The paradigm shift in RPGs

[starseeker300]

strategy rpgs have more or less remained the same but i like em that way, as long as the map design is good ill be happy.

honestly as long as the level and/or battle system design is good ill be happy

after all in the famous words of reggie

 

[RageBurner]

strategy rpgs have more or less remained the same but i like em that way, as long as the map design is good ill be happy.

honestly as long as the level and/or battle system design is good ill be happy

after all in the famous words of reggie

Agreed, actual fun always needs to be a design philosophy consideration.

 

[SkunkyBeaumont]

The SNES has an insane amount of turn-based RPGs, several times more than action RPGs, and only Square used the ATB in a handful of games. It was absolutely not a throwback at the time. You started seeing more attempts at making turn-based more interesting in the following generations, by adding various gimmicks to the battle systems, including timing-based elements, but the systems were essentially still turn-based in a very large proportion of console/Japanese RPGs, as is the ATB system. This trend of action taking over is much more recent.

Just because there are a lot of games doesn't mean they aren't throwbacks. If you look at the SNES, that's the System that Gave us the ATB system on a whopping 4 games, the Linear Battle System for Tales of Phantasia, and whatever the Star Ocean battle system was called. Even blobbers had been moving towards real time implementations of their systems since Dungeon Master. Throwback is not a bad term, but even back then, Dragon Quest was playing up the "Traditional RPG elements" . I mean, even on the NES, you had Chronicle of Radia Wars, Ys, River City Ranson, Dungeon Magic, and other such action and real time RPGs innovating the landscape.

Not calling them bad games, but even at the time, tradittonal RPGs with turn based mechanics were throwbacks to a previous era, and also weren't super popular at the time in the west, which is why we got Mystic Quest instead of FInal Fantasy 5. The Japanese companies thought westerners were too stupid to figure out their games.

 

[mammonite]

apparently , open world just pulls a lot of money, turn based doesn't stand a chance unless it's persona 5 calibre.

 

[SkunkyBeaumont]

apparently , open world just pulls a lot of money, turn based doesn't stand a chance unless it's persona 5 calibre.

Or you could play the latest Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest remakes. The beauty of this kinda of game is you don't really need boss hardware to run a traditional style RPG. Look at Dragon Quest 1, that game was obsolete when it released, but is still awesome to this day.

 

[RetroLaw]

As long as you can speed up the battles, I usually prefer turn based.

I would have never gone back to Wild Arms or play it's remastered version if it weren't for the emulation fast forward options.

It seems likes most turn based RPGs nowadays have a speed up option.

 

[Tonberry]

I was thinking about this lately; pretty much anything that gets remade these days in the RPG space gets its turn based combat ripped out and replaced by action driven style.

There are exceptions of course (Romancing Saga 2 Remake is a shining example), as is Dragon Quest. As a rule, though, it seems like an unutterable blasphemy to have AAA stuff be turn based.

I know why they do it, so that wide eyed young ones can have some bombastic action with their poorly optimized, DLSS requiring "masterpieces ".

Yes I'm ranting... just give me back my turns.

Edit: The second I posted this I noticed you said remakes in your post, so I was probably way off in my text.

Original port: I kind of feel the opposite way? It feels like turn-based RPGs are entering another golden era, so to speak. The last two years we've had lots of huge titles with traditional turn-based combat systems, from Baldur's Gate 3, Like a Dragon 7/8, Persona, SMT, Mario & Luigi, Metaphor, just to name a few off the top of my head.

 

[MrFabulous]

Even the Persona series and SMT which are still primarily known as turn-based games are constantly trying to cut down the amount of actions or menu navigation per battle, in a way that I think makes the combat much more shallow overall. I love turn-based combat but the press turn system only rewards simplistic tactics and makes regular encounters little more than an exercise in memorization.

Even the Falcom games are going in this direction, with more emphasis on field combat and the most effective strategy in combat being whatever you need to do to delay enemy action as long as possible. I'm not saying this style can't be fun but in classic turn based RPGs (even western ones) there was a degree of strategy that doesn't really exist now because it feels like developers are afraid to ask too much of the player's time. There used to be a trade-off to things like buffing and debuffing, to elemental resistances and different defence values, but even if these things show up in a modern game (ie. Metaphor: R) they're so underbaked because the only useful strat is what ends the fight quicker.

