Sequel decay

[RageBurner]

Sometimes a game becomes an explosive success and this almost always guarantees sequels - it becomes a franchise.
That said, for a myriad of reasons (company interference, trend compliance, lead changes), sequels sometimes become... different.

"Better" and "worse" are not quantifiable, objective metrics, so it's all very relative. The way changes are weighted depends very heavily on something highly personal - expectation.

I'll start the conversation with a personal example, then: Parasite Eve.

This was the third RPG I played on the PS1, after FF7 and Xenogears, and I absolutely loved everything about it. You had an intriguing story, a sexy, strong and independent female protagonist, incredible music and very cool and fresh systems to back it all up. It's a game that really stuck with me and that I hold very dearly, along with the other two I mentioned above.

Then came... Parasite Eve 2. My disappointment was unsurmountable: it had become something else, something I couldn't care less about - a second fiddle Resident Evil (I am no RE fan, never have been). To me, everything that had been attractive, interesting and fresh about PE had been discarded in a foolish attempt to chase after Capcom's survival horror behemoth and it failed spectacularly.

I don't even need to say that Third Birthday made things even worse, so I won't waste anyone's time by ruminating on all the bullet points that make this "sequel" terrible.

So, I'd like to hear you guy's thoughts regarding similar experiences!

 

[fake-kun]

Basically all Star Fox games after 64, except Star Fox 2, suffer from this.

 

[Waffles]

The first Deus Ex was life-changing experience for me. It taught me just how deep, mature and complex a game could be at a time where most were seen as mindless time wasters. It appealed to my intelligence and didn't shy away from challenging it, either.

... But then came the sequel: Invisible War (AKA Deus Xbox) and it walked back on so many of the things that made the original great that it simply wasn't worth even looking at. Oversimplifying a game just to make it fit on a console was inexcusable, and something they had no reason to do (because the original had to be butchered to enter the PS2, so they knew that it wouldn't work). It has left a permanent bad taste in my mouth.

 

[Ikagura]

Basically all Star Fox games after 64, except Star Fox 2, suffer from this.

Assault tried to add a new antagonist but it shows that Nintendo didn't know what to do.

 

[RageBurner]

The first Deus Ex was life-changing experience for me. It taught me just how deep, mature and complex a game could be at a time where most were seen as mindless time wasters. It appealed to my intelligence and didn't shy away from challenging it, either.

... But then came the sequel: Invisible War (AKA Deus Xbox) and it walked back on so many of the things that made the original great that it simply wasn't worth even looking at. Oversimplifying a game just to make it fit on a console was inexcusable, and something they had no excuse to do (because the original had to be butchered to enter the PS2, so they knew that it wouldn't work). It has left a permanent bad taste in my mouth.

I've yet to try Deus-Ex. So I should stick to the original, huh?

 

[Yousef]

This issue isn’t quite as pronounced as some people realize since it already has a decent number of examples, and the reasons are usually pretty silly.

Ratchet and clank went on for too long. Believe it or not, There’s actually approximately 8 mainline games that have a linear narrative and are all part of the same story and universe. The series never been actually rebooted (the 2016 game was a tie-in!) but because it’s by the same dev it’s harder to notice the true reality you might be thinking; surely the team has changed, that’s because it did. You bring different people, they’ll have different ideas and slowly the franchise lost its identity. Yes, the games are still good of course, but man.

Jak went through this as well. The weird fact about Jak is that it’s not a trilogy narratively speaking, it’s a quintology. After Jak 3, you play the racing game (yes IT’s important to the plot) then you play lost frontier. And that game’s reputation speaks for itself. Yes, it may seem unfair that critique Jak here, but I’ve already outlined that ratchet changed the team so it’s fair to throw jabs at Jak even if it’s not made by naughty dog anymore. It’s still a Sony ip that went on too long.

