Still trying to play through Banjo and i've started to notice I think one of the things that bothers me the most is how often your objectives just feel like busy work. Theres a lotta stuff I feel Banjo gets away with making you do that people would complain about in other platformers. Like Spyro has shit occasionally that just feels like that or just kinda wastes your time but it feels like thats such a big chunk of Banjo. Like shitting eggs in a basket 5 times isnt particularly engaging or fun to me lol. And theres a lot of missions that are like that and its just kinda nothing.
Also reporting in after a couple of hours in Banjo Kazooie. The combination of clunky underwater controls and an awful camera are making me want to play something else.
I drowned in Clanker's Cavern while trying to turn the key because the camera got stuck inside the anchor and I couldn't see where the air bubbles were. Normally, I wouldn't care about dying except I have to recollect all the music notes I already found. There are 100 of these fucking things in each level. I can see a kid with all the time in the world enjoying something like this but as an adult, I don't have the patience for a game that actively wastes my time.
Also reporting in after a couple of hours in Banjo Kazooie. The combination of clunky underwater controls and an awful camera are making me want to play something else.
I drowned in Clanker's Cavern while trying to turn the key because the camera got stuck inside the anchor and I couldn't see where the air bubbles were. Normally, I wouldn't care about dying except I have to recollect all the music notes I already found. There are 100 of these fucking things in each level. I can see a kid with all the time in the world enjoying something like this but as an adult, I don't have the patience for a game that actively wastes my time.
Even when I was younger, I found the game a bit much. It was always in that general bracket of N64 games that felt never-ending because they meandered so much.
Also reporting in after a couple of hours in Banjo Kazooie. The combination of clunky underwater controls and an awful camera are making me want to play something else.
I drowned in Clanker's Cavern while trying to turn the key because the camera got stuck inside the anchor and I couldn't see where the air bubbles were. Normally, I wouldn't care about dying except I have to recollect all the music notes I already found. There are 100 of these fucking things in each level. I can see a kid with all the time in the world enjoying something like this but as an adult, I don't have the patience for a game that actively wastes my time.
The same button to snap the camera to Banjo's back, correct? I haven't noticed a quicker turn while using it. Wouldn't have helped me anyway because the camera didn't feel like cooperating.
I wouldn't mind the controls if I didn't have to recollect the music notes. This isn't the first and won't be last game I play with controller/camera jank. By itself, the jank is fine. Combined with "repeat the first half of the level to recollect notes because fuck you" is obnoxious.
Also reporting in after a couple of hours in Banjo Kazooie. The combination of clunky underwater controls and an awful camera are making me want to play something else.
I drowned in Clanker's Cavern while trying to turn the key because the camera got stuck inside the anchor and I couldn't see where the air bubbles were. Normally, I wouldn't care about dying except I have to recollect all the music notes I already found. There are 100 of these fucking things in each level. I can see a kid with all the time in the world enjoying something like this but as an adult, I don't have the patience for a game that actively wastes my time.
Yeah that section is particularly awful. I think that's often considered the worst level along with Rusty Bucket bay. The note collecting thing wouldnt bother me nearly as much if you didn't need the vast majority of notes just in order to beat the game. But yeah the swimming controls are a pain.
The same button to snap the camera to Banjo's back, correct? I haven't noticed a quicker turn while using it. Wouldn't have helped me anyway because the camera didn't feel like cooperating.
I wouldn't mind the controls if I didn't have to recollect the music notes. This isn't the first and won't be last game I play with controller/camera jank. By itself, the jank is fine. Combined with "repeat the first half of the level to recollect notes because fuck you" is obnoxious.
It's not colleting them that's the problem, it's having to recollect them if you die before finishing collecting them. And you need most of them to beat the game. And recollecting them just isn't particularly fun when Banjo isn't the funnest character to control to begin with.... especially underwater.
Collecting them is not the issue. Recollecting them because you left the stage or died is ridiculous. The music notes and the Jinjo birds are the only collectibles that act this way. Everything else is static. Consistency is a good thing in video game design.
Collecting them is not the issue. Recollecting them because you left the stage or died is ridiculous. The music notes and the Jinjo birds are the only collectibles that act this way. Everything else is static. Consistency is a good thing in video game design.
Someone mentioned this, and I think it's a big factor. Banjo only had one bad game, not considering the GBA game I never played that. Spyro on the other hand? Enter the Dragonfly is all I gotta say, even though I don't hate it.
It's funny to me how closely knitted Crash Bandicoot and Spyro are as franchises. They have always been owned by the same groups since they started, never been apart. Crash (and Spyro) after the PS1 days kinda had some down time. While I really like the PS2 era of both, and think that they get unfair criticism, I can't ignore those criticisms.
