Gatekeeping

[Inkingsama]

Just musing, but a lot of what I see in this thread is people complaining about perceived shifts in gaming industry/society as a whole, using that as a reason to say that gatekeeping is good, but failing to actually describe what steps would be taken for this "gatekeeping" and how it prevents the said creep that they perceive to be an issue in the games industry.

I'm getting the sense that a lot of it boils down to "don't talk about my favorite series outside of established in-groups so it can't get popular and be ruined" and "complain when people advocate for things I don't want included in MY game series"

There is no steps to be taken. Gatekeeping something is not possible and thus the only moves are the ones you mentioned, made out of desperation and fear.

I blame Steve Jobs.

 

[rexfenix]

I despise the "muh sekrit club" mentality, but everything needs to be done within reason. I'm talking specifically about emulation and rom related communities and projects. Stuff like that is being constantly targeted for destruction, not because of the "fake fans" but mostly because corpo trolls are out there watching and salivating at the thought of purging everything related to these communities.
I believe communities such as these should have some rules in place, not really to deter people from joining but rather to avoid having a huge bullseye painted on their forehead. That counts for stuff like fan games as well. Don't just spread to the world that you're modding Nintendo games, or ask money for an emulator, etc.
Besides, if people really care about something they will do it/find it/talk about it. It's inevitable. All I care about is that people are responsible enough to NOT self-destruct or to invite destruction, this does not necessarily mean keeping people out.

 

[CG4R12I4N]

Except Orwell is not remembered because he was a particularly great writer, but because his works make excellent political propaganda.

Frank Herbert was anything but a fiction writer back when he started, he's a real proper journalist years before he even wrote his first fiction literature, and then he created Dune, one of the most world-changing influential novel series of all time that didn't just have a great political and cultural drama based of his own experience, but also had memorable poetic lines literaturewise that even most critical of the critics praised.

I don't know much about Orwell and 1984 to even compare them justifiably, but if you really implied that only actual longtime science fiction literature fan can make a good scifi literatures and other people outside that scope only can bring their ideological propaganda with that thoughtless comment, then what you said here and the rest of your posts in this thread are the very example of the worst kind of gatekeeping. Not all good game creators have to be gaming fans in the first place and that applies to everything else.

 

[dropsmegamega]

Frank Herbert was anything but a fiction writer back when he started, he's a real proper journalist years before he even wrote his first fiction literature, and then he created Dune, one of the most world-changing influential novel series of all time that didn't just have a great political and cultural drama based of his own experience, but also had memorable poetic lines literaturewise that even most critical of the critics praised.

I don't know much about Orwell and 1984 to even compare them justifiably, but if you really implied that only actual longtime science fiction literature fan can make a good scifi literatures and other people outside that scope only can bring their ideological propaganda with that thoughtless comment, then what you said here and the rest of your posts in this thread are the very example of the worst kind of gatekeeping. Not all good game creators have to be gaming fans in the first place.

What are you on about, Herbert was a big sci-fi enthusiast long before writing.

 

[CG4R12I4N]

I despise the "muh sekrit club" mentality, but everything needs to be done within reason. I'm talking specifically about emulation and rom related communities and projects. Stuff like that is being constantly targeted for destruction, not because of the "fake fans" but mostly because corpo trolls are out there watching and salivating at the thought of purging everything related to these communities.
I believe communities such as these should have some rules in place, not really to deter people from joining but rather to avoid having a huge bullseye painted on their forehead. That counts for stuff like fan games as well. Don't just spread to the world that you're modding Nintendo games, or ask money for an emulator, etc.
Besides, if people really care about something they will do it/find it/talk about it. It's inevitable. All I care about is that people are responsible enough to NOT self-destruct or to invite destruction, this does not necessarily mean keeping people out.

This is how I felt about the communities as a whole as well. Everything should be taken within reason and moderation, and that also applies to something like gatekeeping.
There are always some people who go out of their way to make buzzing and confronting others their jobs (like that YT VG emulation guy that got banned) instead of actually acting like Roman people do when in Roma. This is EXACTLY what gatekeeping is for, to deter people like those types that only come to crash the things you like.

 

[YuriSukiSan]

So I can kind of gleen what people you are referring to with this (not much examples given). From what I've seen, they fall into two categories: ① people with so little impact or influence that complaining about them is just making a mountain out of a molehill, and ② corporate cash-ins that end up failing anyways.

In the former case, those are only "threats" from the perspective of people who spend too much time on the internet. They are hyped up as "dangerous" by the dark corners that are trying to egg people on to acting irrationally. You can just ignore most of that stuff, as it is highly unlikely to ever destroy an industry much bigger than itself.