As a big god of war fan, it does become challenging to keep track of all the games. The truth is, there’s NINE mainline games. There’s the trilogy, the psp dualogy, ascension, the two ps4 games and the expansion to ragnarock which is really really important to the lore. This is overwhelming even for me. I stopped keeping track after ascension which I still like.

Megaman X is almost a textbook examples of this. Holy cow.

Mmmmm this is a somewhat spicy take but kingdom hearts has this issue too.

 

[Tounushi]

The first Deus Ex was life-changing experience for me. It taught me just how deep, mature and complex a game could be at a time where most were seen as mindless time wasters. It appealed to my intelligence and didn't shy away from challenging it, either.

... But then came the sequel: Invisible War (AKA Deus Xbox) and it walked back on so many of the things that made the original great that it simply wasn't worth even looking at. Oversimplifying a game just to make it fit on a console was inexcusable, and something they had no reason to do (because the original had to be butchered to enter the PS2, so they knew that it wouldn't work). It has left a permanent bad taste in my mouth.

You know how you go to your weekend and get back to work and you're kinda "How do I do my job, again?" I get the feeling a lot of sequels are the subject of that. The studio goes through a heavy crunch to get the game done and squeeze out their vision and they kinda eject all the ideas they had about it and don't know what they're doing when they do the sequel.
Sometimes a sequel was never in the books and they have to build the bridge as they're walking along.

Post automatically merged: Dec 7, 2024

I've yet to try Deus-Ex. So I should stick to the original, huh?

Human Revolution was good as well, and it's an alright prequel.

 

[Cu-Neo]

I've yet to try Deus-Ex. So I should stick to the original, huh?

Play the first and Human revolution those are the best

 

[Waffles]

You know how you go to your weekend and get back to work and you're kinda "How do I do my job, again?" I get the feeling a lot of sequels are the subject of that. The studio goes through a heavy crunch to get the game done and squeeze out their vision and they kinda eject all the ideas they had about it and don't know what they're doing when they do the sequel.
Sometimes a sequel was never in the books and they have to build the bridge as they're walking along.

You know what? That's beautiful. You totally hit the nail on the head with that.

I'd like to hear what the team was put through when it came to making this one, because it's truly baffling.

 

[ATenderLad]

I imagine if I were more knowledgeable about the making of most games, like who contributed what to say, Parasite Eve to use the above example, a lot of the time this could be attributed to the individual creatives not being part of the franchise going forward. Like Steven Spielberg behind the camera for Indiana Jones, I imagine what we value most in a game/story/experience isn't the IP, the fictional characters, or what have you, but the choices that interesting people made to convey ideas to us.

...well, that or success demanded a sequel that no one really had any passion for, but most of the examples I can think of are movies and I don't want to veer more off-topic.

 

[Cu-Neo]

This Happened to me with Dragon Age. The first game is one of my favorite RPG of all time. Then I played 2 altough that game is very incomplete I still liked the characters (merrill is awesome) and the combat. Then Inquisition came I didn't liked the changes that they did for example making the game basically a fetch quest in a empty open area and the changes to the artstyle

 

[Gorse]

The most immediate example that comes to mind is Deception III: Dark Delusion. Despite being the most technically-advanced game of the original PS1 trilogy, it's a downgrade in almost every way from Deception 2 – no significantly-new traps are added, levels go on for waaaaay too long with enemies that have far more health than they should, the characters are all boring idiots, and the general story is the most pointless, inane nonsense ever.

It's not so much a full sequel as it is a sub-mediocre expansion pack, and as someone who loves the first two Deception games dearly, I was really let down by it.

 

[dropsmegamega]

I think the Longest Journey. The second game, Dreamfall: TLJ is, despite very different, an interesting and fairly experimental game at the end of the day. But Dreamfall Chapters is just such a lame, uninspired ending to the trilogy. It's like they just gave up and copied whatever was popular at the time. It's my biggest disappointment really.