 

[SkunkyBeaumont]

Even the Persona series and SMT which are still primarily known as turn-based games are constantly trying to cut down the amount of actions or menu navigation per battle, in a way that I think makes the combat much more shallow overall. I love turn-based combat but the press turn system only rewards simplistic tactics and makes regular encounters little more than an exercise in memorization.

Even the Falcom games are going in this direction, with more emphasis on field combat and the most effective strategy in combat being whatever you need to do to delay enemy action as long as possible. I'm not saying this style can't be fun but in classic turn based RPGs (even western ones) there was a degree of strategy that doesn't really exist now because it feels like developers are afraid to ask too much of the player's time. There used to be a trade-off to things like buffing and debuffing, to elemental resistances and different defence values, but even if these things show up in a modern game (ie. Metaphor: R) they're so underbaked because the only useful strat is what ends the fight quicker.

The problem is twofold. First, the games that are being made with turn based combat in mind are not being made based on gameplay mechanics, but story. Now, the problem being is there isn't a lot of player agency in JRPGs, and the focus is on the story telling as opposed to the gameplay, and trust me guys, the older you get, the less you empathize with your average Shonen style story.

This brings us the second problem, which is the lack of gameplay innovation in turn based battle systems. We're talking about a battle system that has really been there and done that. The OG, a 50 year old behemoth of a mechanic that I really doubt you could do anything new with, I think the last game to really make an interesting tweak to turn based combat was Earthbound (Mother 2) with the HP counters rolling in real time. If you acted quick enough, you could save a character from lethal damage.

 

[Gorse]

I also think the genre needs better writing. Things that make people feel, or stories that make people question their perception. No more standard manga tropes + terrible pacing.

I agree completely, but how on earth can this realistically be done? (In a way that isn't just a post-modern deconstruction like Undertale and its ilk.) The very genre, especially as it stands today, is interlinked so tightly with manga and anime, in its every facet, that I don't see what else you can do besides the stock "WE'LL NEVER GIVE UP FIGHTING YOU EVIL VILLAIN!!!!! LET'S USE THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP" and the anti-stock "DID YOU KNOW THAT EVERY TIME YOU FOUGHT AN ENEMY IT WAS ACTUALLY BAD???? I'LL TAKE MY BAFTA NOW" writing. It's kind of the original sin of the genre.

I'd love to play a JRPG with the writing quality of, say, a book, but I simply don't think the people making them are that skilled, nor do I think there's much interest in the player side for legitimately complex stories. In that case, maybe it would be better to lean into trope-y genre stuff, like those comedy JRPGs from Quintent or all those weird Japan-only artsy ones that were coming out in the SNES/PS1 era.

 

[MrFabulous]

trust me guys, the older you get, the less you empathize with your average Shonen style story.

I will never get tired of the power of friendship or justice defeating some kind of all encompassing darkness, it's over for me.

If I had to guess what really started to ruin turn-based combat for people was flaws in overall game design, and the way that it diminished enthusiasm for the player. At its best, turn-based combat is a combination of high stakes and low skill requirement that makes it pretty easy to master general enemy encounters, so the only way to compensate for that and maintain interest was to do what RPG's like Wizardry did and punish lack of preparation (and bad luck) and any flaw in the execution of your commands or do what most of the console RPG's did and try to wear you down with encounter volume. Simplifying the combat is the easiest way to have some rewarding combat without alienating the player.

Over time though these encounters just become forgettable and there's no easy way to increase the level of challenge because the combat system complexity just isn't there, so now we have the genre mainstay of optional super-bosses that exploit some deliberately unfair mechanic or have arbitrarily high health and damage values.

EDIT: Since it's come up, I would like to say that the perception of the writing quality in a lot of JRPGs is heavily affected by poor quality translation, you can read statements by these writers (eg. Takahashi, Matsuno, Nishitani) that show they're clearly thinking about things in depth but they either choose not to explore some elements because of audience expectations and for fans abroad, a flat and uninspired translation means a lot of fans just assume that story is an afterthought.

 

[SkunkyBeaumont]

I will never get tired of the power of friendship or justice defeating some kind of all encompassing darkness, it's over for me.

