Gatekeeping

[tropicalavera]

I think there's kind of a thin line between nerd tribalism and hostile "gatekeeping", that this thread too has kind of ignored (me too because I hadn't given it much thought).

It's one thing for two subgroups of a community (Fallout studios, or even the RGT forum vs discord) to sort of keep each other at arm's length, with neither wanting too much to do with the other.
It's another thing where you would chastise a person who loves, I dunno, Zelda for example, because they supposedly likes the "wrong" Zelda, and as such is excluded from all Zelda related community discussion.


I agree completely.

if you've played Link's Awakening DX and NOT the original, authentic, artful Link's Awakening for Game Boy then do NOT @ me or my son >:C >:c

Spoiler

and if you played the Switch remake you will day in 7 days

 

[ZombieFish]

Ignoring 'gatekeeping' for a second to explore a related concept; I would just like to say that I think it's really cool that the barrier for entry in videogame development across the board has gone way down!! There are so many ways to get into the scene these days, with tonnes of tremendous tools and resources available - stuff that's exciting to play with both for kids AND dinosaurs! I think that's been really good for the medium overall. (n_n)b

Here here. One reason it’s a great time to be into games, and getting better every day.

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 9:57 PM

Yeah that's better than the blunt way I put it. Still, I think it's poignant when they're under the same umbrella so to speak. Like splinter/fragmented communities or whatever it's called.

It’s called a Tom Clancy’s Sam Fisher.

 

[Tonberry]

if you've played Link's Awakening DX and NOT the original, authentic, artful Link's Awakening for Game Boy then do NOT @ me or my son >:C >:c

Spoiler

and if you played the Switch remake you will day in 7 days

Joke's on you, GUY, I think DX and Switch are exactly as good!

 

[starseeker300]

if you've played Link's Awakening DX and NOT the original, authentic, artful Link's Awakening for Game Boy then do NOT @ me or my son >:C >:c

Spoiler

and if you played the Switch remake you will day in 7 days

The switch version is the one I played. And I am in your walls, you cannot hide from me

 

[bjork]

I like Zelda 2 the best

 

[YuriSukiSan]

"Not a conspiracy theorist" while complaining about anti-fascists (the whole word is important to note) and Kotaku (a frequent target of conspiracy believers). That is not a convincing argument.

As for sexual content, yes, you can determine some to be okay and some not. That has always been the case in the arts. There's a big difference between Bear% and l***con. The former is contextualize and funny, the latter is just lowest common denominator trash. (If you were not talking about that, which is the biggest problem with sexuality in eastern games, you should have clarified; your posts have been lacking in clarification in this thread.)

Your examples are about the personal lives of people in the industry, not their work. You didn't even point out anything wrong with that. And it does sound like you are avoiding "impolite examples." That is only further making your argument sound unconvincing, as well as disingenuous.

I've seen this sort of crypto-argumentation before; the person making it avoids fully explaining what they mean because they know that the argument itself will be rejected if they gave details as to what they are arguing for. These sort of arguments don't convince anyone except for those who already agree.

You could call yourself anything you want, it's your actions that define you and there's a reason Antifa are despised by the public in France. I'm not sure where you're from (probably the US) but going around beating up the elderly, setting fire to people, rioting, smashing up random shops that fly the tricolour, or generally lynching anyone who doesn't agree with you is just thuggery. Labeling someone a facist doesn't make them one. Using your ideology as a shield to hide behind your behavour doesn't make it any less vile. Giving yourself a nice name doesn't change any of that. And it never will. And I'm not going to pretend the past decade of the medium hasn't been wrought with activism, whether that's from publications across the spectrum (not just Kotaku) or in the industry itself, no amount of gaslighting is going to make that suddenly disappear. Kate is actually the reason one the worst voice actors to ever grace the FF franchise actually does, not withstanding her translation and voice direction which to say it's been poorly recieved would an understatement. DT has been a fairly controversial expansion because of how dramatically awful it's been. And frankly I didn't think I needed to implicitly state why calls to violence is wrong. Even more so when you're a westerner that thinks Japan needs to "educated" on how to behave, Kate actually nuked her own twitter account the moment people caught wind of it because it wasn't very nice stuff.

When it comes to eastern games it's the unreasonable the scrutiny they fall under, it doesn't matter whether that's a standard anime-ish game like Atelier or something more extreme like Stellar Blade -- I don't really care for that one, and I don't own a PS5, my point really was there's a very different set of standards that they are held too. When you don't apply what you believe equally, when you're inheritantly biased, it shows.

