Do you FPGA?

[MasterEn]

Field programmable gate array, a type of computer that can mimic other hardware.

okay. sounds interesting.

 

[newageretrohippie]

what is FPGA?

Stands for "field programmable gate array". it is basically a matrix of maybe 10k or 100k logic units which are clocked in parallel (with clock speeds of maybe 100 megahertz) and can be arranged in whatever configuration you like using a programming language (usually verilog or vhdl, but there are others).

fpgas themselves are volatile (sort of like RAM) and they lose their configuration if you remove power. Sometimes this is exactly what you want, and it lends itself nicely to creating perfect recreations of 25+ year old computer systems, game consoles, arcade machines, etc. then you can switch between recreations on the fly.

...

FPGAs are also used in reprogrammable devices which require massively parrallel i/o (think "jumbotrons" or similar, purpose-built digital signage.)

FPGAs are also very useful if you need reprogrammable logic that requires very low latency (think professional audio effects/processing devices)

...

finally, they can be used to create prototypes for VLSI / ASIC ("very large scale integration" / "application specific integrated circuit" ) devices.

these can be clocked at very high (several gigahertz) speeds (think bitcoin miners) or can be produced very cheaply in massive quantities (think NES "system-on-a-chip" devices)

An ASIC is like a microprocessor or microcontroller. It is non-volatile but it cant be subsequently reprogrammed

hope that helps

 

[MasterEn]

Stands for "field programmable gate array". it is basically a matrix of maybe 10k or 100k logic units which are clocked in parallel (with clock speeds of maybe 100 megahertz) and can be arranged in whatever configuration you like using a programming language (usually verilog or vhdl, but there are others).

fpgas themselves are volatile (sort of like RAM) and they lose their configuration if you remove power. Sometimes this is exactly what you want, and it lends itself nicely to creating perfect recreations of 25+ year old computer systems, game consoles, arcade machines, etc. then you can switch between recreations on the fly.

...

they are also used for reprogrammable devices which require massively parrallel i/o (think "jumbotrons" or similar purpose built digital signage.)

they are also very useful if you need reprogrammable logic that requires very low latency (think professional audio effects/processing devices)

...

finally, they can be used to create prototypes for VLSI / ASIC (very large scale integration /application specific integrated circuit ) devices.

these can be clocked at very high (several gigahertz) speeds (think bitcoin miners) or can be mass produced very cheaply in massive quantities (think NES system-on-a-chip devices)

these are basically the same thing as a microprocessor or microcontroller and they are non-volatile but they cant be subsequently reprogrammed

hope that helps

nope. not in the slightest. i'm still learning about computer hardware and the inner workings. i only got my current laptop after learning that it had enough gigahertz to run dolphin so i could play pikmin. it seems like i can understand how powerful a computer is in comparison to a game console. i grew up with consoles and i got my first laptop when i was about 20. i thought FPGA was an emulation program of some sort. it sounds like from your description like some sort of crazy super computer that can be up or downgraded in an instant almost.

 

[newageretrohippie]

nope. not in the slightest. i'm still learning about computer hardware and the inner workings. i only got my current laptop after learning that it had enough gigahertz to run dolphin so i could play pikmin. it seems like i can understand how powerful a computer is in comparison to a game console. i grew up with consoles and i got my first laptop when i was about 20. i thought FPGA was an emulation program of some sort. it sounds like from your description like some sort of crazy super computer that can be up or downgraded in an instant almost.

Thats exactly what it is, but it is just a single microchip.

although, even though an fpga can do anything and everything on a single clock cycle, the clock speeds are much slower than most other modern hardware (but still faster than most older hardware).

the other limitation is that a current fpga cant have nearly as many transistors as a modern microprocessor or gpu.

it is becoming popular to marry a couple of cpu cores to an FPGA on a single die, so you get the best of both worlds (sort of)

for instance the popular "mister" DE10 nano has 2 ARM cores alongside 120k fpga logic units. that allows for a basic modern operating system to handle things like file management or network or video connectivity without wasting fpga logic units.

 

[MasterEn]

Thats exactly what it is, but it is just a single microchip.

although, even though an fpga can do anything and everything on a single clock cycle, the clock speeds are much slower than most other modern hardware (but still faster than most older hardware).

the other limitation is that a current fpga cant have nearly as many transistors as a modern microprocessor or gpu.

it is becoming popular to marry a couple of cpu cores to an FPGA on a single die, so you get the best of both worlds (sort of)

for instance the popular "mister" DE10 nano has 2 ARM cores alongside 120k fpga logic units. that allows for a basic modern operating system to handle things like file management or network or video connectivity without wasting fpga logic units.

give it some time, and the tech will improve vastly. i read about flash drives costing $40 for about 8gb back when they first came out. now you can get a3 pack at walmart for about $12-15.