If I had to guess what really started to ruin turn-based combat for people was flaws in overall game design, and the way that it diminished enthusiasm for the player. At its best, turn-based combat is a combination of high stakes and low skill requirement that makes it pretty easy to master general enemy encounters, so the only way to compensate for that and maintain interest was to do what RPG's like Wizardry did and punish lack of preparation (and bad luck) and any flaw in the execution of your commands or do what most of the console RPG's did and try to wear you down with encounter volume. Simplifying the combat is the easiest way to have some rewarding combat without alienating the player.

Over time though these encounters just become forgettable and there's no easy way to increase the level of challenge because the combat system complexity just isn't there, so now we have the genre mainstay of optional super-bosses that exploit some deliberately unfair mechanic or have arbitrarily high health and damage values.

Like in SMT. You can totally abuse the combat mechanics to stun lock every single boss into submission, and it's the Third Game in the series!

 

[What's His Face]

I agree completely, but how on earth can this realistically be done? (In a way that isn't just a post-modern deconstruction like Undertale and its ilk.) The very genre, especially as it stands today, is interlinked so tightly with manga and anime, in its every facet, that I don't see what else you can do besides the stock "WE'LL NEVER GIVE UP FIGHTING YOU EVIL VILLAIN!!!!! LET'S USE THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP" and the anti-stock "DID YOU KNOW THAT EVERY TIME YOU FOUGHT AN ENEMY IT WAS ACTUALLY BAD???? I'LL TAKE MY BAFTA NOW" writing. It's kind of the original sin of the genre.

I'd love to play a JRPG with the writing quality of, say, a book, but I simply don't think the people making them are that skilled, nor do I think there's much interest in the player side for legitimately complex stories. In that case, maybe it would be better to lean into trope-y genre stuff, like those comedy JRPGs from Quintent or all those weird Japan-only artsy ones that were coming out in the SNES/PS1 era.

The problem here is two-fold.

1. Anime/Manga sell. Copying the story style of anime & manga is an easy way to appeal to those consumers who are already willing to part with their disposable income.

2. The more complex the story, the less the gameplay. Not due to data restrictions or whatnot, but because peoples' attention spans are pretty-well crap, and have been steadily getting worse since the 1950's and the world pumping lead into the air via leaded gasoline (the less said about the sharp drop after the advent of social media the better). A complex story in a book is great because you're taking your time to read through it, engaging the brain on a deeper level than audio/visual media does, and you can take your book with you anywhere to read in long-or-short periods of time. Because of this, people tend to forget important plot details after spending 4+ hours in a a mountain cave network doing nothing but grinding/exploring, then putting the game down for a few days for life requirements. It's a two-fold loss-of-attention - long periods of time between plot and lower brain engagement on said story. Hell, a lot of games now come with a "Story So Far..." like Rogue Galaxy when you boot-up a save, or a story appendix like the Tales series so you can read-up on what you were last doing.

 

[Strategist]

I agree completely, but how on earth can this realistically be done? (In a way that isn't just a post-modern deconstruction like Undertale and its ilk.) The very genre, especially as it stands today, is interlinked so tightly with manga and anime, in its every facet, that I don't see what else you can do besides the stock "WE'LL NEVER GIVE UP FIGHTING YOU EVIL VILLAIN!!!!! LET'S USE THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP" and the anti-stock "DID YOU KNOW THAT EVERY TIME YOU FOUGHT AN ENEMY IT WAS ACTUALLY BAD???? I'LL TAKE MY BAFTA NOW" writing. It's kind of the original sin of the genre.

I'd love to play a JRPG with the writing quality of, say, a book, but I simply don't think the people making them are that skilled, nor do I think there's much interest in the player side for legitimately complex stories. In that case, maybe it would be better to lean into trope-y genre stuff, like those comedy JRPGs from Quintent or all those weird Japan-only artsy ones that were coming out in the SNES/PS1 era.

There are plenty of examples of Japanese RPGs that don't follow the anime tropes. Final Fantasy Tactics and Vagrant Story try to be more Shakespearian in their storytelling.

 

[SkunkyBeaumont]

There are plenty of examples of Japanese RPGs that don't follow the anime tropes. Final Fantasy Tactics and Vagrant Story try to be more Shakespearian in their storytelling.

Try being the operative word. Delita is no Hamlet, that's for sure. The best thing about tactics is definitely the epic battles and army customization, but they do a good deal of lore and storytelling through emergent gameplay in FFT, but It basically is about a plucky cast of preteens who fight god storytelling wise.

