Do you FPGA?

[Mini_Man.XW]

I'm FPGA curious, but it's hasn't been within my budget until recently. It's good to see competition in such a niche market popping up.

 

[HextarVigar]

Only in private. Jesus Christ, man, what's wrong with you?!

 

[newageretrohippie]

I'm FPGA curious, but it's hasn't been within my budget until recently. It's good to see competition in such a niche market popping up.

de-10 nano is still prolly the best place to start if you want something right now. Just make sure to get it from a reputable electronics supplier like digikey or mouser. NEVER pay more than about $230-240 for one under any circumstance, or you are just lining a scalper's pocket. If you have a student id, i think you might still be able to get a few bucks off (maybe $30 or $40?)

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/terasic-inc/P0496/6817231

https://mou.sr/3AeQ25s

you'll also need a usb hub, a micro usb adapter (for the hub), a keyboard, a controller, an SD card (the nano comes with an 8 GB card, but... ya know),

and you will prolly want a 128 MB SDRAM stick for it (maybe $40). oh yeah, and a heat sink isn't a bad idea. you can mount it with special double sided tape.

If you don't have an SDRAM stick, you can't play most stuff, but TG16(CD), Genesis, GBA, 486 PC, and a couple of other things will still work.

--
The Taki Udon PSone thing will be more bang for your buck, but it's still a few months out.

SuperStationᵒⁿᵉ

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--
Sipeed Tang Console is a great value hardware wise, but it still needs a LOT of development to catch up to MiSTer.

The $100 Tang Console 138k is potentially more powerful than the DE10-nano (which is 120k)... So, technically you are getting, like, 36,000 extra transistors for, lilke negative $130... It's almost like THEY are paying YOU! and giving you transistors!

WHAT A GOOD DEAL!!!

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sipeed.com

 

[Graw]

Honestly, it seems like snake oil to me

This. The idea that emulating hardware at a slightly lower level on slower hardware is somehow going to make a significant or even noticable difference over a slightly higher level of abstraction on much faster hardware is absurd.

I would be willing to bet the choice of controller makes a bigger difference than FPGA vs software emulation.

 

[BunnyLain]

This. The idea that emulating hardware at a slightly lower level on slower hardware is somehow going to make a significant or even noticable difference over a slightly higher level of abstraction on much faster hardware is absurd.

I would be willing to bet the choice of controller makes a bigger difference than FPGA vs software emulation.

Being able to use original hardware controllers over the SNAC port helps!
But no I really do think the input lag on some emulators makes games like DKC unplayable, or I might just be getting slow. Either way you can't deny it's a really cool bit of kit and does way more in one package than mame and all these other emulators together in one device.

With a lot of people never really growing up on these older consoles and only knowing how things play through emulators, I can see why people would dismiss it. This is the closest to original hardware we still have really, unless you go out and get the old consoles and give them some TLC to work again.

 

[newageretrohippie]

Being able to use original hardware controllers over the SNAC port helps!
But no I really do think the input lag on some emulators makes games like DKC unplayable, or I might just be getting slow. Either way you can't deny it's a really cool bit of kit and does way more in one package than mame and all these other emulators together in one device.

With a lot of people never really growing up on these older consoles and only knowing how things play through emulators, I can see why people would dismiss it. This is the closest to original hardware we still have really, unless you go out and get the old consoles and give them some TLC to work again.

yeah some games are unplayable on emulators (think of Mike Tyson's Punchout or Sonic Spinball or many light gun games). I also definitely notice a huge difference even when i moved a mister from a flatscreen to a CRT.

Some people are gonna be more sensitive to this than others. It's more than just input latency, too. jitter or aperture errors on the response to inputs can be even worse.

Also, it just depends a lot on the emulator and the computer its running on and the display its connected to, etc.

I really can't tell any difference tho, between mister on a CRT and my genesis on the same CRT (with SCART cable)... except the left channel audio on the genesis has a blown capacitor. heh... gotta fix that.

 

[Graw]

Being able to use original hardware controllers over the SNAC port helps!
But no I really do think the input lag on some emulators makes games like DKC unplayable, or I might just be getting slow.

I just bolded the important part there. Some emulators are garbage and using them is kind of a waste of time.

Either way you can't deny it's a really cool bit of kit and does way more in one package than mame and all these other emulators together in one device.