 

[newageretrohippie]

give it some time, and the tech will improve vastly. i read about flash drives costing $40 for about 8gb back when they first came out. now you can get a3 pack at walmart for about $12-15.

I think it also will ultimately help that so many people are using these things to play video games. FPGA is an 80s baby, but it has only started to become a well known tech (outside of industry) in the past couple of years.

We could (and probably will) see much higher clock speeds and higher transistor counts, as more people see new ways to use these things.

they even have analog versions (FPAA -- field programable analog array). so, you can actually do the same thing and program (and reprogram) analog circuitry on a single chip.

...

A new chinese company, "Sipeed" has been making some very interesting designs. they have a board which can be connected by PCI express (so you can use it directly in your general purpose computer just like you would a GPU)

Sipeed also have a new one coming out this month (called Sipeed Tang Console) which can be used standalone or connected directly to a raspberry pi (and directly share memory) and should cost about $70.

if (when) that design becomes popular, it will certainly push the technology more and more thanks to the general enthusiasm of the maker-space crowd.

im stoked

 

[MasterEn]

I think it also will ultimately help that so many people are using these things to play video games. FPGA is an 80s baby, but it has only started to become a well known tech (outside of industry) in the past couple of years.

We could (and probably will) see much higher clock speeds and higher transistor counts, as more people see new ways to use these things.

they even have analog versions (FPAA -- field programable analog array). so, you can actually do the same thing and program (and reprogram) analog circuitry on a single chip.

...

A new chinese company, "Sipeed" has been making some very interesting designs. they have a board which can be connected by PCI express (so you can use it directly in your general purpose computer just like you would a GPU)

Sipeed also have a new one coming out this month (called Sipeed Tang Console) which can be used standalone or connected directly to a raspberry pi (and directly share memory) and should cost about $70.

if (when) that design becomes popular, it will certainly push the technology more and more thanks to the general enthusiasm of the maker-space crowd.

im stoked

that sounds pretty cool. getting the general public interested is usually the best path to success; that's why tv sets are so common place nowadays. they sold the product on being for children and families to enjoy back in the day.

 

[newageretrohippie]

that sounds pretty cool. getting the general public interested is usually the best path to success; that's why tv sets are so common place nowadays. they sold the product on being for children and families to enjoy back in the day.

this is exactly why i mention Sipeed/gowin all the time. AFAIK, they are the only major producers of FPGA dev boards which openly supports and encourages the "retro game" FPGA development community.

intel just tolerates it at best and amd's fpgas tend to be really high end these days

sipeed also promotes all sorts of maker space use cases, and they are all-in on open architecture (they use RISC V instead of ARM for instance)

this is the "sipeed tang console" i mentioned. it should be able to do anything (and more than) the analogue pocket can do (eventually)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1878055304434200723

 

[Jeanfranc]

Do you FPGA?

Nope, could you Mister owners try and sell me on this thing? I don't really get it honestly

 

[SkoomaCatJesus]

I deeply resent the strategy the industry is using to legitimize pilfering x86. I am very enthusiastic about FPGA technologies, but not at the cost of choice in general computing. The future is not Commodore 6502, and I absolutely will not willingly pay a tax to a British lord or sterling to the UK for their disgusting ways. I will settle for RISC if it means destroying the parasites that threaten to ruin my future. My life is a hard one, I will not willfully endure being shortchanged this one form of entertainment that makes my "ball and chain" bearable. I am excited for the MISTER and PI, but not the fact that others are using the platform as a vice to destroy general purpose computing or access to the art co-linked to it. I am especially resentful of the movements that Nintendo is making to secure extra-judicial power to manipulate open-source movements by declaring ownership of their thoughts and dreams via draconian abuses of property-rights-as-IP. It is increasingly becoming as ugly on the outside as they are on the inside. And the fact that they had the gall to symbolize that with a clock is very disturbing.

 

[SwordBreaker39]

I mostly software emulate. Why you ask.
1.First of FPGA consoles is hard to come by in Sweden like proper ones and not cheap bad ones.

2. Good FPGA ain´t cheap we talking 1200-1500 Kroner around 120-150bucks I can get a snes for 60 bucks or a nes for 50 or megadrive for 30.

3. I have a real PS1 and 2 and Snes and I use a regular Scart to HDMI converter yes it´s not good but im not paying 200-300 bucks for a Retro think or 600+ for a Framemeister or 140 bucks for a ossc.
I mean shit does upscalers cost more than my damn consoles and even half my damn rent.
If I can find one I would like to get a Tiny Sony Trinitron it would be nice but dear god a Sony Trinitron even small one costs 10 200 Swedish Kroner that 911 dollar.

