Games as art

[raveci]

This separation of medium and product feels unclear and ingenuine. I might be misinterpreting you (and for that I must apologise) but following this logic suggests that, for example, an opera could not be considered 'art' - only medium? Like decoration on a cup, art can be found in the composition of its music; the language of its lyrics; its stage direction; acting; vocal performances; costuming; make-up - but not in the opera as an entity of its own - not in the medium? the sum of its parts? the gesamtkunstwerk?

My point is ask people who make operas, I don't know enough to comment on that really. I've heard operatic singers are a special "breed" so maybe that's what makes the art form distinct from say miscall theater. Making cutlery however I'm pretty sure is not considered a distinct form of art by anyone who does it, even if it's their particular niche as an artist.

 

[Lee__Kanker]

Who cares
Roger Ebert isn't my god

 

[Yousef]

Who cares
Roger Ebert isn't my god

He also literally died before like, half the games we’re thinking about were even conceived. His opinion is beyond outdated.

 

[Lee__Kanker]

He also literally died before like, half the games we’re thinking about were even conceived. His opinion is beyond outdated.

In general I dont get why ppl revear him, Im not american but it seems like its just cause he was a celebrity?

 

[Gorse]

In general I dont get why ppl revear him, Im not american but it seems like its just cause he was a celebrity?

He was the most prominent film critic of the later 20th century, which was the golden age of American cinema, and essentially the only art critic that most Anglophones can name. For better or worse, he was film criticism for anyone who wasn’t a diehard movie buff.

I thought his show, At The Movies, was just OK. Siskel, his co-presenter, missed the point of a lot of non-mainstream films. (And Roeper, Siskel’s replacement, was just a poor critic with uninteresting, probably-contrarian arguments.) It was a very East Coast pseudo-intellectual show, but a lot of people liked their dynamic, and it could occasionally get entertaining when they’d fight or joke around.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

In general I dont get why ppl revear him, Im not american but it seems like its just cause he was a celebrity?

He was a good writer for a prestigious American newspaper and he knew a lot about movies. Unfortunately, he came from the generation where "video games" were seen as pastimes and time wasters. To him video games were like pong and pinball, which would seem preposterous to compare them to film.

 

[Yousef]

In general I dont get why ppl revear him, Im not american but it seems like its just cause he was a celebrity?

Well I can actually give context there. It actually makes a lot more sense once I like, googled him for two seconds.

He was part of a popular tv show called “siskel and elbert”, I think it was a movie reviewing show? They were sooorta a comedy duo. I never watched it, saw random clips and the show was decently entertaining as a show. I think being a tv celeb is more than enough for people think about worshiping you. I’ve no attachment to this tv show so I don’t really care.

Post automatically merged: Jan 8, 2025

He was a good writer for a prestigious American newspaper and he knew a lot about movies. Unfortunately, he came from the generation where "video games" were seen as pastimes and time wasters. To him video games were like pong and pinball, which would seem preposterous to compare them to film.

This too ?

Post automatically merged: Jan 8, 2025

He was the most prominent film critic of the later 20th century, which was the golden age of American cinema, and essentially the only art critic that most Anglophones can name. For better or worse, he was film criticism for anyone who wasn’t a diehard movie buff.

I thought his show, At The Movies, was just OK. Siskel, his co-presenter, missed the point of a lot of non-mainstream films. (And Roeper, Siskel’s replacement, was just a poor critic with uninteresting, probably-contrarian arguments.) It was a very East Coast pseudo-intellectual show, but a lot of people liked their dynamic, and it could occasionally get entertaining when they’d fight or joke around.

And this as Well
Man I don’t even need to type when Gorse is around. Sit back, sip a latte and he’ll magically type out minute thought in my head verbatim. Telepathic clones are the future.

 

[SkunkyBeaumont]

 

[Lee__Kanker]

Well I can actually give context there. It actually makes a lot more sense once I like, googled him for two seconds.
View attachment 9564
He was part of a popular tv show called “siskel and elbert”, I think it was a movie reviewing show? They were sooorta a comedy duo. I never watched it, saw random clips and the show was decently entertaining as a show. I think being a tv celeb is more than enough for people think about worshiping you. I’ve no attachment to this tv show so I don’t really care.

Post automatically merged: Jan 8, 2025

This too ?

Post automatically merged: Jan 8, 2025

And this as Well
Man I don’t even need to type when Gorse is around. Sit back, sip a latte and he’ll magically type out minute thought in my head verbatim. Telepathic clones are the future.
View attachment 9565

I see, so he was the face of movie critics; I only know him as the guy from The Critic and the Simpsons

I checked some of his reviews after my finding out who every simpsons cameo was but I didnt get he was that big. From the handful of vids I saw on yt he really had a pc hateboner for horror movies calling them "video nasties" and sexist (like his review of evil dead) and they gave a mixed review to full metal jacket and said the voice for the joker in mask of the phantasm wasn't very good (*metal gear sound effect*) and he said Jumanji was nothing but special effects. Bah.

