcome the 5-10 level disparity you had. Not that it matters much at this point lol

have you heard about what happened to hideaki anno during evangelion's original run? it adds a lot of context to the visuals in evangelion. the "looks cool" thing is what production staff members said. i don't recall if anno was ever interviewed around that time about eva.
i sucked at the game. i think yuffie took most of my stuff while i was recruiting her. i didn't know about the side quests and somehow, i failed most of the ones that i did find. it wouldn't have help to find the extra material.

 

[miguk miguk]

You're entitled to your reactions of course, but sometimes it's better to ignore posts that one disagrees with, instead of being confrontative, because it usually just leads to threads derailing which makes it harder for everyone who wants to talk about the topic at hand.

Besides, both your and miguk's post were anecdotal, which never really matters in the long run as far as evidence goes. Miguk's post was infinitely more judgmental, though.

Again, I don't even think you're wrong, but lashing out with off-topic hostility isn't productive for the thread.

Okay, I was going to just ignore you for what you're doing, but this is the second time you've done it, with the second problem this thread had.

You are not helping, and you do not know how to do it right. And you are making things worse.

Each time you've tried to "moderate", you've placed the blame on me. You haven't been objective; you've just looked at the fact that I was talking about a subject which involved art critique (not even critique of people) and someone reacting emotionally to it, and you decided I'm to blame. That is not how moderation works.

Just stop. You're not the moderator here, and you aren't doing anything that earns the position. You're just egging on people who are already in an emotional state and making it worse.

 

[Lena CE]

have you heard about what happened to hideaki anno during evangelion's original run? it adds a lot of context to the visuals in evangelion. the "looks cool" thing is what production staff members said. i don't recall if anno was ever interviewed around that time about eva.
i sucked at the game. i think yuffie took most of my stuff while i was recruiting her. i didn't know about the side quests and somehow, i failed most of the ones that i did find. it wouldn't have help to find the extra material.

Yea I love NGE so I've scoured the internet for years and years for every morsel of info I can get my hands on. Still can't view the religious stuff as simply "cool window dressing" because no matter how many rewatches I commit to it just never registers as that vapid to me.

For FF7, you may have been surprised! A couple hero drinks, the Big Guard and White Wind skills and more would all have fixed any issues you'd have been having on their own, let alone if you combined any of them together in a run. FF7 is kind of wild because it is probably the single best example of a game that just lets players become ludicrously overpowered at almost all stages of the game for minimal effort so long as you understand the mechanics or get a couple good tips from someone in the know. I love it for that, feels like everytime I replay it I find some new way to break it apart either through a simple materia combination or an elaborate strategy to get something early. Obviously, it's a hefty commitment to replay, but if you ever do, I'd be down to throw a couple quick tips your way to make the game fairly smooth sailing with minimal effort.

 

[MasterEn]

To be honest I think that VII suffers from some filler-ish moments around.

I also think that JENOVA has been underused. She was shown as the major antagonist and the one responsible to everything that happened in the game yet you just defeat her several times as a normal boss despite the cool theme...

The thread she represents is kinda lessened by how Sephiroth and Shinra basically just used her as a tool.

Same with how Yevon is the true antagonist of X yet it's a miserable tick like parasite.

7 had a very troubled development.
started off as an snes game
you were a detective; cloud, tifa, aerith and barret were criminals [at least at the start, they might have joined you later]
jumped to the n64, cancelled
jumped to the psx one and a half years into development.
zack was accidently created after someone mastered the power of the color of yellow. [yellow is apparently the absolutely hardest color for computers to render, apparently. that's why tidus is blonde and why terra and the onion knight in dissidia are blonde too.]
this is why disc 1 feels the best and most content filled. it's the only part that they were able to fully work on.
i forget half the time that jenova is a thing. i do remember the theme being good.
not sure what you mean by "thread she represents".
yeah, i don't know what happened there. my best guess is that him being a bug is supposed to represent him losing all humanity and becoming some far less than human.