Spyro went down this same route of experimentation that Crash did, where everyone who got the franchise was trying to re-invent it in new ways, some landed, some didn't. Aforementioned Enter the Dragonfly, while having a lot of cool ideas, was rushed like crazy, and even after the Greatest Hits edition still had insane bugs, including one right at the beginning where you can skip to the end boss.
A Hero's Tail was pretty good, different, but really cool with how it experimented, and Sgt. Byrd is that dude ngl.
But after that? The Legend series came, and with it, a really big change in how the game was played, and how the world and characters felt. Some people liked it (I think they are awesome) some people didn't. But it kinda marked a finale for the series for a while, it was just too different for a lot of fans to digest (kinda like Titans and Mind over Mutant with Crash.)
After that came Skylanders, and Spyro, albeit being in the title, became more of a side character to the hundred other toys that they wanted to sell, and so it was kinda immediately set aside by old fans, and really just kicked Spyro while he was already down. Even with the success that Skylanders was with kids, it didn't really reignite interest in Spyro, he was just another cool guy in the cool game.
Unfortunately, Spyro Reignited didn't really strike the same way that Crash N,Sane Trilogy did, and it's been case closed since then.
That's where I think this mainly stems from. Banjo Kazooie doesn't have this crazy mid era where they kept changing everything, it had the two awesome N64 games, a GBA game no one really remembers, and a shitty racing game that went from a proper sequel to a racing pile of dookie halfway through development.
On internet I regularly see Nintendo fans as a majority or at least a very passionate and vocal group. So they tend to overwhelm game discussions.
And much of them I think are from USA.
Basically, i enjoy both, but if i were to select one of them i would choose Banjo, it's fun honestly, but if it's Spyro 2 we are talking about, oh boy the balances change drastically.
Someone mentioned this, and I think it's a big factor. Banjo only had one bad game, not considering the GBA game I never played that. Spyro on the other hand? Enter the Dragonfly is all I gotta say, even though I don't hate it.
It's funny to me how closely knitted Crash Bandicoot and Spyro are as franchises. They have always been owned by the same groups since they started, never been apart. Crash (and Spyro) after the PS1 days kinda had some down time. While I really like the PS2 era of both, and think that they get unfair criticism, I can't ignore those criticisms.
Spyro went down this same route of experimentation that Crash did, where everyone who got the franchise was trying to re-invent it in new ways, some landed, some didn't. Aforementioned Enter the Dragonfly, while having a lot of cool ideas, was rushed like crazy, and even after the Greatest Hits edition still had insane bugs, including one right at the beginning where you can skip to the end boss.
A Hero's Tail was pretty good, different, but really cool with how it experimented, and Sgt. Byrd is that dude ngl.
But after that? The Legend series came, and with it, a really big change in how the game was played, and how the world and characters felt. Some people liked it (I think they are awesome) some people didn't. But it kinda marked a finale for the series for a while, it was just too different for a lot of fans to digest (kinda like Titans and Mind over Mutant with Crash.)
After that came Skylanders, and Spyro, albeit being in the title, became more of a side character to the hundred other toys that they wanted to sell, and so it was kinda immediately set aside by old fans, and really just kicked Spyro while he was already down. Even with the success that Skylanders was with kids, it didn't really reignite interest in Spyro, he was just another cool guy in the cool game.
Unfortunately, Spyro Reignited didn't really strike the same way that Crash N,Sane Trilogy did, and it's been case closed since then.
That's where I think this mainly stems from. Banjo Kazooie doesn't have this crazy mid era where they kept changing everything, it had the two awesome N64 games, a GBA game no one really remembers, and a shitty racing game that went from a proper sequel to a racing pile of dookie halfway through development.
I mean in Spyros defense Banjo doesn't have nearly as many games, and I think most people only really think of the first three by Insomniac when thinking of Spyro. I think some people liked those Gameboy advance ones though i've never touched them or been that interested. But also it just seems like a weird reason since as you mentioned Banjo ended on a sour note and was essentially headed in the same direction, it just died abruptly. Plus that's two classics for Banjo but three for Spyro.
I mean in Spyros defense Banjo doesn't have nearly as many games, and I think most people only really think of the first three by Insomniac when thinking of Spyro. I think some people liked those Gameboy advance ones though i've never touched them or been that interested. But also it just seems like a weird reason since as you mentioned Banjo ended on a sour note and was essentially headed in the same direction, it just died abruptly. Plus that's two classics for Banjo but three for Spyro.
