Sequel decay

[RageBurner]

What do you consider the core gameplay of SMT? Because several elements that were essential to me have been streamlined so much to the point they became inexistent. For example all the risk and resource management when venturing in big dungeons was completely trivialized thanks to ""QoL"" features like saving anywhere. I don't know what was the point of that final dungeon in Apocalypse because they literally give you a warp every 2 rooms. Bore the player to death?

I get what you're saying, but keep in mind they are games on a portable, it makes sense for a player to be able to stop on a dime and then return to the session when they are able. Regarding 4/A I didn't play that far, so I can't really comment.

One classic element that presented an interesting problem was magnetite consumption; that factor was all but extricated from series a long time ago.

Post automatically merged: Dec 9, 2024

I probably can’t do polls on a comment but I’ll ask this.
Do The following series series have sequel decay? Yay or nay?

1. Rayman
2. Donkey Kong
3. Kirby
4. Dragon quest
5. Shantae
6. Tales of
7. Star ocean
8. Saints row
9. Monster hunter

Curious what people think

I haven't played several of these, so I'll comment on those I have experience with and care about:

2. Donkey Kong: I feel the series managed to keep much of its spirit intact despite long hiatuses.
4. Dragon Quest: Likewise, I think the franchise has managed to hold on to its identity and not decay.
6. Tales Of: I personally have franchise fatigue on this. I like 3 games on the series, pretty much.
7. Star Ocean: Absolute nosedive after the first two, in my opinion.
9. I will always prefer classic MH (up to gen 4), but the series has been on an upswing for quite some time. Also I much prefer Rise to World.

 

[hembruh]

I think the thing about this in regards to games, is there are a lot of factors which make it kind of unique compared to other mediums that you might end up with a sequel that sucks.

you might get a game that's too much of the same and adds nothing new, maybe you get one that's too different, maybe the gameplay is close but has some baffling regression or missing feature that the last one had so it's two steps forward/one step back, or maybe the gameplay itself is good but the narrative sucks and takes a piss on what came before, retcons something or has character assassination of some old favorites or something.

with a movie, it usually comes down to writing/acting and possibly for some people how it looks. with the added element of interactivity (and that being the focus) it opens a lot more areas for a game sequel(s) to either succeed or fail and with wide margins either way. and of course, like anything it's widely subjective.

I was basically the only kid in school who thought Pokemon 3 sucked when it came out. I don't think they're bad games but then I would have told you it was terrible and my reasoning for it was the fact they got rid of the day/night cycle, the radio (which of course I never used anyways but I would have brought that up lol), and you didn't get to go to another region like Johto or Kanto. of course it was the first one on new hardware so it was unrealistic to think they'd have had that last one but I was a kid and it made me mad. the reason it pissed me off so much, was I felt that stuff was replaced with useless additions like weather that only happened in very specific areas, and the pokemon contests. it was a two steps forward one step back type of game, which gamefreak of course has held to that philosophy ever since.

sometimes you get something like Brave Fencer Musashi, which ruled and then it's sequel Musashi Samurai Legends which sucked all the charm out of the original game, and the gameplay is also totally different. other times you get stuff like Mega Man where eventually the formula just wears out or there is too little added to differentiate between entries. or maybe you get something like TLOU2 which I never played either so I can't speak on, but I know the storyline was highly divisive.

 

[Yousef]

I get what you're saying, but keep in mind they are games on a portable, it makes sense for a player to be able to stop on a dime and then return to the session when they are able. Regarding 4/A I didn't play that far, so I can't really comment.

One classic element that presented an interesting problem was magnetite consumption; that factor was all but extricated from series a long time ago.

Post automatically merged: Dec 9, 2024

I haven't played several of these, so I'll comment on those I have experience with and care about:

2. Donkey Kong: I feel the series managed to keep much of its spirit intact despite long hiatuses.
4. Dragon Quest: Likewise, I think the franchise has managed to hold on to its identity and not decay.
6. Tales Of: I personally have franchise fatigue on this. I like 3 games on the series, pretty much.
7. Star Ocean: Absolute nosedive after the first two, in my opinion.
9. I will always prefer classic MH (up to gen 4), but the series has been on an upswing for quite some time. Also I much prefer Rise to World.

I see thanks for answering.

 

[dropsmegamega]

I get what you're saying, but keep in mind they are games on a portable, it makes sense for a player to be able to stop on a dime and then return to the session when they are able. Regarding 4/A I didn't play that far, so I can't really comment.

One classic element that presented an interesting problem was magnetite consumption; that factor was all but extricated from series a long time ago.

