Gatekeeping

[MasterEn]

I really don't think this particular part is as bad as people make it out to be, personally. At the end of the day, most of it is largely just entertainment, and this discussion also also occurs mostly around very casual, entry-level branches of entertainment too, like Star Wars, for example.

Of course, you're entitled to your opinions on the matter, but I generally disagree. AAA/Hollywood were never our friends, and were always run by suits who tries to trick creators into making things they believe are meaningful, because the suits know it aligns with the zeitgeist and thus would generate the most amount of money.

And of course, I'm not trying to tell you you're wrong for your stance, but for the love of god, stop getting opinions from amateur youtubers (who're just as much consumer as us, they don't have any insider info) who bait people into outrage wars about entertainment, and instead spend that time on broadening your horizons. You will never ever ever run out of new games, comics, movies, whatever, to explore and love.

EDIT: That last part came out as way more confrontative than I intended due to poor formatting (I'm tired)
I mean in people general, not anyone of you specifically, sorry!

i've watched 8 of the movies, read many of the books and check out multiple sources about the stuff i haven't checked out yet, many of which play the footage alongside watching it themselves for the first time. i tried to watch the last jedi without any prior knowledge or influence. i didn't make past 5 minutes.
rouge one was good though.
my aunt introduced me to star wars. she means a lot to me, so star wars means a lot to me as well. she got to see it in theaters when it came out, and she was hoping that me and her could go see it in theaters when they were going to reshow the first 2 trilogies. we watched all of the 6 movies a bunch of times.
i tried to give disney wars a try. the force awakens was just a new hope but with shakey cam and terrible writing. they took stuff at random from the expanded universe and hacked away at it and frankensteined it together into a poorly made monstrosity. there's no creativity behind what they make. there's no love. they don't care. the old hollywood people who just wanted to make money at least understood that the customers wanted to be at least entertained, not lectured or bored to death.
we gave them a chance, and they blew it.
many of us will not care what happens to a lot of these properties any more. they make terrible products and get mad at us if we don't like it.
they need to leave, and then we can torch their legacy and build anew.

 

[RanmyakuIchi]

well i think its easy to see it this way on a base level, but on a more practical level i believe that gatekeeping is more often than not for the sake of change instead of being against it. just as ive seen communities ruined from basically turning into a sekrit klub, not really having any sort of gatekeeping culture can do just as much harm. the place constantly gets flooded with conversations youve had a billion times over because new people constantly join and talk about it in its place, its like the community would always be stuck at level 1 so to speak. if you ever want to get deeper into talking about your interests with each other there probably should be some sort of standard people need to rise to before joining in on a discussion. otherwise it creates this repetitive feedback loop, people will start to get sick of the repetition and leave and be replaced by newcomers just for those very ones to get tired eventually and leave. and the community stays in that very "immature" state for as long as it runs, im sure many of us are already thinking of countless places that have and are still suffering from this.
so i do agree with @miguk for the most part, in that gatekeeping does need to be in moderation in a sense for a healthy evolving community but i guess that isnt too big of a statement considering that the extreme of any side isnt exactly ideal in plenty of cases

I feel this kind of depends on the context and/or size of the hobby or community in question. Many of the fanbases I'm in have multiple community "hubs" with different tiers of engagement, if that makes sense. Certain spaces tend to naturally lean more newcomer or more hardcore oriented without gatekeeping needing to happen. People naturally gravitate towards likeminded people, after all.

 

[Clippy]

I kinda like this…version of you. Let's not get drunk tonight

Trust me, he has his uses. He's much mellower and more insightful than me at times. Whenever I wake up the morning after a heavy session of drinking it seems like he simply used different pathways to utilize my brain. At the same time I understand I can't rely on the man all the time and I'd rather not become an alcoholic haha.

There's a Latin saying that goes in vino veritas so maybe drunk Clippy is just my inner self uninhibited. I like to think I'll be able to harness his power someday.

