The true villain of FF7

[Hourai]

You need to remember that FF7 OG translation was pretty bad. And there's this thing - Jenova's body and the Sephiroth Copies went to the Northern Crater, the place were Sephiroth was waiting - not to Shinra Tower, the place Jenova's body were resting.

I mean, you can also look at it the other way around: a perfect puppet is already at the Northern Crater, and why would you stay at a place owned by people who treat you as a science experiment? That'd be a foolish move to make.

 

[Yuki Senoue]

That is how I feel about it and I don't have a lot of respect for the FF7 extended universe content since it didn't come from the mind of the OG FF7 team.

But the writter for FF7 Advent Children, Crisis Core FF7, FFVII: The First Soldier and the FF7 remake project is Kazushige Nojima, who wrote the FF7 original story. I don't like the Compilation of FFVII either, I think it diminish the story of the OG, which was pretty good and didn't need extensions. But not let kid ourselves and say it didn't come from the same people, because it did.

You aren't supposed to like their choice. It is a world building story choice to show the desperate state of people in the Midgar slums. When people choose to perform terroristic acts it is out of desperation, not because they were bored. Granted, it is kind of a complicated idea to throw in a game meant for kids, but there's a reason for it.

I don't think they're arguing in good faith - just pay attention to their language and how they're mischaracterized the story of FFVII in their first post in this thread.

 

[Cantarella]

I'm not particularly interested in what people have to say outside the game. If I recall correctly, the game doesn't really suggest that, in the same way it doesn't take a stance on the support of Jenova controlling Sephiroth. If it was important enough to make it known to be fact, they should've put it in.

It's somewhat ambiguous, and I'm not sure that any one personality is fully 'in control,' but the game does support the idea that Sephiroth is not, like, subsumed. There's stuff to suggest he is exerting some kind of influence.

Jenovaroth makes things very personal for Cloud. Like, really goes the extra mile to twist the knife. The idea that this would be a priority for this ancient alien creature seems pretty dubious. Also, there's the fact that Jenova is assuming Sephiroth's form for most of the game. Surely Sephiroth's body is not like, the absolute most efficient solution to every solution, but it makes more sense if Sephiroth has some kind of 'say.'

Depending on how you read the final... final, post-final boss battle, it can also feel like Cloud is making one last concerted effort to shake himself from Sephiroth's will, not Jenova's.

You need to remember that FF7 OG translation was pretty bad. And there's this thing - Jenova's body and the Sephiroth Copies went to the Northern Crater, the place were Sephiroth was waiting - not to Shinra Tower, the place Jenova's body were resting.

Well, here's another example of the translation being questionable. There's no such thing as a Sephiroth copy/clone in the original game. Doesn't exist. The hooded figures are just dudes with jenova cells.
Also, by the time you're talking about, Jenova had moved, and indeed heads to the Northern Crater.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

But the writter for FF7 Advent Children, Crisis Core FF7, FFVII: The First Soldier and the FF7 remake project is Kazushige Nojima, who wrote the FF7 original story. I don't like the Compilation of FFVII either, I think it diminish the story of the OG, which was pretty good and didn't need extensions. But not let kid ourselves and say it didn't come from the same people, because it did.

Sakaguchi and Kitase were involved in the story of OG FF7. To what extent, it is unclear, but I feel like the Mako Energy and Lifestream stuff came from Sakaguchi, since similar plot points appeared in Chrono Trigger and FF:Spirits Within.

 

[valosagutas]

You aren't supposed to like their choice. It is a world building story choice to show the desperate state of people in the Midgar slums. When people choose to perform terroristic acts it is out of desperation, not because they were bored. Granted, it is kind of a complicated idea to throw in a game meant for kids, but there's a reason for it.

Hmm, I rather ignored their choices, found the situations boring.

 

[Yuki Senoue]

Well, here's another example of the translation being questionable. There's no such thing as a Sephiroth copy/clone in the original game. Doesn't exist. The hooded figures are just dudes with jenova cells.
Also, by the time you're talking about, Jenova had moved, and indeed heads to the Northern Crater.

No, the "Sephiroth Copies" did exist in the original game: while "clone" is in fact a misnomer given by the translation, I checked a dump of the japanese script and Hojo uses the expression "Sephiroth Copy" セフィロス・コピー

I mean, you can also look at it the other way around: a perfect puppet is already at the Northern Crater, and why would you stay at a place owned by people who treat you as a science experiment? That'd be a foolish move to make.

So why does Jenova only starts moving only when Cloud arrives at Shinra Tower?