Saving anywhere makes sense yes, but the way atlus added it in SJR was honestly disrespectful and thanks to atlus adding it so liberally in recent games its now understood as a "necessary QoL" by the modern fanbase to the point it won't be returning, portable or not. Magnetite consumption would be super interesting to have back too, but ironically its more likely for these things to come back in a spinoff than mainline.

 

[Leon]

I probably can’t do polls on a comment but I’ll ask this.
Do The following series series have sequel decay? Yay or nay?

1. Rayman
2. Donkey Kong
3. Kirby
4. Dragon quest
5. Shantae
6. Tales of
7. Star ocean
8. Saints row
9. Monster hunter

Curious what people think

1. No opinion as i've never played a rayman game.

2. I don't think personally that donkey kong has been good after country imo, but i have my bias against nintendo which may cloud my judgement.

3. Never really was interested in the series.

4. Dragon quest is fine, since the games are not set in the same world on average they don't suffer from sequel decay like some series do imo, a example of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

5. Shantae i think for the most part does what it does well, but it does feel like it's lost something in later entries, that said not a big shantae fan.

6. This one i don't think is fair, tales of games generally are made by different people at different times, sometimes it's great (vesperia, symphonia, destiny, arguably pre-dlc arise) and sometimes it's average to terrible (legendia, tempest, zestiria), i don't think "sequel decay" quite defines the tales of series well.

7. Star ocean after 3 has been in general, terrible, though some aren't fond of 3, i think it's just the story that sets most people off with star ocean 3 as it's such a tonal change from 1 and 2, otherwise i think it's up there with 2, but after 3 the series has become the embodiment of "sequel decay".

7. Saint's row isn't fair, 1-3 had the same people working on it for the most part, 4 had a few changes but nothing major, the reboot was by a entirely different, politically motivated team, which killed the franchise, to me the series was used as a soapbox and paid dearly for it.

8. Monster hunter i'll agree that it suffers more from the idea of "sequel decay" because unlike the other games in the list, it lacks things that make it different between entries, now whether this is a good or bad thing is in the eye of the beholder.


Since i'm a falcom fanboy i'll list my 2 series, both of which are 30+ years old, and i have differing opinions on both.

Ys imo is fine even after 11 games, because while it may follow the same character, the method of storytelling (in that each story is a new adventure) and the changing up of systems tend to keep it fresh.

The legend of heroes: trails of series on the other hand, is starting to suffer from story decay imo, the most recent daybreak game marks the 13th game in the saga and alot of people, myself included are hoping the series finally ends with daybreak 4, or at least it leads into the final saga, so that we can actually get a different series outside of zemuria once more.


Now for the hot takes, i think the persona series of games have strayed more and more from it's darker roots with 1 and 2 and became a hijacked series as of 3, making the series less and less interesting to me, to a extent this also applies to the shin megami tensei series as well.

And finally, generally any fighting game franchise falls into this eventually, but i think some weather it better than others.

 

[Ikagura]

Saint's row isn't fair, 1-3 had the same people working on it for the most part, 4 had a few changes but nothing major, the reboot was by a entirely different, politically motivated team, which killed the franchise, to me the series was used as a soapbox and paid dearly for it.

The Third was weaker than 2 but I still liked the mood. IV is in fact more of a glorified DLC (which is what it was about to begin with) yet I didn't dislike it, just that it went too much on the gimmicky aspect with that cheap Matrix style in a constantly dark Steelport (until the end of the game) instead of offering a proper day/night cycle and more stuff to do in the city because most of the interesting stuff is in the side missions...

Gat out of Hell is ironically a much more condensed semi-DLC for SR but I do wish SR 1&2 got a proper remaster on PC...

Ys imo is fine even after 11 games, because while it may follow the same character, the method of storytelling (in that each story is a new adventure) and the changing up of systems tend to keep it fresh.

Ys is quite a special case, the franchise went into at least 5 gameplay style in its history (counting Wanderer as its separate one) and some fans still complained about how Adol was no longer solo in the games since Seven but at least the gameplay is still fast paced action RPG.

I got a bit worried about X being "closer to a souls like" but it's not too far from Lacrimosa's style (albeit with 2 characters than 3).

The Three Weapons/Magic system from Napishtim/Felghana/Origin is still, like many older fans, my favourite although I still enjoy bump gameplay (especially in Chronicles and Dawn).

Shame we'll never see bump making a comeback for obvious reasons and that solo Adol isn't an option by default.