 

[Strategist]

Try being the operative word. Delita is no Hamlet, that's for sure. The best thing about tactics is definitely the epic battles and army customization, but they do a good deal of lore and storytelling through emergent gameplay in FFT, but It basically is about a plucky cast of preteens who fight god storytelling wise.

I don't see what about it being focused on teenagers makes it less Shakespearian. Hamlet was a teenager too. The fighting god part happens in the last act and is kind of thrown in last minute. Most of the story is political intrigue.

 

[SkunkyBeaumont]

I don't see what about it being focused on teenagers makes it less Shakespearian. Hamlet was a teenager too. The fighting god part happens in the last act and is kind of thrown in last minute. Most of the story is political intrigue.

Then the kids go literally fight god who was behind it all, instead of all dying.

Post automatically merged: Jan 13, 2025

I'm not trying to diss on Final Fantasy Tactics mind you, I love that game, it's perhaps the G.O.A.T., But calling the story Shakespearian is a bit of a stretch, bearing in mind it's target audience of... Japanese teenagers, it does a really good job.

 

[Tonberry]

I notice most people are talking about JRPGs specifically, but I still want to shout out the combat in Baldur's Gate 3, since I'm in the middle of playing it.

At first, I thought it was nothing more than another DnD system translated to a video game, and it stings early on since it feels like the game knows all the tricks and you know none, but right now about 40 hours in I feel that the combat is insanely well-crafted. There's insane amounts of creativity, synergy and interactivity with the environments and your class compositions that can be had if you feel like it. At one boss encounter, I feared the boss with one character, which made her drop her extremely powerful sword. I then proceeded to pick up the sword as another character and equip it, claiming it for myself. In the same fight, I also placed a bunch of boxes in front of a door, preventing reinforcements, while my mage teleported up onto a pile of rubble and couldn't be reached by the other enemies.
I thought that was really refreshing and that is likely one of the factors that truly makes the game feel like a "next gen" RPG.

Try being the operative word. Delita is no Hamlet, that's for sure. The best thing about tactics is definitely the epic battles and army customization, but they do a good deal of lore and storytelling through emergent gameplay in FFT, but It basically is about a plucky cast of preteens who fight god storytelling wise.

It's important to keep in mind that these games are made with particular audiences in mind, still. Final Fantasy has always been aimed at teenagers/young adults, so naturally it'll retain many of those themes in the games.
I personally think Tactics Ogre is a better candidate for a similar game that doesn't shy away from more "grounded" fantasy themes.

I also sort of believe there tends to be somewhat of a culture shock when it comes to japanese fantasy games, since japanese audiences by and large seem more receptive of stories that center around young people. This is by no means a rule or anything, but there are plenty of western games that have sort of become staples for more mature stories being told in fantasy games/RPGs. Sometimes it's as simple as not being as easily immersed in a "cartoony" style compared to something like The Witcher 3, even though there probably are japanese games with the same "serious" tone as that game.
Even Final Fantasy 16, which (supposedly) tried really hard to present itself as more gritty, is still hampered in the west because people still think that the characters are simply too beautiful to be taken seriously in such a setting. (It also sucks but that's a different can of worms entirely)

It's also important to remember that video games are video games, and even though we've seen massive strides in making stories more expansive and important, there's still a discrepancy due to the interactivity still being interwoven with the medium, which lends itself to creating situations like "you have to defeat this level 44 boss with your weapon you crafted in a mini-game to proceed" which, if translated poorly, can shatter the immersion if you're more invested in the story of a game, than the gameplay itself.

I understand being tired of tropes, but sometimes all it takes is something refreshing to be able to look at the tropes from a different perspective. Classics are classics for a reason, after all.

 

[SkunkyBeaumont]

I'm totally jonsing for some Tactics right now, you bastards.

 

[Strategist]

I notice most people are talking about JRPGs specifically, but I still want to shout out the combat in Baldur's Gate 3, since I'm in the middle of playing it.

At first, I thought it was nothing more than another DnD system translated to a video game, and it stings early on since it feels like the game knows all the tricks and you know none, but right now about 40 hours in I feel that the combat is insanely well-crafted. There's insane amounts of creativity, synergy and interactivity with the environments and your class compositions that can be had if you feel like it. At one boss encounter, I feared the boss with one character, which made her drop her extremely powerful sword. I then proceeded to pick up the sword as another character and equip it, claiming it for myself. In the same fight, I also placed a bunch of boxes in front of a door, preventing reinforcements, while my mage teleported up onto a pile of rubble and couldn't be reached by the other enemies.
I thought that was really refreshing and that is likely one of the factors that truly makes the game feel like a "next gen" RPG.

