The paradigm shift in RPGs

[RageBurner]

I was thinking about this lately; pretty much anything that gets remade these days in the RPG space gets its turn based combat ripped out and replaced by action driven style.

There are exceptions of course (Romancing Saga 2 Remake is a shining example), as is Dragon Quest. As a rule, though, it seems like an unutterable blasphemy to have AAA stuff be turn based.

I know why they do it, so that wide eyed young ones can have some bombastic action with their poorly optimized, DLSS requiring "masterpieces ".

Yes I'm ranting... just give me back my turns.

 

[ThatsNotRich]

I feel you man. It's a weird area we are in nowadays

 

[SkunkyBeaumont]

I remember playing this song in the prog rock ensemble at University. It was a pain in the ass to get down.

 

[Stookymalarkey]

It's due to Square Enix's terrible modern day leadership. It's the same out of touch dolts that thought single player games were dead until Witcher 3 taught them otherwise and that NFTs were worth focusing on at the expense of new games. They don't realize that there's still a market for turn based games, as the success of Persona 5 and Like a Dragon: Infinite Wealth demonstrate.

 

[fake-kun]

Eh, let's be real here. Most people don't play RPGs for the gameplay. It doesn't make a difference for them what kind of combat the game has, as long as they can follow the story.

 

[SkunkyBeaumont]

Turn based was kinda out by the time of the 16-bit era, with the ATB system, and other real time battle systems really taking control of the conversation. In western RPGs, things had definitely moved over to the click to death Diablo model, or pause to give action real time of Black Isle studios style games by the mid 90s. Any game with a turn based battle system was essentially a throw back even then.

 

[RageBurner]

Eh, let's be real here. Most people don't play RPGs for the gameplay. It doesn't make difference for them what kind of combat the game has, as long as they can follow the story.

Great point! combat is important for me personally, though.

 

[SkunkyBeaumont]

Great point! combat is important for me personally, though.

I like making the numbers go up myself.

 

[Stookymalarkey]

Eh, let's be real here. Most people don't play RPGs for the gameplay. It doesn't make difference for them what kind of combat the game has, as long as they can follow the story.

Guess I'm the exception. If a game is brain dead easy or completely unbalanced I'd abandon it in a heartbeat. Going back to my example, I doubt Persona 5 would succeed if the battles were garbage.

 

[fake-kun]

Guess I'm the exception. If a game is brain dead easy or completely unbalanced I'd abandon it in a heartbeat. Going back to my example, I doubt Persona 5 would succeed if the battles were garbage.

Naturally. But as long as the combat is easy enough, most people won't complain.

 

[Strategist]

My take on this discussion is the following: Build whatever gameplay you feel the most passionate about and the fans will follow you. For example, Baldur's Gate 3 and Persona delivered fresh takes on the turn based genre and found audiences. If you blindly follow trends like Square Enix and your action games are not up to standards with the rest of the market, fans can see that too.

No, turn based isn't outdated. That's like saying chess is outdated. Games that involve taking turns will continue to exist until the end of humanity.

 

[RageBurner]

Just as a disclaimer, I like action RPGs a lot as well (heck, Monster Hunter kinda sorta is one), but I like them because the action was part of the design, they were thought up this way from the ground up, not metamorphosed into something else to follow trends.

 

[Waffles]

I honestly thought that the writing on the wall for turn-based RPGs appeared in full once Lunar: Dragon Song was released as the first entry on that genre for the then-new Nintendo DS, and one of its SELLING FEATURES was the fact that you could speed up every encounter by holding a button. Strategizing and planning ahead be damned.

That bode terribly with me (particularly coming from a series known for its rich combat mechanics and excellent effects designed to make you enjoy every battle to the max while you hummed along as its rocking battle themes played). Unfortunately, that was just the first step.