But whats that got to do with videogames? No matter how much Neil Druckman tries games and movies are two different things, I dont think Mr Ebert can tell me w how Siren ingeniously mixes Tower of Druaga's cryptic way of preogressing level and arcade pacing + a submarine game with survival horror while also incorporating that with how you find out about the story

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Roger Ebert. He was one of the first American mainstream critics to praise the artistic merit of anime and his reviews of Akira, Ghost in the Shell and Studio Ghibli movies were extremely effusive in praise. Yeah he didn't get video games, but it really was a emerging medium in the early-mid 1990's. No one could've foreseen where video games would go unless you were playing them.

 

[Yousef]

I see, so he was the face of movie critics; I only know him as the guy from The Critic and the Simpsons

I checked some of his reviews after my finding out who every simpsons cameo was but I didnt get he was that big. From the handful of vids I saw on yt he really had a pc hateboner for horror movies calling them "video nasties" and sexist (like his review of evil dead) and they gave a mixed review to full metal jacket and said the voice for the joker in mask of the phantasm wasn't very good (*metal gear sound effect*) and he said Jumanji was nothing but special effects. Bah.

But whats that got to do with videogames? No matter how much Neil Druckman tries games and movies are two different things, I dont think Mr Ebert can tell me why you can tell me how Siren ingeniously mixes Tower of Druaga's cryptic way of preogressing level and arcade pacing + a submarine game with survival horror while also incorporating that with how you find out about the story

Robert and Niel druckman, if they met, would the best of friends or the worst of enemies. No in between.

 

[Lee__Kanker]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Roger Ebert. He was one of the first American mainstream critics to praise the artistic merit of anime and his reviews of Akira, Ghost in the Shell and Studio Ghibli movies were extremely effusive in praise. Yeah he didn't get video games, but it really was a emerging medium in the early-mid 1990's. No one could've foreseen where video games would go unless you were playing them.

That's neat, but in europe anime had been mainstream since the 70s so someone praising it on tv doesnt sound revolutionary to me. Dismissing a whole medium just cause it's recent sounds so close minded, and again even if he was the biggest movie critic he's not a game critic so why care

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

That's neat, but in europe anime had been mainstream since the 70s so someone praising it on tv doesnt sound revolutionary to me. Dismissing a whole medium just cause it's recent sounds so close minded, and again even if he was the biggest movie critic he's not a game critic so why care

That's fair. He should not have been commenting on video games since he doesn't play them. However, that was the prevailing opinion of people from his generation: Video games were for wastrels who spent too much time at arcades.

 

[dropsmegamega]

Well Roger Ebert praised Cosmology of Kyoto so he is ok in my book

 

[Gorse]

Well Roger Ebert praised Cosmology of Kyoto so he is ok in my book

And he liked Eastern Mind: The Lost Souls of Tong-nou! He couldn't have been all bad.

 

[SkunkyBeaumont]

To be fair, I don't think Roger Ebert was aware of Video Games passed Pac-Man at all, and had no idea narrative games existed. There was this push back from old media guys to anything tech oriented. It was warranted though, seeing as the technology they were pushing back against wound up putting them out business, or at least drastically changing said business to something they don't understand anymore.

 

[Ikagura]

I kinda missed a lot of the topic so I'm confused.

I want to add this trailer to further my point about the subject

Sure, it's fundamentally still the same computer game from the 1984 with particles and new songs yet the music is still going on with the player's action, I think that Mizuguchi's synaesthesia in his games is a sign that some game designers want to make games more than just pressing some button, seeing flashes on a screen with beep boop sounds like many people outside of gaming are thinking when we're speaking of video games (or so it was for quite a while).

Should art give a message or else it isn't art? Should it be transformative?

When you think about it videos using game machinimas are also derivative art (using a video game for a different intent from the original).

 

[moonbits]

They are great, I love videogames but they are a hard sell as art for me.

 

[χKai]

I'm glad other people see this for what it really is, an art form, a medium like any television series or novel, and not as if all games are like GTA, Manhunt and Postal 2.

 

[Yousef]

I'm glad other people see this for what it really is, an art form, a medium like any television series or novel, and not as if all games are like GTA, Manhunt and Postal 2.

Funny you mention those. I think 2 of those 3 are Artistic in my eyes (<— extremely biased R* fan)

 

[Ikagura]

I'm glad other people see this for what it really is, an art form, a medium like any television series or novel, and not as if all games are like GTA, Manhunt and Postal 2.

What if manhunt is actually art as in "showing violence for a show to make a comment through satire" kind of art?

I'd also add Distance, a neat racing game that tells a story

 

[Yousef]

What if manhunt is actually art as in "showing violence for a show to make a comment through satire" kind of art?

That’s what I alluded to. Appreciate putting it in words ?. I’m bad at that LOL.

 

[χKai]

What if manhunt is actually art as in "showing violence for a show to make a comment through satire" kind of art?

I'd also add Distance, a neat racing game that tells a story

No that's a really good way of putting it.
What would be a better example of the mindless, droning violent type of game that MADD mothers are worried about turning everyone into zombies?

 

[SkunkyBeaumont]

No that's a really good way of putting it.
What would be a better example of the mindless, droning violent type of game that MADD mothers are worried about turning everyone into zombies?

You mean YouTube Shorts?

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

The satire in GTA 3/4 is on point. Anyone who doubts the game is a satire of American culture should listen to the radio stations more closely.