If you like Baldur's Gate 3, you should try the Divinity: Original Sin series. Those games started "everything is interactive" gameplay style in a turn based RPG (well, some of that style can be traced to the Ultima series, but I digress)

It's important to keep in mind that these games are made with particular audiences in mind, still. Final Fantasy has always been aimed at teenagers/young adults, so naturally it'll retain many of those themes in the games.
I personally think Tactics Ogre is a better candidate for a similar game that doesn't shy away from more "grounded" fantasy themes.

I also sort of believe there tends to be somewhat of a culture shock when it comes to japanese fantasy games, since japanese audiences by and large seem more receptive of stories that center around young people. This is by no means a rule or anything, but there are plenty of western games that have sort of become staples for more mature stories being told in fantasy games/RPGs. Sometimes it's as simple as not being as easily immersed in a "cartoony" style compared to something like The Witcher 3, even though there probably are japanese games with the same "serious" tone as that game.
Even Final Fantasy 16, which (supposedly) tried really hard to present itself as more gritty, is still hampered in the west because people still think that the characters are simply too beautiful to be taken seriously in such a setting. (It also sucks but that's a different can of worms entirely)

Tactics Ogre is basically the spiritual ancestor of Final Fantasy Tactics. Covers similar ground in my opinion.

And yes, most Japanese kids grow up reading manga and are very familiar with those tropes. Not sure if they read much of Shakespeare or Western fantasy over there, so it makes sense that the game developers focus on the stories that are familiar to that audience. It doesn't help that the most popular JRPG series was created by a Mangaka (Dragon Quest). Everyone followed suit from there.

 

[Tonberry]

I'm totally jonsing for some Tactics right now, you bastards.

I didn't grow up with it so I'm really excited to try out the PSP version with the lag patched out. Since I don't have a connection to the original I think the flowery text and purple prose looks really cool.

If you like Baldur's Gate 3, you should try the Divinity: Original Sin series. Those games started "everything is interactive" gameplay style in a turn based RPG (well, some of that style can be traced to the Ultima series, but I digress)



Tactics Ogre is basically the spiritual ancestor of Final Fantasy Tactics. Covers similar ground in my opinion.

And yes, most Japanese kids grow up reading manga and are very familiar with those tropes. Not sure if they read much of Shakespeare or Western fantasy over there, so it makes sense that the game developers focus on the stories that are familiar to that audience. It doesn't help that the most popular JRPG series was created by a Mangaka (Dragon Quest). Everyone followed suit from there.

I have Divinity Original Sin 2, but I hadn't warmed up to CRPGs when I first tried it, so I'm looking forward to playing it after BG3.
It wasn't until I played Baldur's Gate 1 a while back that CRPGs in general clicked with me, so I have a lot of cool stuff to catch up on, both turn-based and the frankly dogshit real time with pause spamfest lol.

 

[moonbits]

As an action game fan, I am happy that some classics are remade like that.

The classic is still there if you want turn based games.

Also what does DLSS have to with anything?

 

[RetroLaw]

As an action game fan, I am happy that some classics are remade like that.

The classic is still there if you want turn based games.

Also what does DLSS have to with anything?

I love action games but action rpgs don't do much for me combat wise, it's more about stats than skill at the end of the day and the combat system are often pretty meh.

Last one I played was Ys8 and the gameplay boiled down to perfect parry / dodge, felt more like a rythm game than anything.

I do enjoy action rpgs (I loved the Trials of Mana remake) but I don't see them as action games.

 

[Strategist]

As an action game fan, I am happy that some classics are remade like that.

The classic is still there if you want turn based games.

Also what does DLSS have to with anything?

I'm not against action gamers getting to enjoy their games.

But the lie that turn based games cannot sell or are outdated bothers me. They can sell if they have interesting mechanics, good presentation and are marketed well. Just like any other game.

 

[Gorse]

Another thing I'd wish they'd stop doing with modern turn-based JRPGs is using that garish "HD 2D" Octopath Traveler art style. I remember being disgusted with those visuals when I first saw them in the promotional material for that game, and I think they've actually gotten worse with time. (They oblierated the art of the Live-a-Live remake, that's for effing sure.)