"Turn based is outdated"

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

I see this argument being made a few times in Final Fantasy fandom to justify a preference in gameplay or amongst people who defend business choices of corporations that are anti-consumer.

Basically this video sums up my feelings. We are still playing board games from a thousand years ago, from a hundred years ago and finding new variations to enjoy. So before you assume something you don't enjoy is "outdated" consider that there are some concepts that work and make sense to humans that will never go out of style.

 

[Dyne]

I like Resonant Arc too! I have to watch them at 1.25x speed though.

Yeah turn-based is not, and will never be, outdated.
I actually prefer turn-based rpgs to action rpgs (what happened to you, Final Fantasy??)

 

[Waffles's iconWaffles]

I do like the strategizing that comes with planning ahead, and I do think many games can benefit enormously from it (I'm a huge Dragon Quest and Lunar fan -- both are turn-based, and rock). However, I do think action RPGs can be the superior product for those of us who enjoy a more direct approach, as demonstrated by the Summon Night games on GBA.

 

[Dyne]

I do like the strategizing that comes with planning ahead, and I do think many games can benefit enormously from it (I'm a huge Dragon Quest and Lunar fan -- both are turn-based, and rock). However, I do think action RPGs can be the superior product for those of us who enjoy a more direct approach, as demonstrated by the Summon Night games on GBA.

They both have their place, for sure. I'm glad we have both

 

[HextarVigar]

That is an incredibly stupid argument. That's like saying riding a bike or walking is outdated because we have cars.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

I do like the strategizing that comes with planning ahead, and I do think many games can benefit enormously from it (I'm a huge Dragon Quest and Lunar fan -- both are turn-based, and rock). However, I do think action RPGs can be the superior product for those of us who enjoy a more direct approach, as demonstrated by the Summon Night games on GBA.

I don't think that is necessarily wrong. I enjoy many real time action RPG games such as the Elder Scrolls, Witcher and Souls series. I do think that turn based is almost necessary for a large party based RPG experience with depth. I cannot imagine a player successfully controlling more than two characters in real time and strategizing at the same time.

Post automatically merged: Feb 17, 2025

That is an incredibly stupid argument. That's like saying riding a bike or walking is outdated because we have cars.

And yet a lot of these stupid people work for multi million dollar corporations.

Why Final Fantasy moved away from command and turn-based combat

Naoki Yoshida on why Final Fantasy 16 won't be command or turn-based

www.gamesradar.com

 

[MasterEn]

i could probably write several paragraphs discussing this subject. but i'll just leave this next sentence as my response to those people who say "turn based is outdated".
those who say turn based games are outdated and unnecessary; are the ones who lost to the first rival battle in the pokemon games.

 

[Waffles's iconWaffles]

I don't think that is necessarily wrong. I enjoy many real time action RPG games such as the Elder Scroll , Witcher and Souls series. I do think that turn based is almost necessary for a large party based RPG experience with depth. I cannot imagine a player successfully controlling more than two characters in real time with success and strategizing at the same time.

I haven't really played them, but don't you control a whole bunch of people at once on Dungeon Siege?

 

[trickybus]

I'll have to come back later to watch the video; however, I agree with the sentiment right off the bat. My experience is a bit different in that I enjoy games that combine RT with turn-based (Child of Light, Transistor). While I don't believe this viewpoint is mainstream, I've seen a lot of vocal complaints about this style to the point where its detractors are advocating its demise. This makes me a sad panda.

I get that there are examples of RT/turn-based done poorly but how are developers meant to explore variations of standard mechanics if they're not allowed to fail while experimenting?

 

[HextarVigar]

I don't think that is necessarily wrong. I enjoy many real time action RPG games such as the Elder Scrolls, Witcher and Souls series. I do think that turn based is almost necessary for a large party based RPG experience with depth. I cannot imagine a player successfully controlling more than two characters in real time and strategizing at the same time.

Post automatically merged: Feb 17, 2025

And yet a lot of these stupid people work for multi million dollar corporations.

Why Final Fantasy moved away from command and turn-based combat

Naoki Yoshida on why Final Fantasy 16 won't be command or turn-based

www.gamesradar.com

If they want to do it that way that's their prerogative, but calling it "outdated" is just ignorant.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

I haven't really played them, but don't you control a whole bunch of people at once on Dungeon Siege?

Usually those games are forced to implement AI controlled characters. And that's a fine compromise, but it really depends on the skill of the AI programmer. Nothing worse than a bunch of party members getting themselves killed because of bad programming.

 

[Waffles's iconWaffles]

Usually those games are forced to implement AI controlled characters. And that's a fine compromise, but it really depends on the skill of the AI programmer. Nothing worse than a bunch of party members getting themselves killed because of bad programming.

As a Daikatana fan, I couldn't agree more.

 

[fake-kun]

To make turn-based combat interesting, you need strategy. But most JRPG fans only care about stories, so the devs remove strategy and let you grind, making combat repetitive and boring.

 

[Bonkers225]

It's only outdated if it affects sales, and gets lots of criticism from the consumers(Dragon Quest says no).

 

[Dyne]

To make turn-based combat interesting, you need strategy. But most JRPG fans only care about stories, so the devs remove strategy and let you grind, making the combat repetitive and boring.

Some JRPGs are like that. Plenty are not. But this is why I usually play on hard mode if the game offers it on turn based games.

 

[glui]

I see this argument being made a few times in Final Fantasy fandom to justify a preference in gameplay or amongst people who defend business choices of corporations that are anti-consumer.