As for the latter case, those always fail anyways. Audiences can usually tell when something is an insincere follow-up to a franchise they've seen before. And even when they succeed, it doesn't last long. But more often, the writer shoots themselves in the foot during the press campaign by revealing they don't care about the franchise and look down on the audience, which wrecks sales when the release date comes along.

I don't think I'm a fringe conspiracy theorist. We've had near constant gaming controversy just in the past year alone, not necessarily because what's happening is new (this has been going on for years) but more because the buzzwords and the tactics that were used to silence complaints no longer have any power. I'm not going to pretend that legacy media publications haven't tried to cancel devs that don't toe the line, that idiots like Jason Schreier haven't had the audacity to complain about a development teams racial make up, or that there aren't publications who are totally fine which are BG3s explicit scenes but throw a fit over eastern games that show a mild amount of skin because it doesn't appeal to their ideological lens.

Just off the top of my head, here's an industry example: Square's lead translator (and lore adviser) Kathryn Cwynar is an out and out Antifa activist who's tweets read like satire. Koji Fox who helped define Square's best selling games wouldn't have had the shoe been in the other foot because he's the wrong gender, race and skin colour. She's a complete bigot but because it's industires approved form of bigotry, it's fine, apparently. And that's the more polite example.

 

[Tonberry]

Koji Fox who helped define Square's best selling games for Western audiences wouldn't have been hired had she been in charge because he's the wrong gender, race and skin colour.

This is just conjecture and redundant.

Kathryn Cwynar is an out and out Antifa activist

Sounds based to me, but what does that have to do with her job? Koichi Sugiyama was a war crime denier but he made great music for Dragon Quest.

 

[YuriSukiSan]

This is just conjecture and redundant.

No, that's based off her own words and opinions. You dismissing it doesn't really mean much other than trying to distract from the pertinent point. An out and out bigot has a senior role in the company, and it's perfectly fine because it's the approved form of bigotry.

Sounds based to me, but what does that have to do with her job? Koichi Sugiyama was a war crime denier but he made great music for Dragon Quest.

Yeah, beating up, killing and advocating for the death of people who don't agree with you is "based." You aren't at all subtle.

 

[ZombieFish]

but throw a fit over eastern games that show a mild amount of skin because it doesn't appeal to their ideological lens.

Citation? Cause part of me thinks you’re talking about Stellar Blade, and if so that is fucking hilarious.

 

[YuriSukiSan]

Citation? Cause part of me thinks you’re talking about Stellar Blade, and if so that is fucking hilarious.

I can't quite recall off the top of my head but it was either Atelier or something in the same vein, it wasn't Stellar Blade. Why you're randomly jumping in to quote me is more curious.

 

[miguk]

I don't think I'm a fringe conspiracy theorist. We've had near constant gaming controversy just in the past year alone, not necessarily because what's happening is new (this has been going on for years) but more because people are now simply fed up of it, the buzzwords and the tactics that were used to silence them no longer have any power. I'm not going to pretend that legacy media publications haven't tried to cancel devs that don't toe the line, idiots like Jason Schreier haven't had the audacity to complain about a development teams racial make up, that there aren't publications fine which are Baldurs Gate 3's explicit scenes but throw a fit over eastern games that show a mild amount of skin because it doesn't appeal to their ideological lens.

Just off the top of my head, here's an industry example: Square's lead translator (and lore adviser) Kathryn Cwynar is an out and out Antifa activist who's tweets read like satire. Koji Fox who helped define Square's best selling games for Western audiences wouldn't have been hired had she been in charge because he's the wrong gender, race and skin colour. And that's the more polite example. I could sit here for days going over industry rot. This is a real thing. And I'm not going to pretend it doesn't exist.

"Not a conspiracy theorist" while complaining about anti-fascists (the whole word is important to note) and Kotaku (a frequent target of conspiracy believers). That is not a convincing argument.

As for sexual content, yes, you can determine some to be okay and some not. That has always been the case in the arts. There's a big difference between Bear% and l***con. The former is contextualized and funny, the latter is just lowest common denominator trash. (If you were not talking about that, which is the biggest problem with sexuality in eastern games, you should have clarified; your posts have been lacking in clarification in this thread.)

Your examples are about the personal lives of people in the industry, not their work. You didn't even point out anything wrong with that. And it does sound like you are avoiding "impolite examples." That is only further making your argument sound unconvincing, as well as disingenuous.

I've seen this sort of crypto-argumentation before; the person making it avoids fully explaining what they mean because they know that the argument itself will be rejected if they gave details as to what they are arguing for. These sort of arguments don't convince anyone except for those who already agree.

 

[ZombieFish]

I can't quite recall off the top of my head but it was either Atelier or something in the same vein, it wasn't Stellar Blade. Why you're randomly jumping in to quote me is more curious.

