Game franchises that have regressed

[Ikagura Ikagura]

I'm having a hard time thinking of a franchise that has not regressed in some capacity tbh.

Kirby thanks to Forgotten Land and Return to Dreamland Deluxe.

Donkey Kong with Tropical Freeze and the upcoming Bananza (hopefully).

Mario Bros thanks to Wonders.

 

[moonbits]

Mario Bros thanks to Wonders.

*New Super Mario Brothers teleports behind you*
Nothing personal, kid..

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

*New Super Mario Brothers teleports behind you*
Nothing personal, kid..

I'm talking about the latest entry.

Regressed means about the last game of a series becoming worse.

Also NSMB on the DS was an actually good game that improved upon the side scroller formula we haven't seen any original game since Mario Land 2.

I understand the nostalgia for Land 1 and 2 but they're also short games and I think that the second one is a bit too easy as well.

 

[Sunnyside]

Kirby thanks to Forgotten Land and Return to Dreamland Deluxe.

Donkey Kong with Tropical Freeze and the upcoming Bananza (hopefully).

Mario Bros thanks to Wonders.

All solid picks there.

 

[dropsmegamega]

Kirby thanks to Forgotten Land and Return to Dreamland Deluxe.

Donkey Kong with Tropical Freeze and the upcoming Bananza (hopefully).

Mario Bros thanks to Wonders.

seriously? none of these are particularly interesting, let alone revolutionary as these series once were.

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

Seriously? None of these are particularly interesting, let alone revolutionary as these series once were.

Not being revolutionary doesn't mean that these franchises have regressed. You can still make newer games that don't reinvent the wheel.

But even then Kirby and the Forgotten Land is the first fully-fledged, bigger scope 3D entry that isn't a smaller scaled nor a spin-off like Air Ride, Blowout Blast nor Battle Royale.

Then again what was the revolutionary game in the Kirby franchise before? Maybe Superstar? It was two decades ago and while it was a great 16-bits platformer it didn't revolutionise the genre. Return to Dreamland? It was the first major home console game since Kirby 64 but yet again it improved upon Superstar's formula while adding its own flair but nothing that was groundbreaking for the platformer genre.

I'd even argue that the only revolutionary thing about Donkey Kong Country was the pre-rendered Silicon Graphics 3D but aside from that it only has built upon the Mario Bros series. Maybe the heavier emphasis on collectathon compared to other platformers of its time may be an innovation but then again I think Super Mario 64 and later Banjo & Kazooie did it much better.

I would agree about Mario Bros as a whole but I'd argue that the most revolutionary game was the very first Super Mario Bros game for platformers in general and that each subsequent game has built upon it. Wonders still feels much more original and unique, almost like Mario World was back then compared to every other game since (not counting the Land games).

 

[dropsmegamega]

Not being revolutionary doesn't mean that these franchises have regressed. You can still make newer games that don't reinvent the wheel.

But even then Kirby and the Forgotten Land is the first fully-fledged, bigger scope 3D entry that isn't a smaller scaled nor a spin-off like Air Ride, Blowout Blast nor Battle Royale.

Then again what was the revolutionary game in the Kirby franchise before? Maybe Superstar? It was two decades ago and while it was a great 16-bits platformer it didn't revolutionise the genre. Return to Dreamland? It was the first major home console game since Kirby 64 but yet again it improved upon Superstar's formula while adding its own flair but nothing that was groundbreaking for the platformer genre.

I'd even argue that the only revolutionary thing about Donkey Kong Country was the pre-rendered Silicon Graphics 3D but aside from that it only has built upon the Mario Bros series. Maybe the heavier emphasis on collectathon compared to other platformers of its time may be an innovation but then again I think Super Mario 64 and later Banjo & Kazooie did it much better.

I would agree about Mario Bros as a whole but I'd argue that the most revolutionary game was the very first Super Mario Bros game for platformers in general and that each subsequent game has built upon it. Wonders still feels much more original and unique, almost like Mario World was back then compared to every other game since (not counting the Land games).

