Gatekeeping

[MasterEn]

It's gatekeeping in that it goes both ways. As in when the FGC do give the surge of huge newcomers interested in fighting games, it also invites whole lot of troubles that sometimes even not related to the fighting game culture itself.
The abovementioned 'Smash Bros vs Every FG else' is one, but also others like the whole quitters (disconnecting before losing to keep streak of wins in internet ranking battles) and even little things like internet connection/netcode issue (delay vs rollback) that COULD and WOULD affect the game sales if the devs aren't conforming to the FGC 'standards'.

smash bros is a fighting game. anyone who says differently lost to link in n64 in single player is just trying to cope.

 

[ZombieFish]

aMSa rules. Also I’m nice people.

 

[RageBurner]

Gatekeeping is never good. People change, interests wane.

Communities need new blood to stay healthy long term and gatekeeping/elitism harms this natural process. One the one hand, no gatekeeping should exist (other than the natural skill floors/ceilings a game imposes), but it is also the newcomer's responsibility to recognize their limitations and not actively harm other people's progress.

As with everything, it is a tacit contract - everyone has a role to play, and if the roles are played right, everyone benefits.

 

[Tonberry]

Just look at the part of FGC that says Smash Bros. isn't a fighting game.

Well it's not!!!1
Joking, but I think that's a much smaller contingent of people than one would think. It's just not a "traditional" fighting game which is what caused the argument a decade ago when people started watching Melee more and more, because the only "mainstream" fighting game at the time was Street Fighter 4, and most people in the FGC seems to agree on this now and Smash coexists peacefully along other fighting games, aside from the few loud, angry, bad actors that can't ever be pleased.

But I'd say argue the resurgence of fighting games during the mid 2010s which continues to this day is a fairly good example of the genre still having lots to offer, and the games sell, so there's definitely much interest as a whole, and not as niche a community as it's sometimes portrayed as.

(The true party game is Tekken)

 

[miguk]

You could call yourself anything you want, it's your actions that define you and there's a reason Antifa are despised by the public in France. I'm not sure where you're from (probably the US) but going around beating up the elderly, setting fire to people, rioting, smashing up random shops that fly the tricolour, or generally lynching anyone who doesn't agree with you is just thuggery. Labeling someone a facist doesn't make them one. Using your ideology as a shield to hide behind your behavour doesn't make it any less vile. Giving yourself a nice name doesn't change any of that. And it never will. And I'm not going to pretend the past decade of the medium hasn't been wrought with activism, whether that's from publications across the spectrum (not just Kotaku) or in the industry itself, no amount of gaslighting is going to make that suddenly disappear. Kate is actually the reason one the worst voice actors to ever grace the FF franchise actually does, not withstanding her translation and voice direction which to say it's been poorly recieved would an understatement. DT has been a fairly controversial expansion because of how dramatically awful it's been. And frankly I didn't think I needed to implicitly state why calls to violence is wrong. Even more so when you're a westerner that thinks Japan needs to "educated" on how to behave, Kate actually nuked her own twitter account the moment people caught wind of it because it wasn't very nice stuff.

When it comes to eastern games it's the unreasonable the scrutiny they fall under, it doesn't matter whether that's a standard anime-ish game like Atelier or something more extreme like Stellar Blade -- I don't really care for that one, and I don't own a PS5, my point really was there's a very different set of standards that they are held too. When you don't apply what you believe equally, when you're inheritantly biased, it shows.

Those are some extraordinary claims about anti-fascists. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I'm not about to believe that anti-fascists are lynching people when I've never seen that in the news. Either way, that has nothing to do with games.

When did I say "Japan needs to be educated how to behave?" (Can't tell if that's directed at me or the person you are discussing; I'll address it anyways.) As I've said in other threads, I know Japanese people (as well as other Asians). Hardly any of them are hardcore nerds, and wouldn't call themselves おたく like it's a badge of honor. Most of them have casual tastes in anime — usually Naruto or Demon Slayer fans, rarely JoJo fans, never ****con fans. Most Japanese people are just... people. It's really just the big media corporations who are messed up, as they are trying to appeal to every audience possible (at least within Japan), for a certain value of "every audience." However, as a result of the sordid history of media in Japan, as well as the fallout from media reform laws of the past few decades, that includes pedos. That's not the people's fault any more than Nintendo's shenanigans are the people's fault. But it's a wide problem in the part of the Japanese media industry aimed mainly at nerds — and specifically that part, not the general audience. From what I've seen, the general audience there isn't particularly okay with that, which is why there have been stricter legal reforms being made in the country (though moreso for real life situations than media).