 

[Gorse]

While I’m not crazy about action RPGs “replacing” the traditional stuff, I do think there’s a way to do turn-based gameplay that evolves a bit beyond the standard Dragon Quest-style “attack-take damage-heal-repeat loop” that isn’t just the ATB system. I’ve personally had games I was otherwise interested in totally push me away because the battles were excruciatingly boring and bog-standard. (Hello, Okage: Shadow King!)

JRPGs are popular because they don’t require fast reflexes or high amount of physical skill, so developers should consider more “tactical” ways of arranging their combat systems. That’s why I love strategy RPGs like Shining Force way, way more than, like, Final Fantasy — it’s slow-paced, but you have to think about what you’re doing and how it’s going to affect things later on. That’s what (in my opinion) should be influencing JRPGs, not, like, Devil May Cry.

 

[RageBurner]

While I’m not crazy about action RPGs “replacing” the traditional stuff, I do think there’s a way to do turn/based gameplay that evolves a bit beyond the standard Dragon Quest style “attack-take damage-heal-repeat loop” that isn’t just the ATB system.

JRPGs are popular because they don’t require fast reflexes or high amount of physical skill, so developers should consider more “tactical” ways of arranging their combat systems. That’s why I love strategy RPGs like Shining Force way, way more than, like, Final Fantasy — it’s slow-paced, but you have to think about what you’re doing and how it’s going to effect things later on. That’s what (in my opinion) should be influencing JRPGs, not, like, Devil May Cry.

What you allude to reminds me of Arc the Lad, one of my favorite series.

 

[UnDubious]

Turn based was kinda out by the time of the 16-bit era, with the ATB system, and other real time battle systems really taking control of the conversation. In western RPGs, things had definitely moved over to the click to death Diablo model, or pause to give action real time of Black Isle studios style games by the mid 90s. Any game with a turn based battle system was essentially a throw back even then.

The SNES has an insane amount of turn-based RPGs, several times more than action RPGs, and only Square used the ATB in a handful of games. It was absolutely not a throwback at the time. You started seeing more attempts at making turn-based more interesting in the following generations, by adding various gimmicks to the battle systems, including timing-based elements, but the systems were essentially still turn-based in a very large proportion of console/Japanese RPGs, as is the ATB system. This trend of action taking over is much more recent.

 

[Strategist]

While I’m not crazy about action RPGs “replacing” the traditional stuff, I do think there’s a way to do turn-based gameplay that evolves a bit beyond the standard Dragon Quest style “attack-take damage-heal-repeat loop” that isn’t just the ATB system. I’ve personally had games I was otherwise interested in totally push me away because the battles were excruciatingly boring and bog-standard. (Hello, Okage: Shadow King!)

JRPGs are popular because they don’t require fast reflexes or high amount of physical skill, so developers should consider more “tactical” ways of arranging their combat systems. That’s why I love strategy RPGs like Shining Force way, way more than, like, Final Fantasy — it’s slow-paced, but you have to think about what you’re doing and how it’s going to affect things later on. That’s what (in my opinion) should be influencing JRPGs, not, like, Devil May Cry.

Agree, one of the reasons that JRPGs have fallen out of favor is because they haven't innovated much since the 90's. Imagine if all the FPS games still played like Doom right now. I doubt the genre would still be as popular as it was then.

There have been attempts at the fringes to innovate, though. Like some of the Atlus games, like Etrian Odyssey. But not that many.

 

[RageBurner]

I bears mentioning that there was innovation even as far back as the mid-late 16-bit era of RPGs, but a lot of those innovative games were denied to us at the time due to staying Japan-exclusive.

 

[What's His Face]

Agree, one of the reasons that JRPGs have fallen out of favor is because they haven't innovated much since the 90's. Imagine if all the FPS games still played like Doom right now. I doubt the genre would still be as popular as it was then.

There have been attempts at the fringes to innovate, though. Like some of the Atlus games, like Etrian Odyssey. But not that many.

The same could be said of any genre, though. Racing? Pretty much the same today as it was in 1992. Fighting? You get more stuff added in like Roman Cancels, Tag, etc...but it's still punch the other dude to deplete their lifebar first. Action games? Some games place emphasis on stealth or dodging over "punch/shoot/etc. everything rapidly" over other games, but at the end of the day Ninja Gaiden 2 Sigma is very similar to Ninja Gaiden 2 just with a new dimension and some extra gimmicks.

That's the thing. There really hasn't been much in the way of "innovation" in the last 30 years, just new gimmicks added to old concepts to make it look/feel/play "fresh." That said, to say that the RPG genre hasn't "innovated" as much as other genres in the last 30 years is fallacious. There have been just as many gimmicks created for the RPG genre than there has been for any other genre. The issue most non-RPG players have in noticing these 'freshen-ups' is that they don't play RPGs outside the biggest of the big-brand releases to notice.

 

[RageBurner]

The same could be said of any genre, though. Racing? Pretty much the same today as it was in 1992. Fighting? You get more stuff added in like Roman Cancels, Tag, etc...but it's still punch the other dude to deplete their lifebar first. Action games? Some games place emphasis on stealth or dodging over "punch/shoot/etc. everything rapidly" over other games, but at the end of the day Ninja Gaiden 2 Sigma is very similar to Ninja Gaiden 2 just with a new dimension and some extra gimmicks.

That's the thing. There really hasn't been much in the way of "innovation" in the last 30 years, just new gimmicks added to old concepts to make it look/feel/play "fresh." That said, to say that the RPG genre hasn't "innovated" as much as other genres in the last 30 years is fallacious. There have been just as many gimmicks created for the RPG genre than there has been for any other genre. The issue most non-RPG players have in noticing these 'freshen-ups' is that they don't play RPGs outside the biggest of the big-brand releases to notice.

Very well said, and I'll add that a lot of people criticize RPGs despite not even trying any, too, but that also meshes well with your line of thinking - the same could be said of any genre.

 

[Strategist]

The same could be said of any genre, though. Racing? Pretty much the same today as it was in 1992. Fighting? You get more stuff added in like Roman Cancels, Tag, etc...but it's still punch the other dude to deplete their lifebar first. Action games? Some games place emphasis on stealth or dodging over "punch/shoot/etc. everything rapidly" over other games, but at the end of the day Ninja Gaiden 2 Sigma is very similar to Ninja Gaiden 2 just with a new dimension and some extra gimmicks.

That's the thing. There really hasn't been much in the way of "innovation" in the last 30 years, just new gimmicks added to old concepts to make it look/feel/play "fresh." That said, to say that the RPG genre hasn't "innovated" as much as other genres in the last 30 years is fallacious. There have been just as many gimmicks created for the RPG genre than there has been for any other genre. The issue most non-RPG players have in noticing these 'freshen-ups' is that they don't play RPGs outside the biggest of the big-brand releases to notice.

That's fair. Even Final Fantasy has innovated a lot. From turn based, to ATB, back to turn based, to real time with pause, to real time MMO style, to action.

Dragon Quest is the one that stays pretty bog standard.

 

[bjork]

I could be wrong, but I think as today's kids grow up and make games themselves, you'll see somewhat of a return to turn based. Part of it might be discovering classics, part of it might be "I just want a game I can sit down with a drink and relax with, while still enjoying these aesthetics."

 

[AI_Apex_Predator]

I think Undertale provided plenty of innovation and was also mainstream. So it goes to show that younger people are receptive to playing them.

I really liked the Trails of Cold Steel games too. Falcom has been pretty consistent with JRPGs. Great story, amazing battle system. A lot of QOL updates for the genre in general. The games can run on my laptop from 2014.

I've been playing through Fantasian recently. It's more of a callback to the old days than it is something new, but it fixes one of the biggest issues that people have with JRPGs and you can't fight me on this - random battles.

Everyone hates them, because they show up at awful times, you lose your place, etc. Even Sakaguchi was irritated with them when he replayed through FFVI. It was something the genre stuck with longer than it had to. I get it, its easier to program.