So until I can find a cheap solution or I find a job that pay me enugh to bearly stay alive. I stick with software emulation 90% of the time and the other 10% I will use my console on with a cheap scart to hdmi.

Shit being a retro gamer that plays on real hardware today means you need to be rich even flash carts cost like an arm or 2. And if you wanna buy the real games as well you need to be Richy Rich.

 

[SkoomaCatJesus]

2. Good FPGA ain´t cheap we talking 1200-1500 Kroner around 120-150bucks I can get a snes for 60 bucks or a nes for 50 or megadrive for 30.

Shit being a retro gamer that plays on real hardware today means you need to be rich even flash carts cost like an arm or 2. And if you wanna buy the real games as well you need to be Richy Rich.

I, too, software emulate. I despise the thought of choices being violated by those with dishonest financial intentions. People resent 'tiers' of service, but I would rather have 'tiers' than a monopoly of so called 'bests.'

 

[newageretrohippie]

I deeply resent the strategy the industry is using to legitimize pilfering x86. I am very enthusiastic about FPGA technologies, but not at the cost of choice in general computing. The future is not Commodore 6502, and I absolutely will not willingly pay a tax to a British

how can fpga cost choice in general computing? it just adds more choice (a lot more choice). Especially if you learn to program one...

x86 isnt going anywhere. It would be physically impossible to replace a modern x86 with an fpga, i think.

as for RISC V, i dont think that will put a huge dent in either the x86 or the arm markets... it is just nice to have a 3rd option for a modern microprocessor... especially one that is completely open architecture. Such a thing is unprecedented!

Post automatically merged: Jan 18, 2025

I mostly software emulate. Why you ask.
1.First of FPGA consoles is hard to come by in Sweden like proper ones and not cheap bad ones.

2. Good FPGA ain´t cheap we talking 1200-1500 Kroner around 120-150bucks I can get a snes for 60 bucks or a nes for 50 or megadrive for 30.

man, in the USA the current list price for DE10 nano is $220-$230 from a reputable supplier house. (the scalper market will milk fools for $300 to $600)

So, if you can get one in sweden for 120, its a pretty good investment considering how many cores are available. (you would have to spend hundreds of thousands $$$ to acquire all that OG hardware, not to mention software)

...
3+ years ago intel sold the DE10 nano board directly on amazon for $120 in the US. That was the price for several years and it was considered to be quite a bargain, in the beginning (about 10 years ago.)

The reason Sorge choose the DE10 nano platform for MiSTer was the incredible value. At that time, it would have cost maybe $400 to manufacture your own DE10 nano, and Terasic/intel were selling them at a loss to promote the Cyclone V platform to college students.

Now, of course, you can manufacture a DE10 Nano for under a hundred dollars even in low quantities (Taki Udon proved this with "Mister Pi" which was 6000 units produced in a two run deal).

its really a FOMO shame that the market isnt saturated with these things by now.

 

[BunnyLain]

I got into it when the DE10 Nano was about £110 and sworn by it since. My mister build is my go to way to play retro games. It's been less expensive and less of a hassle than running original hardware, but there's a charm of putting a cart in that's missing, especially with the whole switch on, boot game. It's just one extra step that reminds me I'm living in the modern day of digital file games.

But it is nice to use the original controllers! Getting to experience games with all the quirks that a console would have had without the emulation. It's also crazy how far it's all come, never expected to be playing N64 or Saturn on it, it's actually better than any emulator out there in that regard.

I'll need to check out the tang at some point too. But really, end of the day, emulation is actually really decent and there's no end of ways to play old games now days. So as much as I like FPGA, that's just the purest in me telling myself that Sin and Punishment feels just as good as it did on original hardware.

 

[newageretrohippie]

I got into it when the DE10 Nano was about £110 and sworn by it since. My mister build is my go to way to play retro games. It's been less expensive and less of a hassle than running original hardware, but there's a charm of putting a cart in that's missing, especially with the whole switch on, boot game. It's just one extra step that reminds me I'm living in the modern day of digital file games.

But it is nice to use the original controllers! Getting to experience games with all the quirks that a console would have had without the emulation. It's also crazy how far it's all come, never expected to be playing N64 or Saturn on it, it's actually better than any emulator out there in that regard.

I'll need to check out the tang at some point too. But really, end of the day, emulation is actually really decent and there's no end of ways to play old games now days. So as much as I like FPGA, that's just the purest in me telling myself that Sin and Punishment feels just as good as it did on original hardware.

i yeah i got into de10 back then, but i had all 3 of mine stolen right b4 the price hike and the artificial scarcity kicked in. Fortunately, my brother has one tho.

the new tang console 138k ($99) is actually slightly more powerful. It just doesnt have nearly the cores yet. (but none of the fomo)

I'm planning to get into the core porting game in the next week or so. ...been practicing my verilog.