Anyways, I don't see how any of this shows a looming threat to gaming. You've mentioned an isolated situation that doesn't say much other than "some voice actor sucks." I'm guessing you play undubs for retro games, because if you didn't, you'd notice that it's much better now than in the past.

 

[CG4R12I4N]

smash bros is a fighting game. anyone who says differently lost to link in n64 in single player is just trying to cope.

Not just platforming fighters like Smash Bros and Multiversus really, but even arena fighters like Power Stone, Dragon Ball Xenoverse and Naruto Ninja Storm series aren't being considered fighting games anymore by FGC despite the point being duel of two guys fighting each other.
Tho to be fair, the fact that Smash Bros community reacted violently in response to that is pretty cringe as well.

 

[YuriSukiSan]

Thanks for clarifying, and again, sorry if I came off as too abrasive. It was more reactionary than I'd like to be.

I should say that I don't particularly care for Kate's work in XIV either, but I don't bother with devs' real life selves outside of their work or them actively representing the game (like on events or whatever), because I'm more interested in their work. While Sena's work is far from stellar, she had another thing to deal with where people decided her poor performance excused them of being transphobic.
Ultimately, I think the "poor state" the game is in now is exclusively Yoshida's fault, because he parades around like a mastermind auteur producer, so we'll have to take that impression as it comes, and he was clearly busy with 16 or whatever and maybe trusted his team too much and they ended up delivering a lackluster product.

You don't have to be sorry, I'm sorry if I came across as rude as well. I don't particularly obsess over Kate, or even hate her even if I think she's a zealout, it's just that example is the most prominent for me because XIV (mostly XI) is something I engaged with for years. I don't have anything against Sena but I would be lying if I said she wasn't suited to the role of a main character, or at least not one so poorly written as Wuk Lamat. I don't think anyone could have saved Wuk Lamat but that doesn't mean I think Sena should get a pass, they did re-record her lines and to me that says it all. That didn't even happen during the ARR days. And the thing is, I could understand if people were just being bigoted but it wasn't just that, granted Sena was picking fights on twitter and being toxic.. but it wasn't just one direction the criticism was coming from. I didn't even know Sena was trans until I looked up who the voice actor was because I wanted to know who it was!

I'm Swedish, just to clarify. We've had enough trouble with actual fascists and nationalists and their ilk attempting (and succeeding to certain extents) to actively infiltrate and subvert our governments etc for over a decade, so I'm just fed up with giving them space

Oh, that's way understandable. We have problems in France too but I think the problem with France is that everything happens in extremes that make everyone else look sane, it doesn't matter what it is to be honest. The levels of violence we get from activists like that I couldn't describe in polite terms but I really do mean it when I say they're ruthless.

 

[MasterEn]

Not just platforming fighters like Smash Bros and Multiversus really, but even arena fighters like Power Stone, Dragon Ball Xenoverse and Naruto Ninja Storm series aren't being considered fighting games anymore by FGC despite the point being duel of two guys fighting each other.
Tho to be fair, the fact that Smash Bros community reacted violently in response to that is pretty cringe as well.

part of me wants to expand a bit on this by going into how there are different kinds of fighting games besides 1v1. the other part of me wants to say that they have both skill issues and dandori issues if they can't focus on more than one opponent at a time.


...
they have skill issues and dandori issues.

 

[YuriSukiSan]

Those are some extraordinary claims about anti-fascists. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I'm not about to believe that anti-fascists are lynching people when I've never seen that in the news. Either way, that has nothing to do with games.

When did I say "Japan needs to be educated how to behave?" (Can't tell if that's directed at me or the person you are discussing; I'll address it anyways.) As I've said in other threads, I know Japanese people (as well as other Asians). Hardly any of them are hardcore nerds, and wouldn't call themselves おたく like it's a badge of honor. Most of them have casual tastes in anime — usually Naruto or Demon Slayer fans, rarely JoJo fans, never ****con fans. Most Japanese people are just... people. It's really just the big media corporations who are messed up, as they are trying to appeal to every audience possible (at least within Japan), for a certain value of "every audience." However, as a result of the sordid history of media in Japan, as well as the fallout from media reform laws of the past few decades, that includes pedos. That's not the people's fault any more than Nintendo's shenanigans are the people's fault. But it's a wide problem in the part of the Japanese media industry aimed mainly at nerds — and specifically that part, not the general audience. From what I've seen, the general audience there isn't particularly okay with that, which is why there have been stricter legal reforms being made in the country (though moreso for real life situations than media).

Anyways, I don't see how any of this shows a looming threat to gaming. You've mentioned an isolated situation that doesn't say much other than "some voice actor sucks." I'm guessing you play undubs for retro games, because if you didn't, you'd notice that it's much better now than in the past.