 

[CG4R12I4N]

Gatekeeping is bad, everybody knows it and usually everybody avoids it whenever they can.

Is it necessary? Yes, because people usually don't want someone to come into their community and shits on what they like without even trying to know anything about the community itself.

 

[MasterEn]

Gatekeeping is bad, everybody knows it and usually everybody avoids it whenever they can.

Is it necessary? Yes, because people usually don't want someone to come into their community and shits on what they like without even trying to know anything about the community itself.

that's been happening a lot lately. nobody likes it when it happens.
everyone usually likes to have new people join their group, but they don't like it when that new person acts like an asshole and complains about everything.

 

[Tonberry]

i've watched 8 of the movies, read many of the books and check out multiple sources about the stuff i haven't checked out yet, many of which play the footage alongside watching it themselves for the first time. i tried to watch the last jedi without any prior knowledge or influence. i didn't make past 5 minutes.
rouge one was good though.
my aunt introduced me to star wars. she means a lot to me, so star wars means a lot to me as well. she got to see it in theaters when it came out, and she was hoping that me and her could go see it in theaters when they were going to reshow the first 2 trilogies. we watched all of the 6 movies a bunch of times.
i tried to give disney wars a try. the force awakens was just a new hope but with shakey cam and terrible writing. they took stuff at random from the expanded universe and hacked away at it and frankensteined it together into a poorly made monstrosity. there's no creativity behind what they make. there's no love. they don't care. the old hollywood people who just wanted to make money at least understood that the customers wanted to be at least entertained, not lectured or bored to death.
we gave them a chance, and they blew it.
many of us will not care what happens to a lot of these properties any more. they make terrible products and get mad at us if we don't like it.
they need to leave, and then we can torch their legacy and build anew.

I understand your sentiment, but Star Wars was never yours, no matter how much you like it. It’s a product at the end of the day, and having such a strong personal attachment for it, while understandable, is folly. Star Wars doesn’t care about you, it just wants your money.

No one is trying to sabotage Star Wars, they just fumbled and made shit products. They did twenty years ago too, but that’s not the point.

I’m not trying to devalue your connection to it. That’s entirely your own experience and infinitely valid, but your tastes aren’t the only ones being catered to.

I’ve loved Zelda and Final Fantasy all my life. Am I bummed that I think the new stuff is bad and that I feel unseen as a fan? Sure, I guess, but then I move on and discover something new and cool to get into (SMT for example), instead of being furious that FF16 is an action game and demand they destroy it to gain my favor back. They can take their time in making something new, I have other things to play in the meantime.

 

[DunkeyKong]

Trust me, he has his uses. He's much mellower and more insightful than me at times. Whenever I wake up the morning after a heavy session of drinking it seems like he simply used different pathways to utilize my brain. At the same time I understand I can't rely on the man all the time and I'd rather not become an alcoholic haha.

There's a Latin saying that goes in vino veritas so maybe drunk Clippy is just my inner self uninhibited. I like to think I'll be able to harness his power someday.

Sounds like Rock Lee's drunken fist lol, maybe you can learn from the master

 

[Somnia]

i've watched 8 of the movies, read many of the books and check out multiple sources about the stuff i haven't checked out yet, many of which play the footage alongside watching it themselves for the first time. i tried to watch the last jedi without any prior knowledge or influence. i didn't make past 5 minutes.
rouge one was good though.
my aunt introduced me to star wars. she means a lot to me, so star wars means a lot to me as well. she got to see it in theaters when it came out, and she was hoping that me and her could go see it in theaters when they were going to reshow the first 2 trilogies. we watched all of the 6 movies a bunch of times.
i tried to give disney wars a try. the force awakens was just a new hope but with shakey cam and terrible writing. they took stuff at random from the expanded universe and hacked away at it and frankensteined it together into a poorly made monstrosity. there's no creativity behind what they make. there's no love. they don't care. the old hollywood people who just wanted to make money at least understood that the customers wanted to be at least entertained, not lectured or bored to death.
we gave them a chance, and they blew it.
many of us will not care what happens to a lot of these properties any more. they make terrible products and get mad at us if we don't like it.
they need to leave, and then we can torch their legacy and build anew.