For fun, chum. Why, wanna gatekeep?

 

[Tonberry]

No, that's based off her own words and opinions.

Do you have any concrete proof for this, or is it just randomly construed through tweets?

subtle

I don't think there's anything particularly wrong about being against a group of people who's whole MO is being against people and who base their entire ideology on hate and violence.

Again, why do people like Sugiyama get a pass, then, who's said far worse things than Kate ever did?

 

[starseeker300]

How about we all reign it back in a bit and remember everyone here is a real person.

I think keeping people who want to crash and twist something into something its not should be kept out of those communities, rather than those who want to join it

Yes real world politics are involved nowadays, and yes as others have said before, they are mostly set dressing to appeal to a wider demographic to get sales. I THINK that what has happened is that people with power want to stay in power 85% of the time, and that they will do anything they can to achieve that, including manufacturing conflict, call me conspiracy theorist all you want, but it is my genuinely held belief that a lot of Social Conflicts only exist now because they benefit the people in power, those who I believe to be those running major corporations.

Though I digress, I think we should get back to the main point,

Is gatekeeping good for your hobbies?
The Answer I would give is "almost universally yes".

 

[NoctemDead]

I think keeping people who want to crash and twist something into something its not should be kept out of those communities, rather than those who want to join it

Is gatekeeping good for your hobbies?
The Answer I would give is "almost universally yes".

What does this gatekeeping actually look like in practice, and who gets to decide the criteria and who are the ones trying to "twist" the community?

 

[CG4R12I4N]

We already got examples of those Fallout fandom communities; those who like all Fallout games, and those who only like one or two game from the series (between Interplay/Bethesda/Obsidian).
They get along as well as water and oil and thus gatekeeping is actually helpful from those people lashing out at each other.

For more extreme examples, we got this very emulation community where we literally are always jaywalking on thin line of legality and copyright fringe.

 

[Clippy]

 

[ZombieFish]

We already got examples of those Fallout fandom communities; those who like all Fallout games, and those who only like one or two game from the series (between Interplay/Bethesda/Obsidian).
They get along as well as water and oil and thus gatekeeping is actually helpful from those people lashing out at each other.

How much of that is gatekeeping though, and how much is self-selection of community members?

 

[CG4R12I4N]

That I cannot explain, because the whole thing about gatekeeping is that the very definition itself is very blurry in the first place.

 

[ATenderLad]

How much of that is gatekeeping though, and how much is self-selection of community members?

For what it's worth, I think CG4(I give up sorry) has the closest definition to actual gatekeeping as I understand it? This thread seems to be everyone giving their own version of what the term means, though, and then talking around each other.

 

[starseeker300]

What does this gatekeeping actually look like in practice, and who gets to decide the criteria and who are the ones trying to "twist" the community?

oh sorry for not elaborating/clarifying.

I would Define it as keeping those out that wish to twist the meaning of a work to fit some sort of narrative, whatever it may be, and that would extend to the community.

As for in practice, if some one comes in and starts saying that the community has to change because say "it doesn't appeal to me in its current form, it needs to change so it does appeal to me", then just say "then its not for you" and ignore that person and other like them.

I hope that explains my view better

 

[tropicalavera]

Ignoring 'gatekeeping' for a second to explore a related concept; I would just like to say that I think it's really cool that the barrier for entry in videogame development across the board has gone way down!! There are so many ways to get into the scene these days, with tonnes of tremendous tools and resources available - stuff that's exciting to play with both for kids AND dinosaurs! I think that's been really good for the medium overall. (n_n)b

 

[Tonberry]

How much of that is gatekeeping though, and how much is self-selection of community members?

I think there's kind of a thin line between nerd tribalism and hostile "gatekeeping", that this thread too has kind of ignored (me too because I hadn't given it much thought).

It's one thing for two subgroups of a community (Fallout studios, or even the RGT forum vs discord) to sort of keep each other at arm's length, with neither wanting too much to do with the other.
It's another thing where you would chastise a person who loves, I dunno, Zelda for example, because they supposedly likes the "wrong" Zelda, and as such is excluded from all Zelda related community discussion.

I think it's really cool that the barrier for entry in videogame development across the board has gone way down!! There are so many ways to get into the scene these days, with tonnes of tremendous tools and resources available

I agree completely.

 

[starseeker300]

It's one thing for two subgroups of a community (Fallout studios, or even the RGT forum vs discord) to sort of keep each other at arm's length, with neither wanting too much to do with the other.

personally I would call that keeping a respectful distance between each other.

 

[Tonberry]

personally I would call that keeping a respectful distance between each other.

Yeah that's better than the blunt way I put it. Still, I think it's poignant when they're under the same umbrella so to speak. Like splinter/fragmented communities or whatever it's called.