For fun, chum. Why, wanna gatekeep?

No, the point is that you quoted one small section of my post, ignored the context of it, then got passive aggressive with me and tried to portray me as a convenient stereotype to be dismissed rather than actually address what was said. If you wanted to engage with me and have a discussion, you could have but that's not what you're trying to do.

Do you have any concrete proof for this, or is it just randomly construed through tweets?

If I was quoted as saying I wouldn't hire someone based on their ethnicity and gender I would be fired racism and sexual discrimination. Why are you assuming bad faith from the get go? These aren't vague estimations or hyperbole.

I don't think there's anything particularly wrong about being against a group of people who's whole MO is being against people and who base their entire ideology on hate and violence.

Again, why do people like Sugiyama get a pass, then, who's said far worse things than Kate ever did?

The implication here is that just because you call yourself something that means you are, you can call yourself whatever you like. That doesn't mean you're the good guys. Beating up random normies for being mildly to the right of Noam Chomsky doesn't mean you're beating up facists. You can call someone a facist but that doesn't make them one.

.. And I never said Sugiyama should get a pass, in fact he shouldn't have. Playing whataboutism is silly.

 

[starseeker300]

I like Zelda 2 the best

who hurt you?

 

[tropicalavera]

I am in your walls

wrong game, chief >:3

 

[ZombieFish]

I like Zelda 2 the best

Somebody got lost on the way to the hot takes thread.

 

[MasterEn]

The switch version is the one I played. And I am in your walls, you cannot hide from me

so... you're one of the titans from attack on titan? neet.

 

[miguk]

How about we all reign it back in a bit and remember everyone here is a real person.

I think keeping people who want to crash and twist something into something its not should be kept out of those communities, rather than those who want to join it

View attachment 20130

Yes real world politics are involved nowadays, and yes as others have said before, they are mostly set dressing to appeal to a wider demographic to get sales. I THINK that what has happened is that people with power want to stay in power 85% of the time, and that they will do anything they can to achieve that, including manufacturing conflict, call me conspiracy theorist all you want, but it is my genuinely held belief that a lot of Social Conflicts only exist now because they benefit the people in power, those who I believe to be those running major corporations.

Though I digress, I think we should get back to the main point,

Is gatekeeping good for your hobbies?
The Answer I would give is "almost universally yes".

Is it really a bad thing to change the hobby, though? Gaming is always changing because it's reliant on technology, which is always changing. This is different from, say, rock music, which has slowed down (if not laid on its deathbed) because music technology is stagnating. (And no, I'm not talking about AI and Vocaloid; I mean instruments.)

And the technology gaming is reliant on is now available to everyone. People who never got a computer now have a cell phone. People who avoided PC gaming when you needed to open the machine up and insert a card to get it to work (as well as deal with the obtuse sound menus) are now buying ready-made gaming PCs. And console gaming is a thing for everyone instead of nerds and kids. Even emulation machines are basically mainstream now. And that means more diverse interests and perspectives in the industry than back when it was just for gamer stereotypes.

The thing is, games are not an exclusive club of self-stylized nerds anymore. Female casual gamers outnumber the conventional male hardcore gamer, for instance. (And this isn't something that helps those in power, as handheld sales almost dropped entirely until the Switch, Steam Deck, and emu-HH came about.) It helps to make the hobby more open to others, as it can allow it to be more than just a hobby, but an art. And besides, a lot of the "newcomers" were already taking part in the hobby; they were just silenced by the majority back then, as gatekeeping in gaming against certain people was worse in the past.

Don't get me wrong, there is some logic to your point. There are people in power in society who benefit from others being in constant conflict. But that is mainly old-money wealthy people, major political parties, and corporations. That is not the case for the rest of society, as the rest doesn't have real power.

 

[starseeker300]

For fun, chum. Why, wanna gatekeep?

No, the point is that you quoted one small section of my post, ignored the context of it, then got passive aggressive with me and tried to portray me as a convenient stereotype to be dismissed rather than actually address what was said. If you wanted to engage with me and have a discussion, you could have but that's not what you're trying to do.

bro calm down, he was clearly making a joke

 

[ZombieFish]

bro calm down, he was clearly making a joke

He knows. He wants a reaction he’s not gonna get. But thank you.

 

[CG4R12I4N]

While gaming as a tech and artform entertainment is raised to the levels unimaginable before as time passes up to this day, I like to think the renaissance of gaming back in 90s-00s with the rise of arcades and revolutionary consoles are still the best era of gaming where people actually got into it not just as mere hobby, but as a lifestyle as well.