Another one that comes to mind is Shin Megami Tensei series, it discarded most of its horror and 90s cyberpunk influences in favor of super sentai and more modern anime style that isn't really my thing. The series have also been suffering of pokemonization in gameplay and I just don't feel this 'catch 'em all' is the way to go, but its just too popular for then to do anything else.

Then came... Parasite Eve 2. My disappointment was unsurmountable: it had become something else, something I couldn't care less about - a second fiddle Resident Evil (I am no RE fan, never have been). To me, everything that had been attractive, interesting and fresh about PE had been discarded in a foolish attempt to chase after Capcom's survival horror behemoth and it failed spectacularly.

I agree with this 100%. I couldn't bother playing it. Maybe if they changed the tank controls I would give it a second chance, but even then the tone was so different.

This Happened to me with Dragon Age. The first game is one of my favorite RPG of all time. Then I played 2 altough that game is very incomplete I still liked the characters (merrill is awesome) and the combat. Then Inquisition came I didn't liked the changes that they did for example making the game basically a fetch quest in a empty open area and the changes to the artstyle

This but honestly I hated 2 too. The darkspawn redesign and the enemies just kinda spawning from the sky like power rangers monsters. The Flemeth redesign. Anders personality. The copy pasted places and the city npcs never saying anything different for the whole game. I blame EA.

 

[Bakuma1997]

Since saying Pokemon would be beating a dead horse, i will go for Paper Mario, original trilogy is a classic (Currently playing TTYD64) and while i recognize Super's gamelay and story are flawed, they are hardly bad like the opinion at the time make it believe, by contrast, Sticker Star made something as simple as CHOOSING AN ATTACK a chore, less memorable or complex story and shorter levels, Color Splash felt even lamer (The final dungeon is merely some battle free rooms before the final boss), Origami King... actually havent' played it, vbut the gameplay of battles makes it look overtly complex, maybe if i play it some sunny day i will form a opinion

 

[RageBurner]

Another one that comes to mind is Shin Megami Tensei series, it discarded most of its horror and 90s cyberpunk influences in favor of super sentai and more modern anime style that isn't really my thing. The series have also been suffering of pokemonization in gameplay and I just don't feel this 'catch 'em all' is the way to go, but its just too popular for then to do anything else.

I feel SMT4 suffered from this more than any other. While 5 has issues, I feel it was a return to form in several areas. Strange Journey, 1, 2 and 3 are stronger entries, though.

 

[dropsmegamega]

I feel SMT4 suffered from this more than any other. While 5 has issues, I feel it was a return to form in several areas. Strange Journey, 1, 2 and 3 are stronger entries, though.

SMT4 started the decay, but I'd argue Apocalypse and SJ Redux cemented it. I played very little of og 5, but between its narrative and presentation choices, strange character design decisions and heavy unreal engine vibes TM I wasn't impressed. That being said maybe I am being too harsh on it, I definitely have to try Vengeance one of these days.

 

[RageBurner]

SMT4 started the decay, but I'd argue Apocalypse and SJ Redux cemented it. I played very little of og 5, but between its narrative and presentation choices, strange character design decisions and heavy unreal engine vibes TM I wasn't impressed. That being said maybe I am being too harsh on it, I definitely have to try Vengeance one of these days.

The art style shift in SJR did it no favors, but at least the core gameplay was kept intact. The fact demon designs changed in 4/A also had a big effect on the fact I like it quite a bit less, even if they are mechanically sound.

 

[Yousef]

I probably can’t do polls on a comment but I’ll ask this.
Do The following series series have sequel decay? Yay or nay?

1. Rayman
2. Donkey Kong
3. Kirby
4. Dragon quest
5. Shantae
6. Tales of
7. Star ocean
8. Saints row
9. Monster hunter

Curious what people think

 

[spacebear]

The F.E.A.R franchise is a prime example of this. First game is one of the greatest shooters ever made along with being a technical powerhouse. Extraction Point was a fun expansion then it takes an immediate nosedive that keeps getting worse and worse.