Maybe revolutionary was an exaggeration, but I would argue that series that used to be creative but got stale for decades would constitute regression, yes. Like Forgotten Land is indeed ambitious specifically in the context of modern kirby, but compared to other 3d platformers is nowhere as impressive as what Super Star was compared to other 16 bit platformers. I feel similarly about the others.

 

[Potapota]

I would argue that all of the mainline kirby games are pretty basic platformers at the end of the day and forgotten land doesn't really change that all that much. It's still a pretty decent platformer. Far from being "regressed" at least. I had fun with it. Same with super mario wonder.
Nintendo has a pretty good track record with their games overall imho.

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

Maybe revolutionary was an exaggeration, but I would argue that series that used to be creative but got stale for decades would constitute regression, yes. Like Forgotten Land is indeed ambitious specifically in the context of modern kirby, but compared to other 3d platformers is nowhere as impressive as what Super Star was compared to other 16 bit platformers. I feel similarly about the others.

I'd still argue that Return to Dreamland was the breath of fresh air the franchise needed after a full decade of handheld only spin-offs, remakes and games not developed by HAL themselves.

I still like some of them like Canvas Curse for bringing the Soul Boss trend to the series and Superstar Ultra for having many more side games added to it but in the same way I regret that the Gamecube Kirby game got cancelled.

Kirby is primarily a handheld franchise (it even started on the Gameboy after all) so I understand why they focused mostly on it (that's also why the 3DS had more Kirby games overall).

On a side note I think that Planet Robobot is up there with Superstar as one of the best entries in the franchise, both pushing it forward while also keeping its roots.

The playerbase of the Kirby franchise still agrees that RTDL is one of the best entries in the entire saga as well (even if I've discovered it quite late I do agree despite the quality of life the subsequent games have added).

I wouldn't say it got stale for decades, only one for the 00's.

I would argue that all of the mainline kirby games are pretty basic platformers at the end of the day and forgotten land doesn't really change that all that much. It's still a pretty decent platformer. Far from being "regressed" at least. I had fun with it. Same with super mario wonder.
Nintendo has a pretty good track record with their games overall imho.

Wasn't it seen as one of the best selling game and almost as good as RTDL was for the side scroller series?

Wonders is what NSMB 2 should've been imo.

I almost expected 3D Land and 3D World to replace NSMB back in the 3DS/Wii U days.

 

[dropsmegamega]

I'd still argue that Return to Dreamland was the breath of fresh air the franchise needed after a full decade of handheld only spin-offs, remakes and games not developed by HAL themselves.

I still like some of them like Canvas Curse for bringing the Soul Boss trend to the series and Superstar Ultra for having many more side games added to it but in the same way I regret that the Gamecube Kirby game got cancelled.

Kirby is primarily a handheld franchise (it even started on the Gameboy after all) so I understand why they focused mostly on it (that's also why the 3DS had more Kirby games overall).

On a side note I think that Planet Robobot is up there with Superstar as one of the best entries in the franchise, both pushing it forward while also keeping its roots.

The playerbase of the Kirby franchise still agrees that RTDL is one of the best entries in the entire saga as well (even if I've discovered it quite late I do agree despite the quality of life the subsequent games have added).

I wouldn't say it got stale for decades, only one for the 00's.

I believe RTDL came in an era people were really starved for a new console kirby game, so it was kinda destined to be praised unless it really messed up; I myself was a big kirby fan back then and it was kind of a big deal after being disappointed that epic yarn wasn't a real kirby game. It definitely wasn't a bad game, but I wouldn't call it brilliant either. I'd say RTDL and the original NSMB are similar in the sense that they were both decent, but fairly unambitious and standard "revivals" that became base for several extremely similar sequels.