Yes, I like retro games the best and consider most modern games trash and yes, this is my gatekeep and you can't do anything about it.

 

[Tonberry]

Why are you assuming bad faith from the get go?

I wasn't. Sorry if that's what it came off as.
I don't think Twitter posts or the like should be able to define any person, regardless of ideological spectrum or whether or not I agree with them, and my response was more a reaction to what I perceived as a west-bad-east-good mentality, which I think is reductive regardless of what stance one might have, which was also why I brought up Sugiyama as an example, because I think he was a scumbag, but I still like his professional work in Dragon Quest.
Humans are defined by much more than the shower thoughts they safely post online.

The implication here is that just because you call yourself something that means you are, you can call yourself whatever you like. That doesn't mean you're the good guys. Beating up random normies for being mildly to the right of Noam Chomsky doesn't mean you're beating up facists. You can call someone a facist but that doesn't make them one.

I am personally against fascism, yes. It's not black and white though, and I believe the activists you mention further up aren't doing more diplomatic solutions any favors, but I reserve the right to be prejudiced against someone whose ideology, again, about violence and hate from the get-go.

 

[YuriSukiSan]

bro calm down, he was clearly making a joke

Urk. I forgot my text, anyways. The thing is, a joke is a joke. Making someone the target of derision isn't a joke. Immediately bringing up Stellar Blade (it's a buzzword at this point) and quoting only one part of my post makes the message clear. I don't like cherry picking quotes, and I don't like it when people to do it to me to portray me negatively. If someone wants to be horrible they can at least argue with me honestly.

 

[MasterEn]

Is it really a bad thing to change the hobby, though? Gaming is always changing because it's reliant on technology, which is always changing. This is different from, say, rock music, which has slowed down (at best) because music technology is stagnating. (And no, I'm not talking about AI and Vocaloid; I mean instruments.)

it can be. i mention this on a another thread: technology advancements can be both good and bad, depending on how it is used. we stared with 2d and one screen, then we got scrolling screens, large scale areas you can traverse in different directions, neat background effects like scrolling backgrounds.
3d introduced 360 movement, more opportunities for vertical movement, crazy water effects, and much more depth could be added to exhausted genres, reinvigorating them.
the main problem is when people who come in who don't like nearly anything in general except making people miserable. they demand that games be easier that were liked for being hard as hell to beat. they want things changed that they deem "problematic" that no one else who has played the game has a problem with. and they whine when they don't get their way.
no one wants to try and enjoy something if someone else is going to complain the entire time. they will just disengage and isolate themselves so they can enjoy the game that they wanted to; which can hurt quite a few genre of games that are built on multiplayer and co-op/competition. less people will participate thus shrinking the community and then, every one just leaves.

 

[ZombieFish]

I think part of it being a lifestyle back then was us not having jobs. Which I do miss, no doubt.

 

[CG4R12I4N]

Also when at this discussion, here's my hot take:

Modern so-called "FGC" as a whole is pretty much gatekeeping in the worst way and actually hurting ALL fighting game communities as a whole, from gamers to the devs.

 

[Tonberry]

Also when at this discussion, here's my hot take:

Modern so-called FGC as a whole is pretty much gatekeeping in the worst way and actually hurting ALL fighting game communities as a whole, from gamers to the devs.
View attachment 20162

Could you elaborate on this? I'm not sure what you mean, because I've felt that it's more welcoming than almost ever before?

 

[fake-kun]

Could you elaborate on this? I'm not sure what you mean, because I've felt that it's more welcoming than almost ever before?

Just look at the part of FGC that says Smash Bros. isn't a fighting game.

 

[YuriSukiSan]

I wasn't. Sorry if that's what it came off as.
I don't think Twitter posts or the like should be able to define any person, regardless of ideological spectrum or whether or not I agree with them, and my response was more a reaction to what I perceived as a west-bad-east-good mentality, which I think is reductive regardless of what stance one might have, which was also why I brought up Sugiyama as an example, because I think he was a scumbag, but I still like his professional work in Dragon Quest.
Humans are defined by much more than the shower thoughts they safely post onlin

I think more for me it's because I work in an industry that's public facing, I'm just a codemonkey but my public accounts are connected to my work. My linkedin, which I never post on! If I did, or said the type of stuff she did? I wouldn't have a job because it just isn't exceptable in France to call for violence. She holds a significant position in the company -- lead translator and public face for the English speaking part of a multi-million dollar game -- it's not as if she's some background character or minor figure, if that was the case I could understand. She's taken over the role of Koji, she's a developer in all but name for one of the biggest franchises the company has. I just wanted to emphasize that she's not some janitor or random person I'm plucking out of thin air!