In Fantasian, you have a device that automatically sucks the battle into another dimension without skipping a beat on the map, and you can save the battles for later. When you do fight them, you have to fight a larger stream of monsters. The plus side of this, is that they give you power ups to collect on the field (you have some range control over your attacks). It makes fighting them alot more digestable, instead of repeating the same battle wave after wave. The only thing I wish is that it some of the QOL updates that Trails of Cold Steel has (footprints after battle, indicating where you came from), and a bigger budget like FFXVI.

I also think the genre needs better writing. Things that make people feel, or stories that make people question their perception. No more standard manga tropes + terrible pacing. Yakuza 7 was really good about breaking this up.

 

[Strategist]

I think Undertale provided plenty of innovation and was also mainstream. So it goes to show that younger people are receptive to playing them.

I really liked the Trails of Cold Steel games too. Falcom has been pretty consistent with JRPGs. Great story, amazing battle system. A lot of QOL updates for the genre in general. The games can run on my laptop from 2014.

I've been playing through Fantasian recently. It's more of a callback to the old days than it is something new, but it fixes one of the biggest issues that people have with JRPGs and you can't fight me on this - random battles.

Everyone hates them, because they show up at awful times, you lose your place, etc. Even Sakaguchi was irritated with them when he replayed through FFVI. It was something the genre stuck with longer than it had to. I get it, its easier to program.

In Fantasian, you have a device that automatically sucks the battle into another dimension without skipping a beat on the map, and you can save the battles for later. When you do fight them, you have to fight a larger stream of monsters. The plus side of this, is that they give you power ups to collect on the field (you have some range control over your attacks). It makes fighting them alot more digestable, instead of repeating the same battle wave after wave. The only thing I wish is that it some of the QOL updates that Trails of Cold Steel has (footprints after battle, indicating where you came from), and a bigger budget like FFXVI.

I also think the genre needs better writing. Things that make people feel, or stories that make people question their perception. No more standard manga tropes + terrible pacing. Yakuza 7 was really good about breaking this up.

Yeah, I'm with you with the random battles. Way more annoying than turn based combat, to be honest. When you want to grind, they don't come up fast enough and when you want to get from point A to point B, they are an hindrance. I think games like Chrono Trigger had the ideal way of handling encounters.

 

[RageBurner]

I think Undertale provided plenty of innovation and was also mainstream. So it goes to show that younger people are receptive to playing them.

I really liked the Trails of Cold Steel games too. Falcom has been pretty consistent with JRPGs. Great story, amazing battle system. A lot of QOL updates for the genre in general. The games can run on my laptop from 2014.

I've been playing through Fantasian recently. It's more of a callback to the old days than it is something new, but it fixes one of the biggest issues that people have with JRPGs and you can't fight me on this - random battles.

Everyone hates them, because they show up at awful times, you lose your place, etc. Even Sakaguchi was irritated with them when he replayed through FFVI. It was something the genre stuck with longer than it had to. I get it, its easier to program.

In Fantasian, you have a device that automatically sucks the battle into another dimension without skipping a beat on the map, and you can save the battles for later. When you do fight them, you have to fight a larger stream of monsters. The plus side of this, is that they give you power ups to collect on the field (you have some range control over your attacks). It makes fighting them alot more digestable, instead of repeating the same battle wave after wave. The only thing I wish is that it some of the QOL updates that Trails of Cold Steel has (footprints after battle, indicating where you came from), and a bigger budget like FFXVI.

I also think the genre needs better writing. Things that make people feel, or stories that make people question their perception. No more standard manga tropes + terrible pacing. Yakuza 7 was really good about breaking this up.

I agree with you completely regarding random battles. The way I see it you:
- Have a way to completely avoid them via items or
- Make encounters visible on the map or
- Have a reasonable rate by design

For any given RPG if you halve battle frequency and double rewards you maintain the same pace with a lot less frustration, and I appreciate patches that do this.