And we'll just call people who do like the new stuff names and act like they just don't get it or are fake fans because we all want to claim ownership over things we like.

It's foolish, just enjoy what you like in the way you like it and live your life. The problem with franchises that become eternal like Star Wars is that inevitably there will be things you dislike about the output. Games cost more money to make and there is less room for budget titles so fewer games get made. The creative and financial minds in charge change and so the movies and shows do as well. Some you will like, others you won't. Maybe you don't like any of it, I'm sure for some it was inevitable. No franchise should be eternal, it's a disgusting thing that is only done for the sake of money, but it is what it is. Sometimes you get solid works from that endless machine and sometimes you get slop you'd rather forget, sometimes it's more misses than hits and vice versa. I sure as hell know that the Lucasarts era wasn't beyond criticism when it came to the bevy of games and novels. Tons of great stuff there but also tons of questionable releases, that's just how these things tend to go.

It sucks to feel disconnected from something you hold near and dear, but I promise you that it feels far better to just take the parts you like and not take the parts you dislike personally. Besides, what could anyone who is just a fan have done to gatekeep Disney from buying Star Wars to begin with? The moment you relinquish the fantasy of wielding that power, the better.

 

[MasterEn]

I understand your sentiment, but Star Wars was never yours, no matter how much you like it. It’s a product at the end of the day, and having such a strong personal attachment for it, while understandable, is folly. Star Wars doesn’t care about you, it just wants your money.

No one is trying to sabotage Star Wars, they just fumbled and made shit products. They did twenty years ago too, but that’s not the point.

I’m not trying to devalue your connection to it. That’s entirely your own experience and infinitely valid, but your tastes aren’t the only ones being catered to.

I’ve loved Zelda and Final Fantasy all my life. Am I bummed that I think the new stuff is bad and that I feel unseen as a fan? Sure, I guess, but then I move on and discover something new and cool to get into (SMT for example), instead of being furious that FF16 is an action game and demand they destroy it to gain my favor back. They can take their time in making something new, I have other things to play in the meantime.

i know that it isn't mine. but a product should be well made, regardless of what it is. people bond and form friendships over tv shows, movies and games. i know the companies don't care. butthey need to do there jobs and do it properly.
incompetence and sabotage look the same in the heat of the moment.
you're right. my personal thoughts should be set aside. i do that a lot of the time. but every once in a while, the fire rises a bit.
zelda is the experimental series. be happy that it does new stuff. mario will never get that kind of freedom.
square enix wants the american casual audience. and they want to make movies nowadays. ff15 is a good example. they don't want you or me. they were surprised that bravely defualt was well received and sold well. "a turn based rpg!? the people don't want that. we don't want to make that so they shouldn't like." seems to be their thought process.
i share your sentiment; there's always old games to play. i don't need the newer ones either.

 

[Jeanfranc]

Actually, it's a very good practice

 

[MasterEn]

And we'll just call people who do like the new stuff names and act like they just don't get it or are fake fans because we all want to claim ownership over things we like.

It's foolish, just enjoy what you like in the way you like it and live your life. The problem with franchises that become eternal like Star Wars is that inevitably there will be things you dislike about the output. Games cost more money to make and there is less room for budget titles so fewer games get made. The creative and financial minds in charge change and so the movies and shows do as well. Some you will like, others you won't. Maybe you don't like any of it, I'm sure for some it was inevitable. No franchise should be eternal, it's a disgusting thing that is only done for the sake of money, but it is what it is. Sometimes you get solid works from that endless machine and sometimes you get slop you'd rather forget, sometimes it's more misses than hits and vice versa. I sure as hell know that the Lucasarts era wasn't beyond criticism when it came to the bevy of games and novels. Tons of great stuff there but also tons of questionable releases, that's just how these things tend to go.