 

[Cantarella]

Oh, I also wanted to add: Sephiroth was injected with Jenova cells while he was a fetus. Jenova's abilities are not totally understood, but given the info we know and its nature, like, it's very unlikely that those cells just stayed 'inert.' They were growing with Sephiroth, and his body seemed to be pretty friendly'with them.

When people talk about who was in control, it tends to be framed as like, alien vs human. But it's questionable how much of Sephiroth was human in the first place. I don't think Jenova cells see him as any kind of foreign body the way they do other entities.

Post automatically merged: Today at 2:33 AM

No, the "Sephiroth Copies" did exist in the original game: while "clone" is in fact a misnomer given by the translation, I checked a dump of the japanese script and Hojo uses the expression "Sephiroth Copy" セフィロス・コピー

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So why does Jenova only starts moving only when Cloud arrives at Shinra Tower?

Yeah, but that's Hojo talking about his ambition to create a being 'like Sephiroth.' He also explicitly failed, both with Cloud and everyone else. There's no such being in the game. Doesn't exist, like I said. And we were talking about the Sephiroth clone(s), i.e. the hooded figures heading towards the Northern Crater. Don't think it makes any sense to call them Sephiroth copies just because that's what Hojo was trying to do any more than it makes sense to call the cake I tried to bake yesterday good because I meant to make it good (rip)

 

[MasterEn]

It's been too long since I played this game. I remember it as you were part of a terrorist group, rather a religious cult who is crazy enough to believe planet is alive or something, so to prevent people from "hurting the planet" you were destroying power stations because "they ruin environment" because you love nature lol, because of it your terrorist ideology to protect nature is way important than innocent people's lives because every time you destroy a part of the city they die and then you ironically ruin envoirement further so much the solar system got angry and sent meteor to the world just to defeat you but then you also defeated meteor (what?) but in the end you ended whole humanity's progression just because of your evil religious cult. As a result your whole actions make people live like monkeys as they get back to living in caves. The game is more like "Native American Fantasy 7". Do I remember wrong? lololol

FF7's woke idea due to popular idea of "climate change is dangerous so we gotta save the environment" made the game seem cringe and dull, not to mention the whole game seems "wrong". They could also develop a video game about saving animals because back then it was a huge thing to see monkeys on tv as everyone cared about animal's right and whatnot woke BS lol.

the "cult" stuff isn't really noticeable in ff7. you can see some stuff like that in crisis core.
you did pretty much summarize the game's story perfectly. 3 discs in one paragraph.

the fact that ff7 is coherent enough for us to even deduce that part of its story is about environmentalism is probably nothing short of a miracle, considering its short production time after about a year's worth of time was wasted before deciding on a console to make the game for. the story changed several times before and while the psx was selected as the console to develop the game for.

i'm also certain that humans are extinct in the ending of ff7. not entirely sure, but midgar looks like a city indiana jones would go and visit in the ending.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

Hmm, I rather ignored their choices, found the situations boring.

the "cult" stuff isn't really noticeable in ff7. you can see some stuff like that in crisis core.
you did pretty much summarize the game's story perfectly. 3 discs in one paragraph.

are you sure about that? lol

 

[Cantarella]

you did pretty much summarize the game's story perfectly. 3 discs in one paragraph.

in what sense. the only part of that that was true was that you do, in fact, blow up stuff at the very beginning of the game

as to the ending, idk it's ambiguous but I always interpreted it as humans learning to live with nature, in which case there's no need for a city like Midgar. don't care what that goon Kitase says.

Also, that entire post-credits scene is punctuated by children laughing. Seems like an odd thing to intentionally put in as the very last sfx of your game if all humans are dead.

 

[valosagutas]

the "cult" stuff isn't really noticeable in ff7. you can see some stuff like that in crisis core.
you did pretty much summarize the game's story perfectly. 3 discs in one paragraph.

the fact that ff7 is coherent enough for us to even deduce that part of its story is about environmentalism is probably nothing short of a miracle, considering its short production time after about a year's worth of time was wasted before deciding on a console to make the game for. the story changed several times before and while the psx was selected as the console to develop the game for.

i'm also certain that humans are extinct in the ending of ff7. not entirely sure, but midgar looks like a city indiana jones would go and visit in the ending.

Wow, I was really conflicted if I'm even able to remember the game that much lol. But I admit I have no idea of the characters people mentioned here. According to what they say these people seem like the real villain. I mean the game seem like making you look bad but then you learn you were actually right. Then perhaps great attractive aspect of the game is the relief you feel that you weren't bad, whatever bad happened because of the real villain. What a twist lol.

But gotta admit they releasing such a game at the time is admirable. I think it was a huge risk, but ended up being loved so dearly. I love the way how Square games aim to present players so many great different experiences in their video games.

