Final Fantasy Thread

[Tonberry]

I suppose that Sakaguchi intentionally morphing the series throughout the 5th generation and passing the torch to new creatives made this kind of sentiment inevitable. When you no longer have the same handful of people helming the franchise it will obviously change to reflect the preferences and view of the franchise that the new creatives have. In an anthological franchise like FF I don't view that as an issue, especially when (imo) the best games in the series came from this sort of mentality. FF7, FFX, FFXII are all extremely unique from each other in gameplay, setting and structure.

Hell, the idea of Final Fantasy as an RPG also feels so vague. Most of the games have such limited character diversity in terms of playstyle and ultra limited progression systems whilst still having linear stories that JRPGs are known for. It makes the notion of "Final Fantasy isn't an RPG series anymore" ring so hollow when games like FF6 and FF7 - the two most beloved games in the franchise - have next to no real RPG elements aside from the equipment characters have and the automated leveling system.

It feels like people just miss "feeling" like they were RPGs or something? The franchise has long just wore the skin of RPG whilst doing very little to actually justify that opinion in terms of gameplay, character agency or story nonlinearity. Its become so hard to fully understand and empathize with what people mean when they say the series doesn't resemble itself anymore that I legit just look at those kinds of comments as old men yelling at clouds type of behavior even if it is coming from a genuine place.

Yeah, I said this somewhere on RGT the other day, but one of the things I like so much with FF is how different they allow themselves to be, even in their own franchise.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

I suppose that Sakaguchi intentionally morphing the series throughout the 5th generation and passing the torch to new creatives made this kind of sentiment inevitable. When you no longer have the same handful of people helming the franchise it will obviously change to reflect the preferences and view of the franchise that the new creatives have. In an anthological franchise like FF I don't view that as an issue, especially when (imo) the best games in the series came from this sort of mentality. FF7, FFX, FFXII are all extremely unique from each other in gameplay, setting and structure.

Hell, the idea of Final Fantasy as an RPG also feels so vague. Most of the games have such limited character diversity in terms of playstyle and ultra limited progression systems whilst still having linear stories that JRPGs are known for. It makes the notion of "Final Fantasy isn't an RPG series anymore" ring so hollow when games like FF6 and FF7 - the two most beloved games in the franchise - have next to no real RPG elements aside from the equipment characters have and the automated leveling system.

It feels like people just miss "feeling" like they were RPGs or something? The franchise has long just wore the skin of RPG whilst doing very little to actually justify that opinion in terms of gameplay, character agency or story nonlinearity. Its become so hard to fully understand and empathize with what people mean when they say the series doesn't resemble itself anymore that I legit just look at those kinds of comments as old men yelling at clouds type of behavior even if it is coming from a genuine place.

There's a difference between what the devs intended Final Fantasy to be, what the traditional fans want it to be and what the new fans want it to be. The gameplay has been altered over the years, but the original director, