"Turn based is outdated"

[Yousef]

As I've been replaying FF10 the past week I'm still so wowed with the CTB system it uses. It just feels so insanely tight, and it's really fun to be able to manipulate the turn order so much.

Yeahhhh!!! The CTB is a huge part why I plan to replay X, it’s such a wonderful little game.

 

[Yousef]

Yeah, that's my main reasoning. Also the story got really wacky in KH2. Roxas just sucks arse and Sora got really weird. Sometimes simplicity is an advantage.

You’d be surprised just how common of take this is, all parts of it, so I’ll respond to each.

Also the story got really wacky in KH2.

This is the huge division point in KH story discourse as a whole. It’s basically one of those things where just because an explanation exists, does not make it a good one. From my experience as a longtime insider of the fandom, KH fans seem incredibly hung up about the fact that an explanation exists at all, but rarely, and I do mean rarely address the fact you need to play an (in my opinion of course) incredibly mediocre game to “get” the story of KH2. This argument also tends to completely disregard writing quality. A narrative connection existing doesn’t absolve it of criticism, nor does it protect it from the fact that the characters might be annoying which leads me to….

Roxas just sucks arse

I’ve a similar complaint here but from a different angle. I personally don’t find the characters poorly written in the sense theyre annoying or what have you, but that they’re just really, really lackluster and are not expanded upon at all. It’s cookie cutter writing at its finest.

Now the time to somewhat tie this back into the topic at hand, because turn based games tend to actually have more time to expand on the plot. I actually noticed this in Yakuza 7 by the by, even if I wasn’t too wow’d by the story. Turn based RPGs just have more time to develop their cast and I ultimately see that as a win.

and Sora got really weird.

He did. More than thrice. KH1, KH2, KHDDD, KHRecoded and KH3 sora all talk like five different people despite literally the entire series being managed by Nomura. Simply how.

Sometimes simplicity is an advantage.

At the risk of going “full KH hater mode”, I’d actually have to make the argument that KH1 (the game most fans dub as simple) is only simple by comparison. If KH1 existed in a vacuum, the story would still be really, really bizarre. It’d actually be worse in a vacuum because it took until the “final mix” rerelease for them to actually elaborate on things “Xehanort/Ansem” did.
I’ll stop the KH talk now.

 

[Kremiso]

i really hope for new titles in future, turn based are an insta buy for me;
i would like more for sure, it's the only genre that reach to make me sit down and play the same game for months :)

i also liked a lot Octopath Traveler, and Battle Chasers : Nightwar on PC

 

[Sir Auriel of Lionel]

I haven't tried the new romancing saga 2 remake yet but does it use the shared BP pool system from SSG and Emerald Beyond? I like the timeline system, it's a good visual aid for the combo system, but I prefer the individual BP pools of the earlier SaGa games. I think Romancing SaGa Minstrel Song has my favourite combat system out of the SaGa games. You can tell they took a lot of ideas from Minstrel Song for SSG and Emerald Beyond's combat system but with Minstrel Song you have a lot more room to experiment and try different things. Minstrel Song seems to use similar mechanics to the timeline system behind the scenes. Different skills and formations do affect the turn order and your combo chances, you just don't have a visual guide with the information.

No it maintains the original Rom SaGa 2's BP system (each character has their own) and tech learning, and Spells are learned after battle if the element is used often (no charging up your spells to evolve them or learn new ones). They added a timeline above to see battle order and untied attacks are there but now require you to fill it up like an overdrive bar from Emerald. Battle formation tactics are the same, as well as fleshing out the Class and tied Abilities like Emerald did with clarity and actually working in battle. Yeah Minstrel Song will always be my favorite even if it's obvious there was still a lot left on the cutting room floor there was the beautiful full customization with characters (even if they make crap builds) that I haven't seen repeated yet. If there is combo and fulcrums in this title I've yet to trigger it but I believe it's only a Minstrel Song thing atm and I'm disappointed because they were my favorite.

 

[Patches]

I like Resonant Arc too! I have to watch them at 1.25x speed though.

Yeah turn-based is not, and will never be, outdated.
I actually prefer turn-based rpgs to action rpgs (what happened to you, Final Fantasy??)

I love turn based they need to put Nomura as lead on KH and art for FF I've not been enjoying what chef is cooking. Also would like to see them open up more to Xbox I bought most of square enix's games on xbox shop (pirates remorse while having funds I once didn't have.) Feels like a knife in the back for every new release that doesn't come and I have no plans to ever buy a sony again.

 

[GardeniaSky]

Turn-based combat better not die. I fucking love it.

 

[Yousef]

Turn-based combat better not die. I fucking love it.

I recently saw bravely default is getting a remaster so I think square is still investing in it methinks

 

[ThatOneLum]

I recently saw bravely default is getting a remaster so I think square is still investing in it methinks

I like that, but I'd like to see them bring back CTB for a main-line FF game again to be honest. I can only play 200+ hours of Final Fantasy X over and over again so many times


I think the problem is that a mainline FF game these days takes so much longer to produce, so they always wanna go with the literal most-popular gameplay style.

 

[Yousef]

I like that, but I'd like to see them bring back CTB for a main-line FF game again to be honest. I can only play 200+ hours of Final Fantasy X over and over again so many times


I think the problem is that a mainline FF game these days takes so much longer to produce, so they always wanna go with the literal most-popular gameplay style.

Yeah kind of a shame CTB was just for one game. The closest I’ve seen it being brought back is in Megaman Command Mission (which isn’t a squaresoft game but Y’know)

 

[Tonberry]

Yeah kind of a shame CTB was just for one game. The closest I’ve seen it being brought back is in Megaman Command Mission (which isn’t a squaresoft game but Y’know)

They also ripped it off in that ’Lord of the Rings: The Third Age’ game which is surprisingly decent.
It even works sort of well, until the orcs roll a million good turns in a row and delete two hours of progress.

 

[Graw]

No it maintains the original Rom SaGa 2's BP system (each character has their own) and tech learning, and Spells are learned after battle if the element is used often (no charging up your spells to evolve them or learn new ones). They added a timeline above to see battle order and untied attacks are there but now require you to fill it up like an overdrive bar from Emerald. Battle formation tactics are the same, as well as fleshing out the Class and tied Abilities like Emerald did with clarity and actually working in battle.

That actually sounds pretty interesting like they slapped on some of the new stuff onto the old school Romancing SaGa/SaGa frontier style system.

Yeah Minstrel Song will always be my favorite even if it's obvious there was still a lot left on the cutting room floor there was the beautiful full customization with characters (even if they make crap builds) that I haven't seen repeated yet. If there is combo and fulcrums in this title I've yet to trigger it but I believe it's only a Minstrel Song thing atm and I'm disappointed because they were my favorite.

I'd love to see them go back and revisit another Minstrel Song style game with the event rank system and the rich party building system. I played Minstrel Song before the other SaGa games so it kind if spoiled me. All the other ones feel a bit lacking by comparison.

 

[Sir Auriel of Lionel]

I'd love to see them go back and revisit another Minstrel Song style game with the event rank system and the rich party building system. I played Minstrel Song before the other SaGa games so it kind if spoiled me. All the other ones feel a bit lacking by comparison.

Same dude, I got spoiled with the enemy design and diversity that I think it was the fewest palate swaps to date. Unlimited SaGa nearly killed my heart after trying to play after that masterpiece.

 

[ThatOneLum]

They also ripped it off in that ’Lord of the Rings: The Third Age’ game which is surprisingly decent.
It even works sort of well, until the orcs roll a million good turns in a row and delete two hours of progress.

I legit love The Third Age, mostly because it's just LOTR FFX. Though it's that one PS2 game I really enjoy, but never seem to finish.

I mostly just keep restarting it from the beginning, so I can at least attest that the first few hours are enjoyable.

 

[NOTthatHARD]

Yes, turn based combat is dead and the reason for that is that developers just don't have the talent or desire to make something GREAT anymore. the most prominent turn based RPGs in the last decade have all been shitty copies of FF7 (a lot of customization options but end up feeling empty) or FF9 (super rigid characters with almost zero customization options).
All you have to do is look at classic games like: Chrono Cross, The Legend of Dragoon, Valkyrie Profile lenneth, Valkyrie Profile 2 Silmeria, Valkyrie Profile: Covenant of the Plume, Live A Live, Super Mario RPG, Legend Of Legaia, FF5, FF 6, FF7, FF 12, compare these games to modern RPG slop and you will see what I mean.

 

[Tonberry]

I legit love The Third Age, mostly because it's just LOTR FFX. Though it's that one PS2 game I really enjoy, but never seem to finish.

I mostly just keep restarting it from the beginning, so I can at least attest that the first few hours are enjoyable.

Tbh, it’s a really frontloaded game as far as polish goes. Everything up until and including Moria is mostly great. Then it starts to suffer from pretty rushed story and many encounters are very poorly balanced.