 

[MasterEn]

in what sense. the only part of that that was true was that you do, in fact, blow up stuff at the very beginning of the game

as to the ending, idk it's ambiguous but I always interpreted it as humans learning to live with nature, in which case there's no need for a city like Midgar. don't care what that goon Kitase says.

Also, that entire post-credits scene is punctuated by children laughing. Seems like an odd thing to intentionally put in as the very last sfx of your game if all humans are dead.

i got to the final battle but i was under leveled by a lot so i couldn't beat safer sephiroth; but i did watch the movie and it opens with midgar being covered in plants; so i assumed that it was just a shiny version of the game's ending cutscene.

they could be ghosts; the final fantasy games share a universe, and ghosts do exist in the games. so, ghost kids laughing wouldn't be too unusual. probably someone trying to make a point or something.

i could try to summarize the game if you think valosagutas didn't do a good enough job of it.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

they could be ghosts; the final fantasy games share a universe, and ghosts do exist in the games. so, ghost kids laughing wouldn't be too unusual. probably someone trying to make a point or something.

gonna need a quote on that one bro.

i could try to summarize the game if you think valosagutas didn't do a good enough job of it.

eh, nah, take a break. You guys did a fine job.

 

[MasterEn]

gonna need a quote on that one bro.

ffx is the prequel to ff7, as stated by Nomura himself and ff4 the after years confirms that several of the games, 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6 existed at some point in time, though it is heavily implied that those worlds are destroyed and gone at that point.

 

[soulsas]

The true villain is capitalism, since Shinra exploits the planet.
Sephirot as a Shinra SOLDIER, he would technically be an agent of a right-wing, pro-corporate authoritarian regime — although I think his own political philosophy, which led to the Nibelheim incident, is largely apolitical, or at least apathetically complacent with the institution he serves.
Post-Nibelheim? One could argue that Sephiroth would be an anarchist in the broadest, though most extreme, sense of the term, seeking to overthrow the established world order (like Barret), but only as a means to a greater end: proclaiming himself the world's destroyer/god-ruler.
I dropped a bomb and ran away lol.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

ffx is the prequel to ff7, as stated by Nomura himself and ff4 the after years confirms that several of the games, 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6 existed at some point in time, though it is heavily implied that those worlds are destroyed and gone at that point.

Yeah considering that Nomura is a FF terrorist and the story of FF7 was a collaboration between Kitase, Sakaguchi and Nojima, I think his thoughts about what is canon can be safely ignored.

 

[Cantarella]

well, we can try to enter the brains of the developers and suss out which possibility is more likely.

universe 1: i will put in the sound of children's laughter after this shot of an empty city to implant the idea that 'life is finding a way'

universe 2: *creepy guy emerges from the closet covered in slime* hehehe.... ghosts...

as much as I would like more video games summaries like the one from ai ghibli guy, I can make my own by feeding a copy of the nes bootleg's script and a review of 'Dude where's my car' to a markov chain.

 

[Yuki Senoue]

Sakaguchi and Kitase were involved in the story of OG FF7. To what extent, it is unclear, but I feel like the Mako Energy and Lifestream stuff came from Sakaguchi, since similar plot points appeared in Chrono Trigger and FF:Spirits Within.

Yes, the Lifestream concept indeed came from Sakaguchi, and it was one of the things that survived in the final draft of the game. His draft was completelly different from the final game, but it already had some elements. It wasn't just Nojima who wrote the story of FFVII, but he was the person responsible for taking everyone's efforts and made sure it didn't contradict each other.

Yeah, but that's Hojo talking about his ambition to create a being 'like Sephiroth.' He also explicitly failed, both with Cloud and everyone else. There's no such being in the game. Doesn't exist, like I said. And we were talking about the Sephiroth clone(s), i.e. the hooded figures heading towards the Northern Crater. Don't think it makes any sense to call them Sephiroth copies just because that's what Hojo was trying to do any more than it makes sense to call the cake I tried to bake yesterday good because I meant to make it good (rip)

Hojo was a maniac who was full of himself. He called the hooded figures "Sephiroth Copies" because his idea was not to "clone" Sephiroth, but to "copy" the process used to create him. And he was full of misconceptions about Jenova; he was sure she was an Ancient, and we know he was dead wrong. He was always seen as a inferior scientist to Gast. He giving a nonsensical name to his little pet project was completelly in-character. Almost everything he tried to create was inhumane and a failure. And the funny thing is that Cloud WAS a success, he even says it himselft in the game, and gets somewhat annoyed by the fact the only he thought was a failure succeeded.