It sucks to feel disconnected from something you hold near and dear, but I promise you that it feels far better to just take the parts you like and not take the parts you dislike personally. Besides, what could anyone who is just a fan have done to gatekeep Disney from buying Star Wars to begin with? The moment you relinquish the fantasy of wielding that power, the better.

our only power is to not buy it. that's all we can do.
i don't call the newbies names. if they ask me about my opinion on something, i'll be as objective as i can be. i can't tell them what to do. they have to decide on their own if they like it or not.
i do enjoy the parts that i like. the 6 movies, the cartoon in-between for 2 and 3, kotor, and the novels.
the rest, i leave behind, and move on.

 

[Jeanfranc]

More or less pointless. It is kind of impossible to actually gatekeep people from trying to engage with something even if you view them engaging as a negative. They will do the thing the wrong way, they will be less in-depth than you, the culture surrounding the thing will gradually change (from your perspective, not from an objective viewpoint of course). It is inevitable and you were likely on the other end of the change at some point whether you knew it at the time or not.

Just love what you love, find people you enjoy expressing that love with and let everyone else sort themselves out. You only stress yourself out and piss most people around you off by trying to hold off the inevitable.

If we're talking hobbies, yeah It's not possible.
You gatekeep people from online communities not interests

 

[oldvenison]

To an extent, it helps. I don't want my favorite things aired out to the point where they're stale, but I do like seeing others appreciate the things I like. I don't particularly like going around telling everyone all the great things I like (unless they really deserve that treatment) but if someone asks me about them, I would be hard pressed to miss an opportunity to create a new fan of the thing I like, or maybe even a new friendship where we share things we like to each other.

 

[Meekoos]

I like visual novels. I like all visual novels: romance, ecchi, western, indie, horror, mystery, adventure, fantasy, no matter if they have added mechanics or just one big story I love a good VN because I'm a reader. However most romance visual novels don't make much waves in gaming forums but mainly the conversations flow in their own forums, subreddits, or in discord servers. Does that mean gamers are gatekeeping against a genre of gaming? No, most otome gamers don't see themselves as gamers and don't enter these spaces for their conversations on who is best husbando material even if I would happily join the conversation. Do I feel gatekept when I enter those spaces and also talk about other games in otome spaces? Yes I do even if I'm just comparing plot points or story progression talk of gaming is taboo but I made my best friend in that space by posting a gif of a demon cow from Diablo 2 in the main chat and found a fellow gamer.

I found my person and I saw myself out.

 

[RanmyakuIchi]

I guess it comes down to enforcing standards, but not being a little bitch about it?

Gatekeeping is bad, everybody knows it and usually everybody avoids it whenever they can.

Is it necessary? Yes, because people usually don't want someone to come into their community and shits on what they like without even trying to know anything about the community itself.

I can agree with this, though I'd argue keeping out newcomers who act obnoxious or uncivil is more a community moderation issue than a gatekeeping issue.

 

[Leon]

There are benefits and disadvantages to gatekeeping.
The gatekeeper would be the conservative stance (not political stances, not everything is about politics) side of the argument while the anti-gatekeeping stance would be the liberal stance, aka if it ain't broke don't fix it vs we gotta innovate even if it ruins the experience.

A good analog of this is final fantasy, the conservative stance would be that of the games after 6, 9 or maybe 12 is likely the best as they are closer to the classical games in story and tone, wheras the liberal stance would be that 7, 10 or even 13 is the best game in the series because of how much they innovated.

I am more on the gatekeeper side of things, but change is not always bad, some things can use a change (my favorite series is ys, but ys 1 and 2 are definitely archaic games in their gameplay style), so it's not that change is always a bad thing, but when you let too many people in, they try to change it too much and it eventually rips the original apart, i worry this is what the ys and legend of heroes series are facing now as they've gained massively in popularity in the last few years,

 

[CG4R12I4N]

Sometimes there are people who just outright walking behind the fine line of moderation while kept making everyone else in the community uncomfortable because they kept pressing on the things they don't like instead of keeping those to themselves.
Gatekeeping is the perfect resort to make those people leave by themselves without resorting to silly bans.