 

[Leon]

The Third was weaker than 2 but I still liked the mood. IV is in fact more of a glorified DLC (which is what it was about to begin with) yet I didn't dislike it, just that it went too much on the gimmicky aspect with that cheap Matrix style in a constantly dark Steelport (until the end of the game) instead of offering a proper day/night cycle and more stuff to do in the city because most of the interesting stuff is in the side missions...

Gat out of Hell is ironically a much more condensed semi-DLC for SR but I do wish SR 1&2 got a proper remaster on PC...


Ys is quite a special case, the franchise went into at least 5 gameplay style in its history (counting Wanderer as its separate one) and some fans still complained about how Adol was no longer solo in the games since Seven but at least the gameplay is still fast paced action RPG.

I got a bit worried about X being "closer to a souls like" but it's not too far from Lacrimosa's style (albeit with 2 characters than 3).

The Three Weapons/Magic system from Napishtim/Felghana/Origin is still, like many older fans, my favourite although I still enjoy bump gameplay (especially in Chronicles and Dawn).

Shame we'll never see bump making a comeback for obvious reasons and that solo Adol isn't an option by default.

Solo adol will likely never be a thing again, whether people like to admit it or not the party system allows for far better storytelling, not to mention that ys's popularity exploded with ys 8 (which considering it's my unquestionable favorite game of all time, i'm not one to talk).

I'd say the biggest problem with ys is also kind of helped by it's own story design, each game feels different than it's predecessor, even ones that share the same gameplay mechanics like oath in felghana and origin.

 

[Yousef]

@Leon I see thanks for the reply

 

[dropsmegamega]

Now for the hot takes, i think the persona series of games have strayed more and more from it's darker roots with 1 and 2 and became a hijacked series as of 3, making the series less and less interesting to me, to a extent this also applies to the shin megami tensei series as well.

For real, the change between 2 and 3 is so aggressive you'd think atlus sold the IP to some other dev like what happened with Fallout. That being said, it doesn't bother me that much as the Persona 2 narrative was already concluded pretty nicely. But I am not a big fan of life sim and the modern persona games are super long, so they become very tedious to me.

 

[Yousef]

Im personally ok with it. I like persona 3.
But it’s definitely silly Atlus treats them like they’re the same when they’re clearly not

 

[ATenderLad]

Now for the hot takes, i think the persona series of games have strayed more and more from it's darker roots with 1 and 2 and became a hijacked series as of 3, making the series less and less interesting to me, to a extent this also applies to the shin megami tensei series as well.

Some of the change is probably attributable to the time in which they were made and the other stories inspiring the creative teams. From the first game in 1996, to the third in 2006, then 2016 for 5....and eight years and counting with no Persona 6, what the hell.

 

[Boo Man]

Diablo 1 (9/10)
Diablo 2 (10/10)
Diablo 3 (3/10)
Diablo 2 Resurrected (3/10)
Diablo Immortal (0.2/10)
Diablo 4 (/10)

well 1 & 2 qualify as "retro" to me
and they are the only 2 good games in the series

 

[dropsmegamega]

Some of the change is probably attributable to the time in which they were made and the other stories inspiring the creative teams. From the first game in 1996, to the third in 2006, then 2016 for 5....and eight years and counting with no Persona 6, what the hell.

there is persona 6, but its called metaphor refantazio for some reason

Diablo 1 (9/10)
Diablo 2 (10/10)
Diablo 3 (3/10)
Diablo 2 Resurrected (3/10)
Diablo Immortal (0.2/10)
Diablo 4 (/10)

well 1 & 2 qualify as "retro" to me
and they are the only 2 good games in the series

I have yet to play 4, but the only thing that 3 is good for is multiplayer. Whenever I attempted to play single player I would get bored after like half and hour. It also bothers me how samey these games have become. It felt like it was made in the torchlight engine.

 

[DanCalibur]

The first Deus Ex was life-changing experience for me. It taught me just how deep, mature and complex a game could be at a time where most were seen as mindless time wasters. It appealed to my intelligence and didn't shy away from challenging it, either.

... But then came the sequel: Invisible War (AKA Deus Xbox) and it walked back on so many of the things that made the original great that it simply wasn't worth even looking at. Oversimplifying a game just to make it fit on a console was inexcusable, and something they had no reason to do (because the original had to be butchered to enter the PS2, so they knew that it wouldn't work). It has left a permanent bad taste in my mouth.

The saddest part, Invisible War is not even a bad game. The story is still great, the main problem is... well... everything else.

 

[Lee__Kanker]

This issue isn’t quite as pronounced as some people realize since it already has a decent number of examples, and the reasons are usually pretty silly.