It was directed at Kate but in general the behaviour of JETs who think cultural imperialism and Anglo American beliefs should supercede everything. I've worked and lived in Japan. It's not some kind of flex, I'm reiterating that because I think you actually liked a post of mine a while back when I was talking about either that or me complaining about the way JETs behave. I think? I'm very aware that the West's perception of Japan and what actually is Japan are two different things. When it comes to Antifa? Lets be honest, you're calling me a liar. I'm not sure why you think Antifa's activity in France is clandestine or even in America because when they riot, people bleed. It wasn't so long ago that someone with a tricolour hanging out their window had their walls scaled and their teeth kicked in because pride in your nation = evil. Antifa have a bad reputation for a reason. Whether that's screaming during memorials or attacking catholics in procession, they're animals. And.. Riots in France happen like the seasons of the month. If you think you can sit there and imply otherwise it's tantamount to gaslighting, actually. They happen every election, on every vote, they happen for just about any reason you can think of.

As for the example, it's relevant because you implied that it wasn't happening in the industry, then implied it wasn't at very least not a significant level. And now it's an isolated incident.

 

[Jeanfranc]

Also when at this discussion, here's my hot take:

Modern so-called "FGC" as a whole is pretty much gatekeeping in the worst way and actually hurting ALL fighting game communities as a whole, from gamers to the devs.
View attachment 20162

Modern FGC gatekeeping? what? The real problem with modern FGC is that modern fighters like Strive have been casualized to appeal to the lowest common denominator

 

[CG4R12I4N]

Yes, that's gatekeeping. It bleeds creativity to pander to FGC just like Shit Fighter 5-6 and Kekken 7-8. And the fact that FGC only plays both of them and consider other FGs trash is also a big issue in general.

 

[Jeanfranc]

Kekken 7-8

I KNEEL

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 11:26 PM

Yes, that's gatekeeping. It bleeds creativity to pander to FGC just like Shit Fighter 5-6 and Kekken 7-8. And the fact that FGC only plays both of them and consider other FGs trash is also a big issue in general.

I don't think think that's what "gatekeeping" means, but I agree with what you're said there

 

[tropicalavera]

Part of me does wonder how much of this is 'FGC' by way of 'whatever discords and twitter accounts i happen to encounter' and how much is 'my local/regional/national scene'?? Like, is this sort of "we only play tekken and sf6 here >:O" gatekeeping happening to you personally oorrrr.....? I only ask bc at my locals people are down to pretty much play anything? As long as you provide the set-up to play it then people are usually down for a few games of whatever.

Someone said Power Stone was shunned by the 'FGC' and 'not a real fighting game' but I swear I've seen PS side tournaments at every event I've ever been to??

 

[Jeanfranc]

It was directed at Kate but in general the behaviour of JETs who think cultural imperialism and Anglo American beliefs should supercede everything. I've worked and lived in Japan. It's not some kind of flex, I'm reiterating that because I think you actually liked a post of mine a while back when I was talking about either that or me complaining about the way JETs behave. I think? I'm very aware that the West's perception of Japan and what actually is Japan are two different things. When it comes to Antifa? Lets be honest, you're calling me a liar. I'm not sure why you think Antifa's activity in France is clandestine or even in America because when they riot, people bleed. It wasn't so long ago that someone with a tricolour hanging out their window had their walls scaled and their teeth kicked in because pride in your nation = evil. Antifa have a bad reputation for a reason. Whether that's screaming during memorials or attacking catholics in procession, they're animals. And.. Riots in France happen like the seasons of the month. If you think you can sit there and imply otherwise it's tantamount to gaslighting, actually. They happen every election, on every vote, they happen for just about any reason you can think of.

As for the example, it's relevant because you implied that it wasn't happening in the industry, then implied it wasn't at very least not a significant level. And now it's an isolated incident.

My guy, I get what you're trying to say here but you should really take a break from browsing /v/

 

[CG4R12I4N]

Part of me does wonder how much of this is 'FGC' by way of 'whatever discords and twitter accounts i happen to encounter' and how much is 'my local/regional/national scene'?? Like, is this sort of "we only play tekken and sf6 here >:O" gatekeeping happening to you personally oorrrr.....? I only ask bc at my locals people are down to pretty much play anything? As long as you provide the set-up to play it then people are usually down for a few games of whatever.

Someone said Power Stone was shunned by the 'FGC' and 'not a real fighting game' but I swear I've seen PS side tournaments at every event I've ever been to??

FGC in this case refers only for specific community(es) that play FGs via internet and attending famous tourneys like EVO and Combo Breaker.
I guess your local communities and regional whatlike doesn't count as FGC at this point due to not happening worldwide.