Now if it's gatekeeping for products you don't like to make a statement to the creators, that's another issue entirely and while I don't really condone that kinda behavior, personally I think those kind of things are pretty much pointless in general. There are many things better to do than to dislike the things you used to like afterall, so many more medias to try instead of being entitled as if you're the one that could influence the creators to be 'better'.

 

[Clippy]

No one can destroy gaming, that's all in your head. You can't stop them from coming into the space and doing what they want to do anyways, it's silly to even pretend you have any level of authority there. You can make them feel unwelcome within the small spaces you personally occupy based on your own biased and unfounded notions of what "gaming" needs to be saved from, but you're ultimately powerless.

You're right in that no-one can destroy gaming as a whole on their own but can you really say that the influx of very hostile people over the last decade hasn't damaged gaming? I don't mean random Joes but people who took up creative positions over at EA, Ubisoft, Activision-Blizzard, Microsoft among many others.

The idea that you used to have any power over publishers is a total farce, whether we want to believe it or not. Voting with your wallet has always been a concept, but the ecosystem and market have evolved drastically in the last 30 years. DLCs existed in the 90s, microtransactions and lootboxes didn't have the means to exist. That's about it. Do you really think if publishers who's job is to make the most money had the means to try those things that they wouldn't have?

We did have power over publishers back in the very early days to some extent. Many a publisher back in the day folded over a bad game. Granted, it's been much more pronounced when it comes to devs rather than publishers in recent decades. Look no further than EA's graveyard when it comes to bad games killing studios. DLCs most certainly did not exist in the 90s. There were expansion packs, sure but not DLCs. The whole idea that you could sell a jacket with different colors was not around in the 90s. If anything, said jacket would be made available to you as part of a a free update/patch.

Market incentives have poisoned the industry, nothing more. There is truth that people who are newer to the hobby are just sort of used to the way things are and thus more susceptible to accept scummy practices, but the same is true of gamers that are older and more entrenched than we are. This stuff has slowly been trojan horsed in as the market grows and the means of delivering predatory practices evolve.

This is absolutely true, much to my chagrin. Gamers at large seem to have no impulse control. Had Bethesda been curbstomped so hard they went bankrupt over the Oblivion horse armor DLC the whole industry would've learned its lesson but alas, we are where we are.

Did "new" gamers with perceived lower standards hurt the industry, or is it the fact that most AAA games used to be made by a couple dozen people in a year and some change at most while middle market and independent games could stay comparable in terms of production values while nowadays it takes a team of 300+ half a decade or more for a single game? How are ballooning budgets and advancing technology the fault of "new" gamers not being gatekept?

Yes and yes in a way. By accepting unfinished betas masquerading as full releases that 'will be patched later' gamers have hurt their own interests. The AAA part of the industry drove itself into the corner it's in and I fail to see why I should sympathize and anyone saying the current situation is as things should be, especially with reports we see about soulcrushing crunch, is simply wrong to say the least.

Besides, how do we even gatekeep people who are susceptible to this? Do we just stop people who are too young or just too comfortable with MTX from being allowed to play? The youth know nothing but the modern hellscape, people with more money than sense don't care if their MTX practices hurt those around them. But what could you ever do to stop them? The concept of gatekeeping doesn't exist, it was never possible to begin with.

Well, we don't. We can't, as you said. It would be nice to be able to nip the bad practices in the bud so that the younglings grow up with gaming as it should be. And it hurts. You know why? Because those kids will think all that greedy BS is normal. Nay, they'll think it's how it's supposed to be. That's how gaming will meet its ultimate death. And that's why we're here to show them what gaming used to be and what it should still be. I know I'm tilting at windmills but I like to think that every kiddo who's been shown what gaming can be at its best is a convert to our cause. Aight, I may have trailed off a bit there, I admit.