 

[MasterEn]

Yeah considering that Nomura is a FF terrorist and the story of FF7 was a collaboration between Kitase, Sakaguchi and Nojima, I think his thoughts about what is canon can be safely ignored.

even if you do that, ffx-2 does support this with the character shinra, who wants to make space ships and rockets to explore space; and the humans on the planet in ff7 got there by space travel.
so, its canon. whether we like it or not.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

even if you do that, ffx-2 does support this with the character shinra, who wants to make space ships and rockets to explore space; and the humans on the planet in ff7 got there by space travel.
so, its canon. whether we like it or not.

I choose to make everything in spinoffs and what Nomura says un-canon just to enhance my enjoyment of the Final Fantasy series. But you do you.

 

[Patches]

I'm still trying to figure out where they were going with the secret ending to dirge of cerberus all the way in the year 2025.

 

[Yuki Senoue]

ffx is the prequel to ff7, as stated by Nomura himself and ff4 the after years confirms that several of the games, 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6 existed at some point in time, though it is heavily implied that those worlds are destroyed and gone at that point.

It wasn't Nomura who said that! It was Nojima! People believe everything, please, check your sources!

AND IT WAS A JOKE!

Shinra (Final Fantasy X-2)

Shinra is a young Al Bhed boy who serves aboard the Celsius in Final Fantasy X-2. A technical prodigy, he designed the Garment Grid system and the CommSphere communicators, helps decode the various spheres the Gullwings locate, and designs a display sphere for Yuna's concert. Shinra rewards the...

finalfantasy.fandom.com

In an interview with a French Final Fantasy website Finaland Nojima commented on the link thusly: "This story is a bit of a joke. When we created FFX-2, we wanted to create something, a totally new world. Except that when I created it, I realized that it looked a lot like FFVII... But without realizing it. Afterwards, when it was officially said in Ultimania, it took a completely gigantic proportion when it was just an anecdote."

And someone who played FF4TAY can confirm it? I don't believe this claim at all.

 

[MasterEn]

I choose to make everything in spinoffs and what Nomura says un-canon just to enhance my enjoyment of the Final Fantasy series. But you do you.

i think most people do that nowadays. with most properties and series.
and going by what i've read about the later installments of some of the final fantasy properties, ignoring everything before or after the mainline game entry is probably for the best.

Post automatically merged: Today at 3:15 AM

It wasn't Nomura who said that! It was Nojima! People believe everything, please, check your sources!

AND IT WAS A JOKE!

Shinra (Final Fantasy X-2)

Shinra is a young Al Bhed boy who serves aboard the Celsius in Final Fantasy X-2. A technical prodigy, he designed the Garment Grid system and the CommSphere communicators, helps decode the various spheres the Gullwings locate, and designs a display sphere for Yuna's concert. Shinra rewards the...

finalfantasy.fandom.com

In an interview with a French Final Fantasy website Finaland Nojima commented on the link thusly: "This story is a bit of a joke. When we created FFX-2, we wanted to create something, a totally new world. Except that when I created it, I realized that it looked a lot like FFVII... But without realizing it. Afterwards, when it was officially said in Ultimania, it took a completely gigantic proportion when it was just an anecdote."

And someone who played FF4TAY can confirm it? I don't believe this claim at all.

oh, i didn't know that someone else said that. i was certain that nomura said it. that's one of the few names that i've heard of associated with final fantasy. sorry about that.
not sure how the world of ffx looks like ff7. i'll look at some maps. seems weird to confuse the maps of your company's games, but it could happen.
i got the psp version of ff4 and i hadn't played the sequel game before, so i checked it out. it would have been much better as a stand alone game instead of a sequel to the best game in the series.

 

[Yuki Senoue]

as to the ending, idk it's ambiguous but I always interpreted it as humans learning to live with nature, in which case there's no need for a city like Midgar. don't care what that goon Kitase says.

Also, that entire post-credits scene is punctuated by children laughing. Seems like an odd thing to intentionally put in as the very last sfx of your game if all humans are dead.

What did Kitase say about it? And yes, your interpretation is the correct one: this video, at 2:07, shows a Nojima's interview where he confirms humanity survived.

Here's the complete interview: https://www.shinraarchaeology.com/resources/article_pdfs/dreamaga_oct03.pdf

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

i think most people do that nowadays. with most properties and series.
and going by what i've read about the later installments of some of the final fantasy properties, ignoring everything before or after the mainline game entry is probably for the best.

Yeah, sometimes these games are better when they leave things unexplained. Like the nature of Jenova and Sepiroth's past. The constant low effort sequels and spinoffs only serve to dilute the story and make people question why the original was popular in the first place. Especially if the spinoffs are directed/written by Nomura/Nojima.