 

[YuriSukiSan]

My guy, I get what you're trying to say here but you should really take a break from browsing /v/

I really do mean it when I say I haven't frequented anything but 2chan since quite a few years when it comes to imageboards. I don't think 4chan has really been a good site since Moot left and even then it effectively died years before that, if you don't like what I have to say that's one thing but don't attach labels to me. When I share my opinions, they're typically based on personal experience. Not on others hearsay.

 

[ZombieFish]

Again, nobody did the label thing you want them to do.

 

[Jeanfranc]

I don't think 4chan has really been a good site since Moot left and even then it effectively died years before that

Eh, it's not that bad but it's absolutely past its best days, just avoid /v/ and you're good, /vr/ is fine actually and so are most generals on /vg/. Slowboards like /m/ are best ones

 

[YuriSukiSan]

Again, nobody did the label thing you want them to do.

The implication is I spend too much time on 4chan but especially a board where all they do is argue about politics in video games and I simply don't, it's a cesspit. I don't want to be associated with that kind of behaviour. I'm not someone on a political crusade or with a bone to pick, and if I was I would have banned long before I had a chance to post any of this.

Eh, it's not that bad but it's absolutely past it's best days, just avoid /v/ and your good, /vr/ is fine actually and so are most generals on /vg/. Slowboards like /m/ are best ones

I don't mean it nastily I just dislike what's become of it, the early years of the site were about having fun and making jokes. Now it just seems like it's about being spiteful.

 

[starseeker300]

granted Sena was picking fights on twitter and being toxic

There's a simple solution to things like that, destroy twitter

 

[miguk]

It was directed at Kate but in general the behaviour of JETs who think cultural imperialism and Anglo American beliefs should supercede everything. I've worked and lived in Japan. It's not some kind of flex, I'm reiterating that because I think you actually liked a post of mine a while back when I was talking about either that or me complaining about the way JETs behave. I think? I'm very aware that the West's perception of Japan and what actually is Japan are two different things. When it comes to Antifa? Lets be honest, you're calling me a liar. I'm not sure why you think Antifa's activity in France is clandestine or even in America because when they riot, people bleed. It wasn't so long ago that someone with a tricolour hanging out their window had their walls scaled and their teeth kicked in because pride in your nation = evil. Antifa have a bad reputation for a reason. Whether that's screaming during memorials or attacking catholics in procession, they're animals. And.. Riots in France happen like the seasons of the month. If you think you can sit there and imply otherwise it's tantamount to gaslighting, actually. They happen every election, on every vote, they happen for just about any reason you can think of.

As for the example, it's relevant because you implied that it wasn't happening in the industry, then implied it wasn't at very least not a significant level. And now it's an isolated incident.

I heard of protests and what might have been riots in France. That has been in the news, so you can bin that unfounded "gaslighting" accusation. But I'd rather read the news articles that mention what anti-fascists are up to that just trust anything posted on a forum online. I'm not calling you a liar; I'm calling you someone who made an extraordinary statement without a source. That's literally what you've done, no opinion added to it.

And even if such things happened, I'd like to know why they happened. If, for example, a person in a high position of power gets assassinated, and I'm not aware of what that person's role in the power structure is, I'm going to want to know that first before I pass judgement on the assassin. And that's not because I condone killing people, but because there's a big difference between defensive violence and offensive violence, and I'd want to know if they just took down a violent dictator, mass murderer, or someone else who is a great threat that isn't being stopped. If I have no stake in it, I ought to try to understand the situation rationally rather than emotionally.

Call that callous if you want. People get killed needlessly all the time, and it's hard to shed tears for every case around the world even when you want to do so. It's easier to try to understand the situation and be considerate of what choices people have in desperate situations. At the very least, it's psychologically more comfortable.

That of course, is just an example. I bring it up because you are giving me tear-jerker stories without evidence or context. Screaming at memorials can be bad, unless people had a reason. I'm reminded of the funeral of a certain politician who was hated in their country. I couldn't condemn the protesters as they seemed to present good reason to be angry. I have no idea if this is a similar case or not, so I'm not going to be convinced that anti-fascists are bad on this basis. I don't even know who specifically was involved, so I am not even going to assume anti-fascists were the ones doing it (as they are frequently blamed for things they never did).

"They happen for just about any reason you can think of." Good point, as it proves mine. If anything could be the cause, I'm not about to assume only one thing could be the cause.

I still don't get what you think is messing up the industry. You haven't shown any real threat. Maybe you need to get of the #chans (whichever one you go to, they are all cesspools) and just relax a bit more. I say that not to be insulting, but because it's just good general advice.

 

[ATenderLad]

Alright, a bit late getting to this, but it looks like this one keeps returning to politics. It had a good run!