the dpad problem

[raveci]

How dare you disrespect Gunpei Yokoi like that.
You should be ashamed.

Shame level: Banned (Permanent)

 

[miguk]

I would rather if all the analog sticks were replaced with D-pads, myself.

They did that with the Virtual Boy and the Sega Game Gear Advance. Neither sold that well.

 

[newageretrohippie]

It is surprising to me how many bad d pads are made these days (especially ones that bottom out in the middle or dont activate consistently...)

like if you cant figure it out literally just 3D scan an OG NES or genesis dpad, i mean what is this? The 2000s?

 

[miguk]

It is surprising to me how many bad d pads are made these days (especially ones that bottom out in the middle or dont activate consistently...)

like if you cant figure it out literally just 3D scan an OG NES or genesis dpad, i mean what is this? The 2000s?

No, scan later Nintendo d-pads. Do not go with the thing that caused "Nintendo thumb" (blisters from playing too long). The difference is subtle, but the smoother edges of later ones make for much more comfortable gameplay.

But yes, a lot of d-pads suck as many companies are either ① sticking to legacy d-pads from the era when Nintendo still had a patent on their d-pad (Sony is particularly guilty of this) ② trying to market themselves as having figured out something they don't want you to know (newsflash: the 1st parties don't care). They could be doing other things to improve controllers (back triggers, extra face buttons, mini touchscreen hud, etc), but warping the d-pad is the easiest thing for lazy companies to do.

 

[newageretrohippie]

No, scan later Nintendo d-pads. Do not go with the thing that caused "Nintendo thumb" (blisters from playing too long). The difference is subtle, but the smoother edges of later ones make for much more comfortable gameplay.

But yes, a lot of d-pads suck as many companies are either ① sticking to legacy d-pads from the era when Nintendo still had a patent on their d-pad (Sony is particularly guilty of this) ② trying to market themselves as having figured out something they don't want you to know (newsflash: the 1st parties don't care). They could be doing other things to improve controllers (back triggers, extra face buttons, mini touchscreen hud, etc), but warping the d-pad is the easiest thing for lazy companies to do.

hmm never bothered me.. i guess the snes dpad had a nicer shape... but its more about the functionality... although i *do* have OG genesis controller that barely works at all now.

i feel like nes and snes controllers have worked great for decades.

 

[RanmyakuIchi]

I find the Sony dpad works shockingly well for Fighting Games, I prefer it to an arcade stick frankly.

 

[Dyne]

I've been a big fan of the Playstation Dpad pretty much since PS1.
The Dpad is the only thing I really don't like on the current Switch Pro controller.
8bit Do makes pretty good retro style Dpads in my opinion. Kind of like an updated SNES one.

 

[miguk]

I find the Sony dpad works shockingly well for Fighting Games, I prefer it to an arcade stick frankly.

I find the opposite. The lack of above-surface connections between directionals makes diagonals difficult to press. Simple hadokens would fail on me, let alone complex stuff like pretzels. And the PS1 controller was another N-thumb case. (Don't know how it is now, as I haven't been buying newer PS consoles, but the design looks similar enough that it still could be an issue.)

 

[kanesha]

yall sure do love your mushy dpads, this is why we can't have nice things T_T

 

[miguk]

yall sure do love your mushy dpads, this is why we can't have nice things T_T

You could suggest an alternative instead of just complaining. Joysticks were tried and were found to have their limits, with arcade games and console fighting games being the vast majority of what they are really good for (handhelds, not so much). Number pads are bad for anything that requires immediate action. Trackballs work for only a small amount of games (and arguably aren't the best even in those cases). Keyboards work for certain genres of PC game, but can be difficult to use or less ergonomic for others. Analog sticks work well for 3D games, but not for 2D games. Touchscreens lack tactile feedback and have false inputs. I don't know what you think would be a perfect replacement for them.

 

[RanmyakuIchi]

I find the opposite. The lack of above-surface connections between directionals makes diagonals difficult to press. Simple hadokens would fail on me, let alone complex stuff like pretzels. And the PS1 controller was another N-thumb case. (Don't know how it is now, as I haven't been buying newer PS consoles, but the design looks similar enough that it still could be an issue.)

Funny enough it's the exact opposite for me, I struggle on any dpad except Sony. Granted I won't rule out that growing up playing 3S, Marvel, and KOF XI on it didn't just give me Stockholm Syndrome lol. I remember people saying SF4 High Jump cancels were impossible on pad, which I found funny as an Ibuki main.

 

[kanesha]

You could suggest an alternative instead of just complaining

It's in the OP, that's what this thread is about.

Joysticks were tried and were found to have their limits

Lol, sure, most people haven't even clue what said thing in the OP is, let alone giving it a fair go, that is if they could even get there hands on something like that, it was never common and therefore more expensive when available.

arcade games and console fighting games being the vast majority of what they are really good for

How is something that's good for most mechanically demanding games not good for anything else? I don't get it. Please explain.

handhelds, not so much

Have you actually tried Neo Geo Pocket Color? I want to know what the glaring flaws are, for real.

Meanwhile a quote from the designer of the beloved NED dpad:
"The Nintendo way of adapting technology is not to look for the state of the art but to utilize mature technology that can be mass-produced cheaply." Dpads win cause silicon membrane is cheaper then mechanical switches, just like membrane keyboards won on PC market. Sad state of affairs.

 

[Tonberry]

I think the PS Vita dpad is pretty much perfect. It’s got just the right amount of both mushiness and clickiness.

Too mushy and it feels like you have to make an effort just to move the character. Too clicks and it disrupts immersion and feels like nothing but a menu button.