Ratchet and clank went on for too long. Believe it or not, There’s actually approximately 8 mainline games that have a linear narrative and are all part of the same story and universe. The series never been actually rebooted (the 2016 game was a tie-in!) but because it’s by the same dev it’s harder to notice the true reality you might be thinking; surely the team has changed, that’s because it did. You bring different people, they’ll have different ideas and slowly the franchise lost its identity. Yes, the games are still good of course, but man.

Jak went through this as well. The weird fact about Jak is that it’s not a trilogy narratively speaking, it’s a quintology. After Jak 3, you play the racing game (yes IT’s important to the plot) then you play lost frontier. And that game’s reputation speaks for itself. Yes, it may seem unfair that critique Jak here, but I’ve already outlined that ratchet changed the team so it’s fair to throw jabs at Jak even if it’s not made by naughty dog anymore. It’s still a Sony ip that went on too long.

As a big god of war fan, it does become challenging to keep track of all the games. The truth is, there’s NINE mainline games. There’s the trilogy, the psp dualogy, ascension, the two ps4 games and the expansion to ragnarock which is really really important to the lore. This is overwhelming even for me. I stopped keeping track after ascension which I still like.

Megaman X is almost a textbook examples of this. Holy cow.

Mmmmm this is a somewhat spicy take but kingdom hearts has this issue too.

Ratchet and Clank really got ruined by the new insomniac

Remember when all the aliens were wrinkly ugly and crass like a 00s dreamworks movie?
Remember when Ratchet was pissed of teenager instead of some pansy cutesy nerd?
Remember when they didnt reuse Dr Nefarius over and over?
Remember when the whole appeal of the story was that these two nobodies, some jockish mechanic and a tiny robot, became saviours of the universe and even upstaged the popular savior of the universe (Quark) now they BOTH just happen to be the last of their kind and the chosen king of a magical race

I really hate how they made him way cuter and more cat like

Same from Angela being a cheesy alien bimbo klutz to a cutesy tumblr oc (for the younger readers who dont know that that is ask your dad); its just a completly different style

Up your arsenal especially had like Ratchet being resentful and jealous of Clank and bitter through most of the game, thats so something new ratchet wouldnt do, and remember how most of the sidequests were him going "Ugh I gotta help this loser or he wont let me pass, whatever I did take the thing"

Deadlocked\Gladiator especially were like as angsty and the series got with the premise and especially that sick armor

Also from the ps3 onwards they just keep pretending stuff didnt happen
Whatever happened to the Starship Phoenix? Whatever happened to Sasha? Al? How about Angela?

 

[dropsmegamega]

Ratchet and Clank really got ruined by the new insomniac

They should have closed the series with Deadlocked tbh the new games are alright gameplay-wise, but should have been their own thing since they basically retconned everything

 

[ShinnAsukaYESTaylorSwiftNO]

Pokémon started to jump the shark with Gen 7 imo. They should've just made one more mainline game for Gen 6 in the form of Pokémon Z, let Ash win the Kalos League, and just ended the franchise there instead.

 

[RageBurner]

Pokémon started to jump the shark with Gen 7 imo. They should've just made one more mainline game for Gen 6 in the form of Pokémon Z, let Ash win the Kalos League, and just ended the franchise there instead.

For me itcwas much earlier. By gen 5 I was already not feeling it anymore. Tye fact I love gen 6 is strange even for me, but past that, no way.

 

[ReaverV]

For me it's Star Ocean, Star Ocean 1, banger of a game. Star Ocean 2, one of my favourite RPGs of all time to the point where I went out of my way to grab a physical copy of the original PSX release. Star Ocean 3, not quite as good as 2 but was still enjoyable plot wise till the end. Then we get to The Last Hope and it all goes downhill from there, character design felt bland, the game was a prequel and due to 3's plot twist lacked impact, I don't remember much of the 5 one and I haven't touched 6 yet but I don't think I will anytime soon either

 

[Ikagura]

Same from Angela being a cheesy alien bimbo klutz to a cutesy tumblr oc (for the younger readers who don't know that that is ask your dad); its just a completely different style.

Rivet, despite being from a different dimension according to the story (I haven't played the game so I'm not entirely sure) really feels like an OC. She has a mechanical arm and a completely different colour for some reasons (which is a weird trend for modern character, making them having a prosthetic).

And to some she was a trans icon because apparently female lombaxes lack a tail (yet ignore that she's from a different dimension so she may not follow the same rule) but eh, that's Internet.