I'm rambling and there is sosososososo much more to talk about here but it really does just come down to the concept of gatekeeping being pointless. If someone you perceive as a poison wants to come in and make a game, all you can do to stop them is not buy it if you feel it won't appeal to you.

Correct.

You can make them feel unwelcome in your social spaces online, but they will simply find their own.

Weirdly enough they always seem to blame us for their failures. They could have their own little circle and hang out there. It's not even about making them feel unwelcome. They don't care if they're welcome or not. They hate the fact we don't let them walk all over us.

Gatekeeping requires someone to feel some sense of ownership over the thing itself as well as the silly notion that they have some sort of power to stop others from engaging in ways they deem unfit. Just ain't a real thing outside of super niche communities but even then its a dubious concept at best.

On a granular level maybe. Granted, we're far from being a representative sample of gamers as a whole and you can argue that the fact that gamers simply keep taking Ls on the chin is indicative of the acceptance of horrible business practices but should we really just give up? Should we not hold the industry to a certain standard? Should we not educate younger gamers on how good things used to be so that they're not duped into BS? Call me an idealist but I like to think we can and should do better, both as customers and the industry.

 

[dropsmegamega]

Sometimes people just aren't ready for stuff...

 

[RanmyakuIchi]

Sometimes there are people who just outright walking behind the fine line of moderation while kept making everyone else in the community uncomfortable because they kept pressing on the things they don't like instead of keeping those to themselves.
Gatekeeping is the perfect resort to make those people leave by themselves without resorting to silly bans.

Now if it's gatekeeping for products you don't like to make a statement to the creators, that's another issue entirely and while I don't really condone that kinda behavior, personally I think those kind of things are pretty much pointless in general. There are many things better to do than to dislike the things you used to like afterall, so many more medias to try instead of being entitled as if you're the one that could influence the creators to be 'better'.

I think we're pretty much saying the same thing with different words here. If someone is deliberately clashing or causing issues within a community, then the community is within their right to cut that person loose or choose not to engage with them. This is true regardless of if the person in question is a newbie or a long timer.

 

[IDMTINP]

Sometimes people just aren't ready for stuff...

Wait, what do you mean? Genuine question.

 

[Somnia]

You're right in that no-one can destroy gaming as a whole on their own but can you really say that the influx of very hostile people over the last decade hasn't damaged gaming? I don't mean random Joes but people who took up creative positions over at EA, Ubisoft, Activision-Blizzard, Microsoft among many others.

This right here is how I know we won't agree with a single thing. I could not disagree with what you view as the problem more if I tried.

And to be honest even if I did agree that the creative at these companies were the problem and not the shareholders and market they operate within, I would just ignore them and look to indies. I'd just disengage. Follow the creatives I like to whatever studios they go to and pay attention to indies and middle market studios I feel represent my interests. Hell even if another game I wanted never came out I already have more games in my ever growing backlog than I'll ever play so that's totally fine, I'll live.

But again, I don't really view that as the problem.

 

[DunkeyKong]

DAMN! How did something about gatekeeping turned into gaming industry? Not complaining though

In fact, I love reading all of this perspective or point of view so…more please

 

[SwordBreaker39]

healthy for a community to a degree. If we started gatekeeping Reddit, X and so many other places would not have turned in to cancer ridden my feeling are more important than reality. If we adults had gatekeeping we would not have hired morons over talent and Velguard would not been trash.

Any community or work needs a healthy does of gate keeping. Just how a bar or club have a bouncer that see to it your of legal age, your are not to drunk and your not a creep that will creep on the girls.

So if one is Gatekeeping one keeps the trash out to keep the community not turn in a toxic pit if filth or a cancer ridden my feelings is more important than your freedom of speech and reality.

 

[Leon]

DAMN! How did something about gatekeeping turned into gaming industry? Not complaining though

In fact, I love reading all of this perspective or point of view so…more please

Honestly the debate kinda proves something about the benefits of gatekeeping..

The bigger something get's, the more it will tear itself apart by different ideals and desires for the medium.