So as I was typing my reply, I looked up the release dates for Banjo and it also released in 1998 alongside Spyro. Kinda killed the point I was gonna make here. Damn, still though. I at least think it was worth a mention. I do think the point others made of the N64 having less big blockbuster style games is a big factor as well, probably the main factor. I will point out that I'm a bit younger than the average user here, so my experiences with these franchises are a bit different, I was born after the PS1 and N64, and I think that's a factor in how I view them. Didn't even play Banjo until way after Spyro, because my friend put me on to them.
Those GBA Spyro games are fire though, the Crash and Spyro games bar Orange and Purple on GBA took the formula from the PS1 games and adapted them to the GBA, you might actually like them. The Banjo one I heard wasn't so bad either, but I haven't played that one so I'm not sure.
Also reporting in after a couple of hours in Banjo Kazooie. The combination of clunky underwater controls and an awful camera are making me want to play something else.
I drowned in Clanker's Cavern while trying to turn the key because the camera got stuck inside the anchor and I couldn't see where the air bubbles were. Normally, I wouldn't care about dying except I have to recollect all the music notes I already found. There are 100 of these fucking things in each level. I can see a kid with all the time in the world enjoying something like this but as an adult, I don't have the patience for a game that actively wastes my time.
Brother, you got me. I played both, I've beaten both, I still have no clue on why it's much more beloved. Like let's not fool ourselves, people love Spyro, but Banjo-Kazooie is on some sort of gilded pedestal for some reason. The vibes of a PS1 Spyro game are so much more sleeker and like a breath of cool air to the lungs when compared to the Teddy Bear Picnic rustic feel of a Banjo game.
Honest to god, I think the only reason this is a thing is because Rare developed it. If it were any other developer, this game would have been forgotten.
I don't have anything against Rare and they have put out bangers but this isn't one of them.
Honest to god, I think the only reason this is a thing is because Rare developed it. If it were any other developer, this game would have been forgotten.
I don't have anything against Rare and they have put out bangers but this isn't one of them.
Like dawg, Banjo is a fine game, but PS1 Spyro looks and sounds like a cool glass of water, it's crispy and refreshing. It's mana to the soul and I'm only talking in terms of aesthetics. It's also fast and fluid and feels great, Banjo is fine, but feels like molasses when we compare the two
I don't think there is any kind of consensus, but I will say that in terms of pop culture mythology, a lot of that was shaped by Nintendo fans in the late 2000s and 2010s. I have no idea why or how it happened, but when it comes to popular content creators most of them were first and foremost Nintendo kids and as such would have way more experience with Banjo than with Spyro. I think maybe that helps contribute to people having the perception that Banjo is a more iconic example of a collectathon than Spyro even though when you tally up sales figures Spyro certainly outperformed as an original trilogy.
Then again you can also chalk some of it up to the fact that in terms of software attachment rate, something like Spyro was probably adopted by a smaller percentage of PS1 users since that system sold waaaaay more. Maybe that just means more people who have anything to say about the N64 have more to say about Banjo, especially considering how much smaller the game library was. I'm sure some would say Banjo releasing first helps its cause, but considering most of the Youtube tastemakers are typically my age or a little older, I doubt they were really old enough to really feel it in any significant way.
Surface level anthropology ramblings aside I do think the Spyro games are just as good as Banjo. Banjo did feel "larger-than-life" in the sense that it had fewer levels that were all allowed to be more sprawling and epic. It also has far more cinematic presentation what with level flythroughs and a more dynamic camera. I could maybe see it leaving a far larger impression on a kid than Spyro if they played both at around the same time.
That said I do like Spyro more, maybe that's cause I grew up playing the original trilogy whilst not playing Banjo until high school though.
Honest to god, I think the only reason this is a thing is because Rare developed it. If it were any other developer, this game would have been forgotten.
I don't have anything against Rare and they have put out bangers but this isn't one of them.
Why does Rare seem to get so much backhanded praise these days? There seems to be an asterisk around that era of Rare as if they weren't releasing a lot of really dope software throughout the 90s (and even 2000s imo). I guess its because if people look at it qualitatively a lot of their games are typically seen as like 7s or 8s with distinct personalities that would really appeal to certain players who click with it as opposed to a lot of other all-time classics that are typically revered as 9s or 10s with generally broader appeal.
Ig that is the big difference between something that is considered a classic and something that is considered a cult classic. Since Rare's stuff was so popular at the time though it has the appeal of a cult classic with the sales figures of a classic.