Basically this video sums up my feelings. We are still playing board games from a thousand years ago, from a hundred years ago and finding new variations to enjoy. So before you assume something you don't enjoy is "outdated" consider that there are some concepts that work and make sense to humans that will never go out of style.

Im of the crowd that both turn based and action are good in their respective games, but I also believe that both overlap each other to some degree. A lot of rugs could be primarily turn based, but take some aspects from action rags (Mario and Luigi games), while a lot of action rpgs take some aspects from turn based (P5 strikers) . I think both help to support the other, and both can stand on their own in the current landscape of rpgs as a whole.

 

[HextarVigar]

To make turn-based combat interesting, you need strategy. But most JRPG fans only care about stories, so the devs remove strategy and let you grind, making the combat repetitive and boring.

Trails Through Daybreak actually lets you use both. You can swap between real time and turn based at will.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

To make turn-based combat interesting, you need strategy. But most JRPG fans only care about stories, so the devs remove strategy and let you grind, making the combat repetitive and boring.

I agree, but there are many no-grind/zero level up runs of various Final Fantasy games. They make the games a lot more interesting. The strategy option is there, but you can opt out through grinding, which is fair for those who just want to roll through every enemy.

And I agree with one point mentioned in the video, turn based developers haven't scratched the surface of strategic and interesting gameplay possibilities in turn based RPGs. Console RPGs could benefit from deepening their strategy from looking at board games or TCGs, while also deepening their story based gameplay from looking at story techniques from RP games like D&D.

 

[PaleFolklore]

It may be a cliché take, but the effectiveness of turn-based combat really depends on how well the system is executed.

Not every game with turn-based combat feels sluggish, boring, or like a chore to play—in fact, I'd argue that such games are relatively rare.

Ultimately, it comes down to how the developers view the system's relevance within the broader game design. I don’t believe treating turn-based combat as an "Ol' Reliable"—a concept that's somehow foolproof, especially in the context of JRPGs—is the way to create a consistently engaging experience.

Yet, as others have stated, it seems this is still a bit of a phenomenon in new JRPGs that does bother me, to a certain degree.

Perhaps I'm being too nitpicky? Maybe. Still feel it needs to be stated, though.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

It may be a cliché take, but the effectiveness of turn-based combat really depends on how well the system is executed.

You could say the same about action combat, I find a lot of the action games people enjoy to be braindead and not interesting. Final Fantasy XV in particular seemed awful to me from watching let's plays and previews. How anyone thinks that is an upgrade over turn based is beyond me.

 

[DanVzare]

I agree, but there are many no-grind/zero level up runs of various Final Fantasy games. They make the games a lot more interesting. The strategy option is there, but you can opt out through grinding, which is fair for those who just want to roll through every enemy.

I couldn't agree more. And on a related note, this is the exact reason why I hate level scaling. It removes the entire point of a leveling system, especially in turn-based games.

 

[Evaccaneer Doom]

I see this argument being made a few times in Final Fantasy fandom to justify a preference in gameplay or amongst people who defend business choices of corporations that are anti-consumer.

People been saying this for ages, I remember a few years back when my grandma was adopting her new cat and I think I talked about wanting to do game design in the future, the guy said word for word "Don't make a turn based RPG, they're outdated." I then proceeded to tell him about the fact that Undertale and Omori are two of the most recognisable and beloved indie games of the generation and both were turn based RPGs. This was before I learned of the Persona games if I remember correctly, but I 100% would've brought up Persona 5 if I had.

Sentiment just confuses me, it's like people didn't notice how Persona 5, SMT's recent entries, Yakuza 7, various indie games, etc are incredibly successful. I'm starting to see the sentiment a lot less though.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

People been saying this for ages, I remember a few years back when my grandma was adopting her new cat and I think I talked about wanting to do game design in the future, the guy said word for word "Don't make a turn based RPG, they're outdated." I then proceeded to tell him about the fact that Undertale and Omori are two of the most recognisable and beloved indie games of the generation and both were turn based RPGs. This was before I learned of the Persona games if I remember correctly, but I 100% would've brought up Persona 5 if I had.

Sentiment just confuses me, it's like people didn't notice how Persona 5, SMT's recent entries, Yakuza 7, various indie games, etc are incredibly successful. I'm starting to see the sentiment a lot less though.

I honestly believe that average people don't care about gameplay as much as the executives think. People complain about the most random things in surveys and questionaires but they'll still buy whatever they think is cool and is marketed properly. Having said that, I do believe that RPG companies could do a better job of rethinking the presentation of turn based games and making them more visually interesting and intuitive.

 

[Pearly]

I think that turn based and real time both have their place, I loved dragon quest for years, final fantasy too.

I'd be lying if I said I outright prefer turn based, but turn based works great for creating tension in boss battles and works great in strategy games too.

That said though, turn based games didn't really become accepted again till Persona 5 exploded in popularity and it was considered outdated by FF13s release despite being the main combat system in the literally beloved FFX that released a few years prior.

It was also the age of the brown/grey shooter era though.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

I think that turn based and real time both have their place, I loved dragon quest for years, final fantasy too.

I'd be lying if I said I outright prefer turn based, but turn based works great for creating tension in boss battles and works great in strategy games too.

That said though, turn based games didn't really become accepted again till Persona 5 exploded in popularity and it was considered outdated by FF13s release despite being the main combat system in the literally beloved FFX that released a few years prior.

It was also the age of the brown/grey shooter era though.

Considered outdated by whom though? Turn based games were fine, the companies making them were doing a poor job at innovation during the PS3 era. They fell into a creative rut and kept redoing the same thing over and over. FFXIII actually had some interesting turn based mechanics but the story and level design were what sunk the game in the eyes of many of the fans.