 

[Fenir]

This one would be nice (SNES-CD):

 

[PhrawzT]

I have the Analogue Super NT which is by far the best way to play SNES games on a modern TV. Looks better than my original console from 1996 paired with the HD Retrovision cable on the same TV. I have over 20 cartridges from when I was a kid and some Super Famicom ones and they all play great and look amazing. My only complaint is the lack of save states on the NT, but definitely worth the money.

I also have the Analogue Pocket with is also amazing and can play tons of handhelds and old consoles. The adapters are not great, but I can play my Game Gear games on it, but it is very finicky and takes a few tries to get them working. I wish I could get my hands on the TG-16 adapter without having to by the set.

 

[Egg (McMuffin) Man]

I have a MiSTer. I originally bought it for arcade games (I cannot exaggerate how much I hate using MAME), but eventually I ended up putting it into a 3D printed wedge PC case and these days I mostly use it to fumble around on BBS through the C64 core. Of course I still use it for arcade games though.

I also have an Analogue Pocket (I LOVE IT), and I picked up Funny Playing's FPGA GBC to use with a modded Game Boy Camera because it was too heavy to use with the Analogue Pocket.

While emulation is great for more powerful consoles from 6th gen and up

FPGA is emulation, just a different type.

i also highly recommend the Sipeed Tang nano 20k

I'm very interested in the new device that Sipeed is releasing soon! The higher end version appears to be a slight upgrade compared to the MiSTer, and they showed off the ability to connect GBA cartridges.

I love my MiSTer but I find it disappointing that there is no way to read from cartridges. As I said earlier I put my MiSTer into a wedge PC case, and I would really like to make it more aesthetically resemble some of my favorite retro PC's by adding cartridge slots. I'm keeping an eye on Sipeed's new tang device because if it turns out to have good support than I'll absolutely buy one and make a new case for it to turn it into my dream retro PC. I already contacted Sipeed and they sent me the 3d model so that I can make a new case for it. I'm excited!

The various cores for sipeed tang are kind of scattered all over github randomly. I'm not sure if there is a central hub or repository, but i've been collecting bookmarks for every project i can find.

Would you be willing to share those links within the community? It would be a major benefit to anyone interested in the tang if there were a central location to check for all of the available cores. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, even just a bunch of links in a GitHub readme is enough.

 

[fake-kun]

I've come to resent FPGA thanks to obnoxious people who bash emulators to prop it up.

 

[Leon]

I have a MiSTer. I originally bought it for arcade games (I cannot exaggerate how much I hate using MAME), but eventually I ended up putting it into a 3D printed wedge PC case and these days I mostly use it to fumble around on BBS through the C64 core. Of course I still use it for arcade games though.

I also have an Analogue Pocket (I LOVE IT), and I picked up Funny Playing's FPGA GBC to use with a modded Game Boy Camera because it was too heavy to use with the Analogue Pocket.



FPGA is emulation, just a different type.

I'm very interested in the new device that Sipeed is releasing soon! The higher end version appears to be a slight upgrade compared to the MiSTer, and they showed off the ability to connect GBA cartridges.

I love my MiSTer but I find it disappointing that there is no way to read from cartridges. As I said earlier I put my MiSTer into a wedge PC case, and I would really like to make it more aesthetically resemble some of my favorite retro PC's by adding cartridge slots. I'm keeping an eye on Sipeed's new tang device because if it turns out to have good support than I'll absolutely buy one and make a new case for it to turn it into my dream retro PC. I already contacted Sipeed and they sent me the 3d model so that I can make a new case for it. I'm excited!

Would you be willing to share those links within the community? It would be a major benefit to anyone interested in the tang if there were a central location to check for all of the available cores. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, even just a bunch of links in a GitHub readme is enough.

I mean it's loosely emulation, it's as close to original hardware as you'll get in the modern day basically, but yes it's still emulation.

I've come to resent FPGA thanks to obnoxious people who bash emulators to prop it up.

I won't lie, this has bothered me as well, but i haven't gotten that far yet.

 

[BunnyLain]

I've come to resent FPGA thanks to obnoxious people who bash emulators to prop it up.

I mean, I don't totally blame people for being jerks about it, FPGA costs a fair bit more than normal emulation does. They both have their pros and cons, as much as I like FPGA, it really is overkill for things like the GBC, while at the same time not being as good as duck station which is just better than hardware.

I think now days people are just crazy spoiled for ways to play games. Me? I'm just trying to find a way to replicate my childhood, being able to beat the damn minecart levels in DKC without any input lag... or you know... just getting my snes out of the attic...