I mean I guess it's cool but at the same time not really. It's functionally no different than emulation. You're just emulating the chip at a lower level. Instead of implementing your 6502 processor or whatever in C code that gets executed on an x86 or ARM processor, you write your 6502 processor in verilog and the field gates act like a 6502 or whatever processor.

With a lot of people never really growing up on these older consoles and only knowing how things play through emulators, I can see why people would dismiss it. This is the closest to original hardware we still have really, unless you go out and get the old consoles and give them some TLC to work again.

As someone who grew up with the original hardware for most of these older systems I can't understand why people would want that. You know what sucked? Playing these games on the original hardware. As soon as I learned emulation existed the nes and snes got packed away and didn't come out again. Little kid me would have been stoked as hell at the idea of just having literally all the video games on a device that I carry around with me daily as it is. Actually, adult me is pretty stoked my phone can play literally all the games that existed when I was young.

Especially when you start getting into the 3d systems. I'm sorry but playing n64 through ps2 games in their original resolution on a CRT monitor is objectively worse than upscaling them and choosing to play them like that is making things worse for yourself for no real benefit. It's not like they wouldn't have made those games higher resolution if they could.

 

[newageretrohippie]

I just bolded the important part there. Some emulators are garbage and using them is kind of a waste of time.

I mean I guess it's cool but at the same time not really. It's functionally no different than emulation. You're just emulating the chip at a lower level. Instead of implementing your 6502 processor or whatever in C code that gets executed on an x86 or ARM processor, you write your 6502 processor in verilog and the field gates act like a 6502 or whatever processor.

I'd say FPGA is functionally much closer to hardware than it is to an emulator... both in execution and implementation. In fact many of the custom chips that were used in 90s consoles were PROBABLY designed on an FPGA... (how else would they design them?).

An emulator is (usually) running on a a modern OS which is doing a million other things (unless you reeeally strip it down or build/install a custom gaming/emulation OS from the ground up). On an FPGA, the OS is just there to serve up files to the hardware and set the controls and AV options. It literally doesn't do anything else.

As for me, I'm the kind of person who is easily distracted; so, i like to use something that is purpose built for gaming to play games. That's why i like consoles and that's one reason i like FPGAs. you just pop it on and you are playing.

I'd say if you are having fun playing on emulators, then by all means, play on emulators! I like some emulators these days. Mednafen is awesome. I like Batocera for an emulation OS (same reasons i mentioned, it's basically plug and play). PS2 emulation has finally caught up these days... and really if you are lucky enough not to have had all 3 of your Phat 60 PS3s stolen, you are right, it's a great way to play many PS2 games!

As long as you're having fun, that's what it's all about, says I!

 

[Graw]

I'd say FPGA is functionally much closer to hardware than it is to an emulator... both in execution and implementation

But it's not. Functionally it's the same.

An emulator is (usually) running on a a modern OS which is doing a million other things (unless you reeeally strip it down or build/install a custom gaming/emulation OS from the ground up). On an FPGA, the OS is just there to serve up files to the hardware and set the controls and AV options. It literally doesn't do anything else.

To use the nes as an example
CPU 8-bit, 1.66 Mhz
Memory 2 Kb RAM - Video RAM 2 Kb
I could emulate several instances of the nes system and any modern computer would barely even notice the resource usage. Like these systems are significantly less resource intensive than a modern computer by a massive almost unintelligible factor. Like thousands of times less resource intensive. Modern emulators for most of the popular 8 and 16 bit systems have reached a point of being mostly cycle accurate.

If this were 20 years ago I'd agree with what you say but things have come a long way over that time period.

that were used in 90s consoles were PROBABLY designed on an FPGA... (how else would they design them?).

Yes because that is one of the actual intended purposes of FPGA chips, prototyping and design.

As for me, I'm the kind of person who is easily distracted; so, i like to use something that is purpose built for gaming to play games. That's why i like consoles and that's one reason i like FPGAs. you just pop it on and you are playing.

This is a valid point and I can't argue with that and honestly, I would think an FPGA based dedicated device would be significantly better than most of the cheap, shitty dedicated emulation devices out there.

I think those things are part of the problem. People play retro games on those things and think emulation sucks but it's those shitty underpowered devices that suck.

As long as you're having fun, that's what it's all about, says I!

Hard agree right there. I wasn't intending to come in and shit on everyone's love of FPGA devices, i'm just fairly skeptical that they offer a significant difference. It just reminds me of the people who think they can tell a difference in audio between FLAC files and WAV files and stuff like that. I mean sure, if it makes you happier to store massive files, go for it but I think there comes a point of diminishing returns as far as cost vs perceived quality.