I do agree that they softened the design a bit too much, his PS2 one looked clearly like a cartoon whereas the other looks like they want to sell plushies.

 

[Lee__Kanker]

Rivet, despite being from a different dimension according to the story (I haven't played the game so I'm not entirely sure) really feels like an OC. She has a mechanical arm and a completely different colour for some reasons (which is a weird trend for modern character, making them having a prosthetic).

And to some she was a trans icon because apparently female lombaxes lack a tail (yet ignore that she's from a different dimension so she may not follow the same rule) but eh, that's Internet.



I do agree that they softened the design a bit too much, his PS2 one looked clearly like a cartoon whereas the other looks like they want to sell plushies.

Also the goggles the scarf the piercings the fluff that looks like that one haircut..

Look at how dopey qwark used to look, plus the visible muscles and collar bone making the designs way more "gross"

Facial expressions like these are just not a thing anymore

Ratchet's weird giant hands with those wrinkly gloves..

Remember when in Deadlocked the show host looked at him and went "He doesnt look like much, this wont take long folks!" and he angrily and cocklily went "We'll see about that.." like he was gonna disintegrate everything?
He also used to have a bit of qwark into him bc he wanted to be seen as a big famous and beloved hero but he was always underappreciated and ignored because of his looks

Also the whole cinematography for the cutscenes...it used to be so dynamic like a cartoon, now its just bland netflix crap. Lots of standing still and shot-reverse shot

Remember when the planets and bosses used to be threaning?? I remember courtney gears' planet was so neat

Bonus

 

[Ikagura]

Also the goggles the scarf the piercings the fluff that looks like that one haircut..

Makes me wonder who designed her (she's even coloured differently to make her look more "unique").

Even in the Crash series they brought back Tawna with a radically different design.

Look at how dopey qwark used to look, plus the visible muscles and collar bone making the designs way more "gross"

He looks pretty much like a caricature of Buzz Lightyear in some way (with some Zap Brannigan personality of being full of himself).

Actually I really like that kind of character. I'll add Captain Stern from Heavy Metal to the list:

 

[Lee__Kanker]

Makes me wonder who designed her (she's even coloured differently to make her look more "unique").

Even in the Crash series they brought back Tawna with a radically different design.


He looks pretty much like a caricature of Buzz Lightyear in some way (with some Zap Brannigan personality of being full of himself).

Actually I really like that kind of character. I'll add Captain Stern from Heavy Metal to the list:
View attachment 4867

I wont get too off topic but she yelled at people in the office until they changed her design, I'll tell you more on your profile

I didnt mind with Tawna that much bc they at least had her be an alternate universe version instead of going "What do you mean? Shes ALWAYS looked like that " and gave her unique moves; thoughI course I still wouldve vastly preferred the normal Tawna

I was more bothered by how Sassy they made Coco
And I HATE what they did to my Nina Cortex since tag team racing <\3
She has an overpowered little girl who loves cute critters so she was given metal robotic gloves to prevent that, thats so cute and funny at the same time. Plus how she skips around hehe and her unchanging facial expression and whimsicalmattitude klike being hapy to be used as a snowboard by evil crash..

She was such a unique character why change it to be another bratty girlboss??
Paul Gardner was the man behind her personality and he only worked on twinsanity, thats why she was changed btw

 

[dropsmegamega]

I was more bothered by how Sassy they made Coco
And I HATE what they did to my Nina Cortex since tag team racing <\3
She has an overpowered little girl who loves cute critters so she was given metal robotic gloves to prevent that, thats so cute and funny at the same time. Plus how she skips around hehe and her unchanging facial expression and whimsicalmattitude klike being hapy to be used as a snowboard by evil crash..

She was such a unique character why change it to be another bratty girlboss??
Paul Gardner was the man behind her personality and he only worked on twinsanity, thats why she was changed btw

Talking about sequel decay, are the ps2 crash games worth playing? I never bothered trying then as I heard they were mediocre at best and developed by different studios, same for the spyro ones.

 

[Lee__Kanker]

Talking about sequel decay, are the ps2 crash games worth playing? I never bothered trying then as I heard they were mediocre at best and developed by different studios, same for the spyro ones.

Twinsanity is one of my favorite games alongside 3, I adore what it did with the characters how it looks and its music; but the gameplay is nothing special (although there are some cool things like playing as cortex) and its clearly unfinished (at least two worlds were cut and they even joke about it in game). Its got a lot of heart and you can tell

The rest is crap

Spyro a hero's tale I never bothered with after 2 levels years ago