The paradigm shift in RPGs

[SkunkyBeaumont]

The ATB system was designed to be real time, setting it to wait is like playing Doom on anything other then Ultra Violence, or the FInal Fantasy II version of IV. The new Final Fantasy games allow you to opt out of the outdated turn based battles completely, so again, not a good argument.

Also, no one ever said real time battle systems had to be action RPGs, in fact, someone already argued that point.

The point is, the RPGs people remember from the SNES for the trail blazing RPGs that moved away from turn based battles, aside from Dragon Quest games, which are litterally turn based BECAUSE it's outdated. It's the literal point.

 

[Strategist's icon Strategist Strategist]

The ATB system was designed to be real time, not using it is like playing Doom on anything other then Ultra Violence. The new Final Fantasy games allow you to opt out of the outdated turn based completely, so again, not a good argument.

Depends on what you mean by "real time". It is clearly not a real time simulation as your actions on the input device do not correlate 1 to 1 with actions on the screen. That's the only valid definition of a real time game to me. ATB to me is still turn based with real time elements intended to give it more dynamism.

 

[SkunkyBeaumont]

Depends on what you mean by "real time". It is clearly not a real time simulation as your actions on the input device do not correlate 1 to 1 with actions on the screen. That's the only valid definition of a real time game to me. ATB to me is still turn based with real time elements intended to give it more dynamism.

You clearly haven't played the games. Yes they do, a couple of them even allow you to have two controllers controlling the action. Yes, you use the menu to input commands, but if set to active, the computer continues pummeling you after their cool down timers. It's literally just cool down timers. It takes a certain amount of time for each action to come out, in real time. It's where WoW got the idea for cool down timers.

Turn Based is 1 to 1 turns. Each combatant gets 1 action a turn. ATB the action comes up based on speed, so it's already not 1 to 1 if set to wait, as each party members actions come up based on the speed statistic.

Post automatically merged: Jan 14, 2025

Then certain actions have a charge time in some games, like 4. 5 they came out instantly.

 

[moonbits]

It always felt to me like Square wanted FF to move on from turn based gameplay since 12. Then came 13 with the ATB Queue Paradigm Shifting craziness and eventual we arrived at 15 and then 16/7R. If you want, you can blame Tetsuya Nomura.

 

[RetroLaw]

The ATB system was designed to be real time, setting it to wait is like playing Doom on anything other then Ultra Violence, or the FInal Fantasy II version of IV. The new Final Fantasy games allow you to opt out of the outdated turn based battles completely, so again, not a good argument.

Also, no one ever said real time battle systems had to be action RPGs, in fact, someone already argued that point.

The point is, the RPGs people remember from the SNES for the trail blazing RPGs that moved away from turn based battles, aside from Dragon Quest games, which are litterally turn based BECAUSE it's outdated. It's the literal point.

I'm a filthy casual, I use the option wait without any shame.

 

[Strategist's icon Strategist Strategist]

You clearly haven't played the games.

Ummmmm. lol. Have you seen my avatar?

Turn Based is 1 to 1 turns. Each combatant gets 1 action a turn. ATB the action comes up based on speed, so it's already not 1 to 1 if set to wait, as each party members actions come up based on the speed statistic.

Post automatically merged: Jan 14, 2025

Then certain actions have a charge time in some games, like 4. 5 they came out instantly.

Not necessarily. The use of a speed stat does not remove the possibility of a turn based game. The characters are still taking turns, just some turns come up sooner than others. The turn order changes dynamically. I will concede that it is a hybrid between real time and turn based and not quite fully on either side.

 

[SkunkyBeaumont]

Good enough for me

 

[Auriiya]

If you like Baldur's Gate 3, you should try the Divinity: Original Sin series. Those games started "everything is interactive" gameplay style in a turn based RPG (well, some of that style can be traced to the Ultima series, but I digress)



Tactics Ogre is basically the spiritual ancestor of Final Fantasy Tactics. Covers similar ground in my opinion.

And yes, most Japanese kids grow up reading manga and are very familiar with those tropes. Not sure if they read much of Shakespeare or Western fantasy over there, so it makes sense that the game developers focus on the stories that are familiar to that audience. It doesn't help that the most popular JRPG series was created by a Mangaka (Dragon Quest). Everyone followed suit from there.

Tatics oger and oger battle team went on and played a huge role in the development of ff tactics .I believe the former name was Riverbend studios? I hope I got the name completely correct.alot of ff tactics team was devs for tactics oger and oger battle.

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

ATB is legit one of my fav system in RPGs.

 

[Strategist's icon Strategist Strategist]

Tatics oger and oger battle team went on and played a huge role in the development of ff tactics .I believe the former name was Riverbend studios? I hope I got the name completely correct.

Quest was the publisher of the Ogre Battle games. I believe Artdink was also involved in the playstation ports.