 

[Yousef]

The F.E.A.R franchise is a prime example of this. First game is one of the greatest shooters ever made along with being a technical powerhouse. Extraction Point was a fun expansion then it takes an immediate nosedive that keeps getting worse and worse.

True. Haven’t finished 2 yet. It was fine… but too mediocre. But I feel maybe I’ll be nicer on it when I come back. The bullet time is a mechanic I love in general so I’m not against having it in a mediocre game if it means having it at all. Idk if I’ll ever play 3. I try to avoid the “bad game = i shouldn’t play it” mentality but it doesn’t look like a particularly interesting game either.

 

[dropsmegamega]

The art style shift in SJR did it no favors, but at least the core gameplay was kept intact. The fact demon designs changed in 4/A also had a big effect on the fact I like it quite a bit less, even if they are mechanically sound.

What do you consider the core gameplay of SMT? Because several elements that were essential to me have been streamlined so much to the point they became inexistent. For example all the risk and resource management when venturing in big dungeons was completely trivialized thanks to ""QoL"" features like saving anywhere. I don't know what was the point of that final dungeon in Apocalypse because they literally give you a warp every 2 rooms. Bore the player to death?

I probably can’t do polls on a comment but I’ll ask this.
Do The following series series have sequel decay? Yay or nay?

1. Rayman
2. Donkey Kong
3. Kirby
4. Dragon quest
5. Shantae
6. Tales of
7. Star ocean
8. Saints row
9. Monster hunter

Curious what people think

Rayman certainly not. How can it decay if its already dead?? Unless you mean the mobile runner games, then yes.
For Shantae and Kirby my vote is Yes.

 

[owari_da]

Is this Sonic the hedgehog thread?

 

[spacebear]

True. Haven’t finished 2 yet. It was fine… but too mediocre. But I feel maybe I’ll be nicer on it when I come back. The bullet time is a mechanic I love in general so I’m not against having it in a mediocre game if it means having it at all. Idk if I’ll ever play 3. I try to avoid the “bad game = i shouldn’t play it” mentality but it doesn’t look like a particularly interesting game either.

Same here. Glad I did cause I've found some favorites over the years and looking back on older game reviews like EGM or X-Play they had some whack opinions. Anyway if you're itching for a game similar to the first F.E.A.R after playing the sequels I highly recommend Trepang 2.

 

[Yousef]

Is this Sonic the hedgehog thread?

Post automatically merged: Dec 9, 2024

Same here. Glad I did cause I've found some favorites over the years and looking back on older game reviews like EGM or X-Play they had some whack opinions. Anyway if you're itching for a game similar to the first F.E.A.R after playing the sequels I highly recommend Trepang 2.

Awesome. Flew under my radar.

 

[ATenderLad]

I probably can’t do polls on a comment but I’ll ask this.
Do The following series series have sequel decay? Yay or nay?

1. Rayman
2. Donkey Kong
3. Kirby
4. Dragon quest
5. Shantae
6. Tales of
7. Star ocean
8. Saints row
9. Monster hunter

Curious what people think

1. Just four games, the last one over a decade ago. I think they all hold up still, but I'm not sure there will ever be another one.
2. Nah, each one is still a lot of fun.
3. The most recent game was a delight.
4. Not sure there's any that people hate, and the last one was quite a hit.
5. Still good, and bless 'em for keeping to crisp looking 2D.
6. I'm not sure these have ever been that good? They make likeable characters in some installments, but the 3D battle system has always been awkward and they've never really improved it.
7. Definitely suffered after the first couple games, the most recent game has some fun movement mechanics but it felt dated as hell, otherwise. The HD remasters of the original games aren't bad though.
8. Peaked gloriously with Saints Row 4, best GTA style game ever made, including the actual GTA series. I don't think they have anywhere else to go after that, probably why the last one was a snooze.
9. Hard No, last two have brought wild success to the series, and deservedly so. Fingers crossed for Wilds!