 

[thanonyx thanonyx]

Kingdom Hearts

 

[Lena CE]

Truthfully, it's harder for me to think of franchises that have surpassed or even maintained their level of quality. It's not that I think almost every sequel is abysmal dogshit or anything, but I certainly can't think of many franchises that haven't gotten at least a little less exciting. Even something like Resident Evil - a franchise that has never released a mainline title I dislike - doesn't end up hitting the same anymore. Even its best recent titles like RE2R and RE4R feel more content being more generic over the shoulder action games and ditching any of those iconic or unique aspects of old RE design.

Maybe I'm just getting older, idk. I could be really mean and just start slagging damn near everything, but eh.

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

I believe RTDL came in an era people were really starved for a new console kirby game, so it was kinda destined to be praised unless it really messed up; I myself was a big kirby fan back then and it was kind of a big deal after being disappointed that epic yarn wasn't a real kirby game. It definitely wasn't a bad game, but I wouldn't call it brilliant either. I'd say RTDL and the original NSMB are similar in the sense that they were both decent, but fairly unambitious and standard "revivals" that became base for several extremely similar sequels.

Sorry but ambition doesn't systematically equal "quality" nor "great" game.

Also I'd still argue that Wonders is different enough from NSMB and Planet Robobot from RtDL to be seen as extremely similar sequels.


On a side note, while I understand how good it was for a 16-bits game, (old school) Kirby fans are overrating Superstar a bit too much. Yes it's a great showcase of Sakurai's game design that would lay the groundwork for Smash Bros, especially the Subspace Emissary (I noticed that when I saw that teleport effect that the second player had when going too far from the camera) yet it clearly shows that it doesn't have a single cohesive story/gameplay but more akin to a compilation of small games.

I understand that philosophy but I would've rather seen one big adventure with one leading story than a remake of Kirby's Dream Land (minus Castle Lololo that merged with Float Island), a racing platforming game and a game about fetching treasures.

Only Meta Knight's Revenge and Milky Way Wishes felt like proper adventures to the point I'm wondering why they couldn't have built a full game about these (especially with MWW's deluxe ability system).


Return to Dreamland actually took the best elements from both Sakurai and Shimomura's game design for Kirby and created one big story without going all over the place.

Playing the Deluxe remake on the Switch simply confirmed that it was indeed the best refinement of the formula of the game.

Telling that Kirby has "regressed" because it didn't try to reinvent the wheel but rather make it turn better is a bit disingenuous imo.

 

[Yousef]

I believe Kingdom Hearts is textbook definition of this. I think Nomura did have largely pure intentions, but things quickly grew out of his reach and goals when he switched dev teams and just couldn’t really maintain the same work ethic. KH2 and onwards are all practically different games because they quite literally are. It’s thanks to Yuichi Kanemori that kh2 was half as good as it was.

He’s the real heart and soul of the series, but had sadly had diminishing influence as KH shifted dev teams and studios around and was unfortunately still left in the misguided hands of our old buddy Nomura, who still wouldn’t direct game properly even if the project was given to him on a silver platter, which it practically was, given that KH was quite literally an elevator pitch LOL.

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

I believe Kingdom Hearts is textbook definition of this. I think Nomura did have largely pure intentions, but things quickly grew out of his reach and goals when he switched dev teams and just couldn’t really maintain the same work ethic. KH2 and onwards are all practically different games because they quite literally are. It’s thanks to Yuichi Kanemori that kh2 was half as good as it was.

He’s the real heart and soul of the series, but had sadly had diminishing influence as KH shifted dev teams and studios around and was unfortunately still left in the misguided hands of our old buddy Nomura, who still wouldn’t direct game properly even if the project was given to him on a silver platter, which it practically was, given that KH was quite literally an elevator pitch LOL.

KH1 may have had tedious platforming sections but I don't like how button mashy the ARPG gameplay became with the subsequent games. Nomura should've handled the story and some game design elements only.

Also KH basically profited from the success of the first game just to make a ton of spinoffs which makes the series harder to follow.



Wasn't there a similar thing with MGS where another dev helped Kojima?