But if people enjoy it why not?

 

[newageretrohippie]

Yes because that is one of the actual intended purposes of FPGA chips, prototyping and design.

that's another reason i like them too. when i first started messing around with mister, it's because i was thinking it would be fun to design some newage retro (heh) hardware.... so far i *haven't* done that, because ever time i pick up an fpga and plug it in, i just start playing games. (that's a reason, not an excuse :D)

Like something with hardware sprites and a graphics mode with no framebuffer, but maybe with a hardware based particle sprite system and some other features that would be cool but never really existed before...

This is a valid point and I can't argue with that and honestly, I would think an FPGA based dedicated device would be significantly better than most of the cheap, shitty dedicated emulation devices out there.

I think those things are part of the problem. People play retro games on those things and think emulation sucks but it's those shitty underpowered devices that suck.

yeah, those things have come a long way... like i used to buy a few of them here and there, but so many of them were trash. there are some decent ones these days, but you either have to shell out for an Odin (at that point, just get a steam deck or an Ally), or deal with the dodgy quality control of Anbernic...

I really liked my Anbernic Arc D... but then it died... so i flipped a bezos on it (that is i bought a new one on amazon and sent back the old one as the new one... don't tell anybody)... but then i just never got into playing the replacement... (and the SD cards that came with it have already stopped working).

Hard agree right there. I wasn't intending to come in and shit on everyone's love of FPGA devices, i'm just fairly skeptical that they offer a significant difference. It just reminds me of the people who think they can tell a difference in audio between FLAC files and WAV files and stuff like that. I mean sure, if it makes you happier to store massive files, go for it

I said "LOL" out loud at this!

but I think there comes a point of diminishing returns as far as cost vs perceived quality.

well, that's the thing, for several years, de-10 nano was like $120 shipped with Amazon prime. At that price (especially 5-10 years ago) it was a pretty good value, and it blew away most everything else at that price point.

but in the last couple years intel jacked up the price and made it less available online, so then the fomo scalpers jacked up the price even more. There is no way the list price should be $230, (when a small time indie production run was only $95 for slightly UPgraded design)... and then you see people charging $300+ just because most folks don't know about legit electronics suppliers... now that's just lame, and it's bad for the scene... again, you are prolly better off getting a steam deck or a little minisforum box or something like that.

But if people enjoy it why not?

I know I certainly enjoy it!

 

[Graw]

that's another reason i like them too. when i first started messing around with mister, it's because i was thinking it would be fun to design some newage retro (heh) hardware.... so far i *haven't* done that, because ever time i pick up an fpga and plug it in, i just start playing games. (that's a reason, not an excuse :D)

That seems like a hard way to do it unless you have hardware engineering experience. I have actually done that but I wrote it in D. I was interested in learning 6502 assembly to try and get into romhacking but I found it annoying so I thought it would be fun to design my own 16-bit virtual processor with its own set of Opcodes and assembly language.

It was actually a lot of fun to make. I got to the point where I wanted to design a 'PPU' for it so I could draw stuff to the screen but at the time graphics libraries were somewhat lacking for D so I ended up moving onto something else but it was at a state where I could write a program, the assembler would assemble it and the 'CPU' could read the code and execute the instructions. I can't remember exactly but It had something like 16 registers and could access up to 16MB of memory or something with some of the address space reserved for 'device' mapping.

yeah, those things have come a long way... like i used to buy a few of them here and there, but so many of them were trash. there are some decent ones these days, but you either have to shell out for an Odin (at that point, just get a steam deck or an Ally), or deal with the dodgy quality control of Anbernic...

I really liked my Anbernic Arc D... but then it died... so i flipped a bezos on it (that is i bought a new one on amazon and sent back the old one as the new one... don't tell anybody)... but then i just never got into playing the replacement... (and the SD cards that came with it have already stopped working).

My problem with all those kinds of devices is that they're just android devices with custom software on them. It just never made sense for me to buy something like that when I already have an android device I have with me constantly.

but in the last couple years intel jacked up the price and made it less available online, so then the fomo scalpers jacked up the price even more. There is no way the list price should be $230, (when a small time indie production run was only $95 for slightly UPgraded design)... and then you see people charging $300+ just because most folks don't know about legit electronics suppliers... now that's just lame, and it's bad for the scene... again, you are prolly better off getting a steam deck or a little minisforum box or something like that

I mean. You're not really the kind of person I have some concerns about with these things. You know what you like and what you want. You understand what they are and are realistic about them. It's more people who don't really understand thinking they need to buy something like that just to enjoy old games 'the way they're supposed to be' or whatever and needlessly shelling out money for something they don't really need to just because they think it's the only real way to play those games.