I think it's worth looking into surface level anthropology in gaming @Somnia, because this topic not only applies to Spyro vs Banjo. Console fanaticism did rob many games of the right appreciation.
So as I was typing my reply, I looked up the release dates for Banjo and it also released in 1998 alongside Spyro. Kinda killed the point I was gonna make here. Damn, still though. I at least think it was worth a mention. I do think the point others made of the N64 having less big blockbuster style games is a big factor as well, probably the main factor. I will point out that I'm a bit younger than the average user here, so my experiences with these franchises are a bit different, I was born after the PS1 and N64, and I think that's a factor in how I view them. Didn't even play Banjo until way after Spyro, because my friend put me on to them.
Those GBA Spyro games are fire though, the Crash and Spyro games bar Orange and Purple on GBA took the formula from the PS1 games and adapted them to the GBA, you might actually like them. The Banjo one I heard wasn't so bad either, but I haven't played that one so I'm not sure.
Honest to god, I think the only reason this is a thing is because Rare developed it. If it were any other developer, this game would have been forgotten.
I don't have anything against Rare and they have put out bangers but this isn't one of them.
I don't think there is any kind of consensus, but I will say that in terms of pop culture mythology, a lot of that was shaped by Nintendo fans in the late 2000s and 2010s. I have no idea why or how it happened, but when it comes to popular content creators most of them were first and foremost Nintendo kids and as such would have way more experience with Banjo than with Spyro. I think maybe that helps contribute to people having the perception that Banjo is a more iconic example of a collectathon than Spyro even though when you tally up sales figures Spyro certainly outperformed as an original trilogy.
Then again you can also chalk some of it up to the fact that in terms of software attachment rate, something like Spyro was probably adopted by a smaller percentage of PS1 users since that system sold waaaaay more. Maybe that just means more people who have anything to say about the N64 have more to say about Banjo, especially considering how much smaller the game library was. I'm sure some would say Banjo releasing first helps its cause, but considering most of the Youtube tastemakers are typically my age or a little older, I doubt they were really old enough to really feel it in any significant way.
Surface level anthropology ramblings aside I do think the Spyro games are just as good as Banjo. Banjo did feel "larger-than-life" in the sense that it had fewer levels that were all allowed to be more sprawling and epic. It also has far more cinematic presentation what with level flythroughs and a more dynamic camera. I could maybe see it leaving a far larger impression on a kid than Spyro if they played both at around the same time.
That said I do like Spyro more, maybe that's cause I grew up playing the original trilogy whilst not playing Banjo until high school though.
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Why does Rare seem to get so much backhanded praise these days? There seems to be an asterisk around that era of Rare as if they weren't releasing a lot of really dope software throughout the 90s (and even 2000s imo). I guess its because if people look at it qualitatively a lot of their games are typically seen as like 7s or 8s with distinct personalities that would really appeal to certain players who click with it as opposed to a lot of other all-time classics that are typically revered as 9s or 10s with generally broader appeal.
Ig that is the big difference between something that is considered a classic and something that is considered a cult classic. Since Rare's stuff was so popular at the time though it has the appeal of a cult classic with the sales figures of a classic.
Since everyones brought it up, I do think theres merit to the fact that its an iconic N64 game and being made by Rare that boosts its popularity. The only thing is Donkey Kong 64, Banjo Tooie, and Conker aren't put nearly on the same pedestal. I actually see way more discussion on how those games are mediocre, or just downright bad and don't hold a candle to Banjo Kazooie. A big thing I see being mentioned is that Tooie and DK64 are too bloated and Conker is too unpolished and frustrating. I havent played DK64 or Tooie but personally I actually love Conker and find it way more fun and less frustrating than Banjo Kazooie. Conker is flawed and definitely clunky but as an overall experience I get a lot out of it but I can see where a lot of the criticisms come from. That said Conkers a much better swimmer than Banjo and Kazooie >.>
Why does Rare seem to get so much backhanded praise these days? There seems to be an asterisk around that era of Rare as if they weren't releasing a lot of really dope software throughout the 90s (and even 2000s imo).
That wasn't my intention and I apologize that it came across that way. My intention was to suggest that because Rare is such a revered game studio with an impressive catalogue of games, fans are less likely to judge a Rare game based on its individual merits and more likely to just run with the logic of "It's a Rare game; thus, it must be good."
I've always seen Banjo Kazooie as a more slow paced action adventure game and Spyro was more about flow and smooth gameplay. I know they're both "collect-athons" but it's almost apples and oranges for me. It would be impossible for me to say which one I like more because I love them so much.
Banjo feels so densely packed and detailed and Spyro feels more spaced out and surreal. They both rule.
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