 

[Yousef]

not to ask an unrelated question, but you guys played “Yakuza: Like a Dragon” and “Like a Dragon: Infinite Wealth”? Awkward localized names aside (Japan just calls them 7 and 8 as they should), the devs wanted those games to be “Action Turn Based”

If you never played Yakuza 7 and 8, they… kinda achieved that correctly? But there’s one issue.
“Action turn based” is both an idea with a lot of potential… and a lot of problems. Lol.

 

[SkunkyBeaumont]

Tatics oger and oger battle team went on and played a huge role in the development of ff tactics .I believe the former name was Riverbend studios? I hope I got the name completely correct.alot of ff tactics team was devs for tactics oger and oger battle.

The game director was pouched from Quest by Squaresoft basically to make Final Fantasy Tactics. Interestingly enough, Square Enix now owns Quest and their IP. Could be more Ogre Battle games that aren't remakes?

 

[fake-kun]

ATB is legit one of my fav system in RPGs.

I prefer MMBN battle system.

 

[Gorse]

I don't really get what the big deal is with ATB. It's still a turn-based menu game, just... slightly slower or faster, occasionally.

 

[Yousef]

My favorite is FFX condition battle system

Post automatically merged: Jan 14, 2025

I don't really get what the big deal is with ATB. It's still a turn-based menu game, just... slightly slower or faster, occasionally.

Sorry if I misunderstood, but do you mean “you don’t get it” as in the appeal? If so you’re not wrong at all. It’s still turn based and like @Strategist pointed out, you don’t even have to engage with it period as you can simply set battle to “wait”. I did that on my first playthrough. My second went with default settings.

 

[SkunkyBeaumont]

My favorite is FFX condition battle system

Post automatically merged: Jan 14, 2025

Sorry if I misunderstood, but do you mean “you don’t get it” as in the appeal? If so you’re not wrong at all. It’s still turn based and like @Strategist pointed out, you don’t even have to engage with it period as you can simply set battle to “wait”. I did that on my first playthrough. My second went with default settings.

You gotta go active, then crank the speed all the way up. Set cursor to memory, and hold b/x to win.

Or don’t on the mist dragon

 

[Auriiya]

The game director was pouched from Quest by Squaresoft basically to make Final Fantasy Tactics. Interestingly enough, Square Enix now owns Quest and their IP. Could be more Ogre Battle games that aren't remakes?

Here's a link to some history.enjoy the read.
Tactics Ogre – 1995 Developer Interview - shmuplations.com https://search.app/E255tHTBxCK3NvB87

 

[Strategist's icon Strategist Strategist]

Here's a link to some history.enjoy the read.
Tactics Ogre – 1995 Developer Interview - shmuplations.com https://search.app/E255tHTBxCK3NvB87

That's neat. I love reading these behind the scenes stories from the developer's perspective.

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

I also like the CTB from FFX.

 

[SkunkyBeaumont]

I also like the CTB from FFX.

I like how they aped the whole party being there dynamic from Dragon Quest IV onwards and BoF series.

 

[AI_Apex_Predator]

I just came in to say: I really like Grandia's battle system.

Valkyrie Profile is my other favorite. I mentioned Trails of Cold Steel before, but that battle system is fun af to break.

 

[CaptainJupiter]

I really like turn based RPGs, and its really sucked to see a lot of franchises, especially Final Fantasy, abandon that style for (in my opinion) mediocre at best action/rpg gameplay. I am happy that we still get some big turn based RPGs, like Yakuza 7 & Infinite Wealth and (admittedly in a slightly different form) Baldur's Gate 3, but I think I'll always miss the old style Final Fantasy games, with FF V, VI and IX being my favorites.

 

[hazys]

I don't really think turn-based is in any danger. The only series abandoning it is Final Fantasy, and they've always been chasing the "multi-million seller cinematic AAA blockbuster" dragon. If Persona or Dragon Quest abandoned turn-based I'd start to get worried.

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

I really like turn based RPGs, and its really sucked to see a lot of franchises, especially Final Fantasy, abandon that style for (in my opinion) mediocre at best action/rpg gameplay. I am happy that we still get some big turn based RPGs, like Yakuza 7 & Infinite Wealth and (admittedly in a slightly different form) Baldur's Gate 3, but I think I'll always miss the old style Final Fantasy games, with FF V, VI and IX being my favorites.

I don't really think turn-based is in any danger. The only series abandoning it is Final Fantasy, and they've always been chasing the "multi-million seller cinematic AAA blockbuster" dragon.

Phantasy Star shifted from turn based to action when it came to 3D but that was because it was more convenient for online play (and because PSO was inspired by Diablo according to the devs).

Now they could've had turn based spin-offs but they kept it action.

If Persona or Dragon Quest abandoned turn-based I'd start to get worried.

I wouldn't mind if it's a spinoff (like DQ builders or Hero).

Raidou could've gotten another game I think.

 

[Yousef]

I also like the CTB from FFX.

Hell yeah!