 

[ShanaFlameHaze]

I always prefer emulating. Even though I have a PSP, I prefer emulating it.


All the extras that emulation offers - enhanced resolution, HD textures packs, the ability to pause the game anytime, save states, play it on different devices, etc. are just so useful to me.

I would trade a bit of accuracy for these comforts any day.

 

[Jeanfranc]

yeah some games are unplayable on emulators (think of Mike Tyson's Punchout or Sonic Spinball or many light gun games). I also definitely notice a huge difference even when i moved a mister from a flatscreen to a CRT.

Some people are gonna be more sensitive to this than others. It's more than just input latency, too. jitter or aperture errors on the response to inputs can be even worse.

I too am very sensitive to lag, that's why I love VRR, frame limiters and all those fancy latency settings in Retroarch (mainly run-ahead).

Especially when you start getting into the 3d systems. I'm sorry but playing n64 through ps2 games in their original resolution on a CRT monitor is objectively worse than upscaling them and choosing to play them like that is making things worse for yourself for no real benefit. It's not like they wouldn't have made those games higher resolution if they could.

It's the opposite for me, I think a crt benefits old 3d games way more than 2d ones, it hides all those nasty imperfections and makes the pictures look more that it actually is. Upscaling is good but does cause issues like seams on textures and all the 2d pixelated elements look really blurry.

Besides, It's not like you need Mister to use one, just Switchres with Retroarch

 

[Graw]

It's the opposite for me, I think a crt benefits old 3d games way more than 2d ones,

I will agree it does if you play on original hardware. I still remember plugging my n64 into an early model flatscreen and just being confused as to why it looked so godawfully shitty.

 

[_oBSOLEte_]

Preemptive frames on Retroarch are certainly a great feature for those demanding arcade games. But realistically speaking, the vast majority of people wont feel the difference between 5 ms and 10 ms. Even with high accuracy VR rythm games where frametime is on this order of magnitude, having one frame of retroprojected lag here and there, most people couldnt tell.

I think FPGAs are a great concept but I feel there's a clash with the open source / DIY community and retrogamers. It isn't niche anymore and like the handheld market, it seems everyone wants its piece of the pie so I dont think they are good value now.

 

[Nidstang]

I recently preordered the Analogue 3D (N64 FPGA) for my brother. I am planning to get the Super Station (PS1 MisterCore FPGA console) when I get a little more money.

I'm all for FPGA. Still maintains that physical feel. Has some benefits of emulation. And it's fresh hardware with some longevity, considering older hardware is starting to break down.

 

[nattybohman]

Mister seems cool, but it also sounds like a bit of a pain to set up. That's my main reason for not looking into it more.
I have way too many fun projects already in my backlog. Also, I have so many ways to play older games now that it disincentivizes me a bit.

 

[Yousef]

If a drive contains both entire ps1 and ps2 libraries, sure. Would be pretty massive though.

 

[newageretrohippie]

It is actually pretty easy to set up. If you are familiar with a raspberry pi setup it is similar to that but maybe even easier.

Just download the mister image and use something like balena etcher to flash it to micro sd. It will expand automatically to fit your sd card. It also allows you to copy files directly to the file system. It just shows up as fat32 on a computer.

the only thing you really have to do is run the "update all" script (on your computer) which will download all of the latest release cores to your card. Then you copy your games and any firmware you might need (make sure to name the firmware correctly)

thats pretty much it. Just make sure to have a keyboard plugged in for first time setup, but once you configure a controller, it will remember your setup for that specific controller

 

[NotGodlike]

For hardware accuracy it's a really neat device to set up, though I see it more and more being discussed by the retro communities who collect old consoles and want a more "streamlined" access to their library without having to pile up the desk with all old electronic stuff.
For those who don't care about accuracy and hardware, emulator is cost-effective and easier to set up than FPGA

 

[BunnyLain]

Idk if its that much easier.
If you wanted a console to play retro games on, a mister FPGA is really out the box. Almost less set up than setting up emulators on a raspberry pi.

Honestly, I like this whole FPGA switch a lot. but yea, if you have a computer and want to play old games, emulation is the way to go.