 

[Yousef]

KH1 may have had tedious platforming sections but I don't like how button mashy the ARPG gameplay became with the subsequent games. Nomura should've handled the story and some game design elements only.

I’d say this happened after 2 specifically, once they switched to the Osaka team with BBS.

Also KH basically profited from the success of the first game just to make a ton of spinoffs which makes the series harder to follow.

I would say this is half true. There was no direct plans for a sequel, just seeds being planted in hopes for one. Kh1 has an insane number of untied loose ends that were left there because there was no guarantee for a sequel.

KH was heavily damaged by the existence of multiple platforms. Nomura just wanted to keep experimenting with his shiny new toys so he made so many games for so many different handhelds with accompanying gimmicks.

Wasn't there a similar thing with MGS where another dev helped Kojima?

Yeah absolutely. For sure.

 

[dropsmegamega]

Sorry but ambition doesn't systematically equal "quality" nor "great" game.

Also I'd still argue that Wonders is different enough from NSMB and Planet Robobot from RtDL to be seen as extremely similar sequels.


On a side note, while I understand how good it was for a 16-bits game, (old school) Kirby fans are overrating Superstar a bit too much. Yes it's a great showcase of Sakurai's game design that would lay the groundwork for Smash Bros, especially the Subspace Emissary (I noticed that when I saw that teleport effect that the second player had when going too far from the camera) yet it clearly shows that it doesn't have a single cohesive story/gameplay but more akin to a compilation of small games.

I understand that philosophy but I would've rather seen one big adventure with one leading story than a remake of Kirby's Dream Land (minus Castle Lololo that merged with Float Island), a racing platforming game and a game about fetching treasures.

Only Meta Knight's Revenge and Milky Way Wishes felt like proper adventures to the point I'm wondering why they couldn't have built a full game about these (especially with MWW's deluxe ability system).


Return to Dreamland actually took the best elements from both Sakurai and Shimomura's game design for Kirby and created one big story without going all over the place.

Playing the Deluxe remake on the Switch simply confirmed that it was indeed the best refinement of the formula of the game.

Telling that Kirby has "regressed" because it didn't try to reinvent the wheel but rather make it turn better is a bit disingenuous imo.

Lack of ambition definitely does equal a mid game, principally when said game cuts several features that past games already had and takes a super safe direction. It's very telling that the cancelled GCN game seemed more advanced than RTDL- and when despite settling for only making copies of Super Star it still took like 4 games for then to be able to add back the helper system.

And I'd say the idea of a compilation of smaller games is one of the things that makes Super Star still more memorable and superior compared to the games that built upon it. Kirby was a fairly experimental series after all and SS is consistently more creative than RTDL. RTDL basically recycled Milky Way Wishes story and yet it still feels inferior because it lacks the moody fairytale esque quality that Milky Way had.

 

[JoueurCitoyen]

Two franchises that have regressed in my opinion:
- Fire Emblem, because of the relationship system
- Yakuza/Like a Dragon, since the turn-based battles and Goof… Ichiban were introduced

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

Lack of ambition definitely does equal a mid game

Not necessarily, if a game doesn't reinvent the wheel but is still fun and good why would it be mid?

An ambitious yet glitchy game is worse to my eyes.

It's very telling that the cancelled GCN game seemed more advanced than RTDL

"Seemed" yet we didn't get it so you cannot objectively know if it would've ultimately ended up being better and more advanced in every ways.

RTDL basically recycled Milky Way Wishes story and yet it still feels inferior because it lacks the moody fairytale esque quality that Milky Way had.

That's entirely subjective there. I don't care about the "moody fairytale" because it's gameplay that matters ultimately.

RtDL having 4 players and varied worlds is already a plus to me.

And I'd still argue that Planet Robobot is, despite being a solo game, one of the best entries in the series for various reasons, the level design, the soundtrack the lore and because it's simply doing the best at what Kirby does.

The Kirby franchise is also one of the few that almost never had any bad game per se. I don't see any regression with Forgotten Land nor RTDL Deluxe.