 

[kanesha]

PS Vita dpad

Ah, finally someone mentions a worthy contender, the illusive clicky dpad. I haven't had a chance to try one, but I looked underneath and found my good friend from handheld keyboard adventures, that carries the most badass button tech name in the universe - the metal dome. It is curious, it is promising, however can it be better than a micro-switch and a spring? That's tough, my hunch is that it can't, even if it matches accuracy it can't match ergonomics.

 

[miguk]

It's in the OP, that's what this thread is about.


Lol, sure, most people haven't even clue what said thing in the OP is, let alone giving it a fair go, that is if they could even get there hands on something like that, it was never common and therefore more expensive when available.


How is something that's good for most mechanically demanding games not good for anything else? I don't get it. Please explain.


Have you actually tried Neo Geo Pocket Color? I want to know what the glaring flaws are, for real.

Meanwhile a quote from the designer of the beloved NED dpad:
"The Nintendo way of adapting technology is not to look for the state of the art but to utilize mature technology that can be mass-produced cheaply." Dpads win cause silicon membrane is cheaper then mechanical switches, just like membrane keyboards won on PC market. Sad state of affairs.

Nope, never used the Neo-Geo pad; all my Neo-Geo experience was with full-sized joysticks. But it looks not much different from the thumbsticks found on handhelds, which are not perfect either. To me, they are pretty similar to analog sticks but with worse (or just good enough, depending on the case) tactile feedback. I wouldn't consider them a good replacement for d-pads; besides, they can live alongside them, as they usually do.

Fighting gamers are not a monolith. Some prefer joysticks, some prefer d-pads, others prefer all-button fight pads❉ (or keyboards, which is where the idea came from). There are even some tourneys that ban fight pads because their hardcore users are too good with them compared to the joystick players. And that works similar for other genres.
❉ Note: for anyone wondering what a fight pad is, the Razer Kitsune is a good example.

As for other genres, joysticks are simply not necessary, and they aren't as portable or comfortable for most people. That's understandable when you consider how they are typically used: sitting on a surface with both hands fully on top, rather than gripping the sides. Not everyone can spare a table or wants to put them in their lap. Standard controllers don't require that.

As for NGPC, it has too few face buttons, weaker graphics than the GBA or even WSC, not enough 3rd party support, no TV tuner, and no DVD playback. Can't comment on the thumbstick beyond what I already said.

Mechanical d-pads are possible, just not common. The Thrustmaster Eswap Pro controller has one.

 

[Ikagura]

Cross-shaped direction pad were a revolution.

These were almost needed for precise platforming.

 

[kanesha]

platforming

Which kind? 3D or the one that doesn't even need half of that cross? Guess we could have had a proper bar-shaped revolution, but the pesky christian cabal had to make it religious.

 

[RanmyakuIchi]

Which kind? 3D or the one that doesn't even need half of that cross? Guess we could have had a proper bar-shaped revolution, but the pesky christian cabal had to make it religious.

Reject dpad, embrace Divekick controller

 

[kanesha]

thumbsticks found on handhelds

I'm curious about these handhelds. Never heard of any others with 8 directional thumbstick with any sort of feedback. The closes alternative thing I've had is a little directional nub on a flight stick, the thing was real stiff, but still better IMO than a mushy dpad xD

all-button fight pads

Yeah, I know clicky joystick is only the second best, the first is the mighty keyboard, who would've thunk using more fingers makes it easier? Unfortunately not an option on a gamepad.

they are typically used: sitting on a surface with both hands fully on top, rather than gripping the sides.

Not the two examples presented in this thread though. That's the whole point.

As for NGPC, it has too few face buttons, weaker graphics than the GBA or even WSC, not enough 3rd party support, no TV tuner, and no DVD playback.

Not what I asked about, but thanks for the contribution, good to know it doesn't have DVD playback.

The Thrustmaster Eswap Pro

New challenger appears! OMG the dpad module alone cost almost as much as a whole ass 8bitdo Neo Geo pad xD I can't find any pictures of the insides, but if it's the *UT2004 annauncer voice* METAL DOMES, then it's definitely not worth it. If it's actual microswitches, then... still not worth it, but at least unique. Now my question is why don't they make a module for their modular controller with the Pocket Color's stick? Then I would at least envy people who can affort that thing.

 

[hazys]

I've never sprung for a D-pad when a stick was available, even on standard Sony controllers I would rather play fighting games with the stick. Partly because everyone seems to have forgotten how to make a comfortable D-pad. They're either solid cross-shaped chunks of plastic with high squishiness, or four up/down/left/right buttons disguised as a pad. I will say the Vita has a very nice one, but the Vita has a very nice everything.

 

[Yousef]

Rip Bobobo

 

[Ikagura]

Which kind? 3D or the one that doesn't even need half of that cross? Guess we could have had a proper bar-shaped revolution, but the pesky christian cabal had to make it religious.

The Atari 2600 stick is just not that good.

I'd still defend the SNES pad as one of the best ever made.

 

[kanesha]

The Atari 2600 stick is just not that good.

You can certainly make a bad stick: the base is too small for the size of the stick, still plenty of space for all sorts of switches, but cheapened out and went with metal domes (which as far as I know are worse the bigger they get), relies on rubber instead of a spring to center it (again not good for the size).

I'd still defend the SNES pad as one of the best ever made.

I feel the need to clearify in the context of the thread best what ever made. You mean best mushy dpad or best 8 directional control on a gamepad? Do you prefer it over all alternatives for games that require precise 8 directional input? And finally have you tried the Neo Geo pad (or handheld I'm even more curious about), and if yes what criticism do you have for it? Or if you haven't tried and just have hypothetical criticims can discuss that too, there has been some of that in this thread already, like the thumb fatigue.

 

[cjl8336]

Saturn dpad has been my perennial favorite

 

[ZombieFish]

Or nothing.