Sugiyama disgusts me. I don't have anything polite to say about someone that could deny what happened in Nanjing, I don't think his work is bad but the moment he started actively denying that kind of thing he shouldn't have had a job.

I am personally against fascism, yes. It's not black and white though, and I believe the activists you mention further up aren't doing more diplomatic solutions any favors, but I reserve the right to be prejudiced against someone whose ideology, again, about violence and hate from the get-go.

There's very few people who are for facism, I understand there's a large grey area in most areas of life and maybe in the US Antifa are nice people. Over here they're mostly violent, destructive people and they attack anyone that disagrees with them. It doesn't matter how trivial, any difference of opinion = facism (which is an insane take) and they think that gives them the right to attack anyone. No matter who they are.

 

[CG4R12I4N]

It's gatekeeping in that it goes both ways. As in when the FGC do give the surge of huge newcomers interested in fighting games, it also invites whole lot of troubles that sometimes even not related to the fighting game culture itself.
The abovementioned 'Smash Bros vs Every FG else' is one, but also others like the whole quitters (disconnecting before losing to keep streak of wins in internet ranking battles) and even little things like internet connection/netcode issue (delay vs rollback) that COULD and WOULD affect the game sales if the devs aren't conforming to the FGC 'standards'.

So personally speaking, FGC is a gatekeeping that in itself needs to be gatekept because it's evolution soured the whole community, especially casual gamers that are only in purely to have fun.

 

[MasterEn]

There's very few people who are for facism, I understand there's a large grey area in most areas of life and maybe in the US Antifa are nice people. Over here they're mostly violent, destructive people and they attack anyone that disagrees with them. It doesn't matter how trivial, any difference of opinion = facism (which is an insane take) and they think that gives them the right to attack anyone. No matter who they are.

nope, they are the same over here. you are spot on with the last line of your text. 1,000,000,000,000%

 

[Tonberry]

I think more for me it's because I work in an industry that's public facing, I'm just a codemonkey but my public accounts are connected to my work. My linkedin, which I never post on! If I did, or said the type of stuff she did? I wouldn't have a job because it just isn't exceptable in France to call for violence. She holds a significant position in the company -- lead translator and public face for the English speaking part of a multi-million dollar game -- it's not as if she's some background character or minor figure, if that was the case I could understand. She's taken over the role of Koji, she's a developer in all but name for one of the biggest franchises the company has. I just wanted to emphasize that she's not some janitor or random person I'm plucking out of thin air!

Sugiyama disgusts me. I don't have anything polite to say about someone that could deny what happened in Nanjing, I don't think his work is bad but the moment he started actively denying that kind of thing he shouldn't have had a job.



There's very few people who are for facism, I understand there's a large grey area in most areas of life and maybe in the US Antifa are nice people. Over here they're mostly violent, destructive people and they attack anyone that disagrees with them. It doesn't matter how trivial, any difference of opinion = facism (which is an insane take) and they think that gives them the right to attack anyone. No matter who they are.

Thanks for clarifying, and again, sorry if I came off as too abrasive. It was more reactionary than I'd like to be.

I should say that I don't particularly care for Kate's work in XIV either, but I don't bother with devs' real life selves outside of their work or them actively representing the game (like on events or whatever), because I'm more interested in their work. While Sena's work is far from stellar, she had another thing to deal with where people decided her poor performance excused them of being transphobic.
Ultimately, I think the "poor state" the game is in now is exclusively Yoshida's fault, because he parades around like a mastermind auteur producer, so we'll have to take that impression as it comes, and he was clearly busy with 16 or whatever and maybe trusted his team too much and they ended up delivering a lackluster product.

There's very few people who are for facism, I understand there's a large grey area in most areas of life and maybe in the US Antifa are nice people. Over here they're mostly violent, destructive people and they attack anyone that disagrees with them. It doesn't matter how trivial, any difference of opinion = facism (which is an insane take) and they think that gives them the right to attack anyone. No matter who they are.

I'm Swedish, just to clarify. We've had enough trouble with actual fascists and nationalists and their ilk attempting (and succeeding to certain extents) to actively infiltrate and subvert our governments etc for over a decade, so I'm just fed up with giving them space.