The oliphant encounters late in the game are able to just randomly get lots of turns right off the bat and completely obliterate the party, just from pure chance.

It’s still a pretty fun game though, with a few dips in quality.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

Yes, turn based combat is dead and the reason for that is that developers just don't have the talent or desire to make something GREAT anymore. the most prominent turn based RPGs in the last decade have all been shitty copies of FF7 (a lot of customization options but end up feeling empty) or FF9 (super rigid characters with almost zero customization options).
All you have to do is look at classic games like: Chrono Cross, The Legend of Dragoon, Valkyrie Profile lenneth, Valkyrie Profile 2 Silmeria, Valkyrie Profile: Covenant of the Plume, Live A Live, Super Mario RPG, Legend Of Legaia, FF5, FF 6, FF7, FF 12, compare these games to modern RPG slop and you will see what I mean.

This strikes me as particularly true. From my research for the Squaresoft series I've been writing, it is evident that back in the SNES/PS1 era Squaresoft was putting all of their efforts and passion behind the Final Fantasy games. Nowadays, turn based games made by Square Enix are the lowest effort attempts by the company. Even Octopath Traveller and Triangle Strategy, despite being good games, got a fraction of the budget that Final Fantasy XVI got. The retro turn based SE games are stuck with SNES level graphics (although with HD sprites and environments) and the same gameplay as the games of those era. Playing the same game over and over will get tiresome, they need to bring some innovation to the table. Most of these games are outsourced as well.

 

[FrayGuillermo]

I don't think turn-based is outdated, but I feel lazy about it nowadays and need a game that's really good or with a good enough twist on the combat for me to enjoy. For example, Yakuza Like a Dragon (which I'm playing rn, even tho its system is pretty basic) or SMT with the press turn system. Still have to try out BG3 but that's almost cheating as it's basically like playing tabletop D&D, if I'm not mistaken

 

[sun0wl]

This strikes me as particularly true. From my research for the Squaresoft series I've been writing, it is evident that back in the SNES/PS1 era Squaresoft was putting all of their efforts and passion behind the Final Fantasy games. Nowadays, turn based games made by Square Enix are the lowest effort attempts by the company. Even Octopath Traveller and Triangle Strategy, despite being good games, got a fraction of the budget that Final Fantasy XVI got. The retro turn based SE games are stuck with SNES level graphics (although with HD sprites and environments) and the same gameplay as the games of those era. Playing the same game over and over will get tiresome, they need to bring some innovation to the table. Most of these games are outsourced as well.

I think this is exactly why people (including me) are so hype for Clair Obscur; it's one of the first almost-kinda-triple-A-ish titles that is truly turn-based in a while. Honestly reminds me of the last great generation of similar titles during the PS3/360 era like Lost Odyssey. I really hope it does well and puts the idea into Square and other devs' heads that people still like this kind of thing.

 

[Tonberry]

I think this is exactly why people (including me) are so hype for Clair Obscur; it's one of the first almost-kinda-triple-A-ish titles that is truly turn-based in a while. Honestly reminds me of the last great generation of similar titles during the PS3/360 era like Lost Odyssey. I really hope it does well and puts the idea into Square and other devs' heads that people still like this kind of thing.

I'm really excited for it too.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

I'm really excited for it too.

Hey, I was excited first!

 

[Tonberry]

Hey, I was excited first!

I apologize profusely...

 

[Sir Auriel of Lionel]

I mean I don't want to sound like a shill but I did buy the newest SaGa titles when it first launched so at least they understand their SaGa rereleases and remakes are working to that Turn Based till.

 

[sun0wl]

I mean I don't want to sound like a shill but I did buy the newest SaGa titles when it first launched so at least they understand their SaGa rereleases and remakes are working to that Turn Based till.

Same, I think I've done this with most turn-based remasters that have come out. My backlog is mostly turn-based at this point lol I've accepted my fate

 

[FlameSpice]

It fully depends on who's playing it. Some people don't enjoy turn-based games because the think it's boring, and some people like turn-based games. After all, it's more strategic and careful decision-making. If the person who made this argument thinks that turn-based games are boring, there's a lot of people telling otherwise.

 

[Big Finger Jim]

I think by now, unless you're Dragon Quest, you do need to spice it up a bit and preferably make it faster paced. Infinite Wealth is the perfect example of this cuz how fluent and just fun it is to play. Persona and newer SMT stuff is also a real good example, and that Expedition 33 game, from what I've seen of it. Ultimately, it comes down to the passion and ambition of the people making the game.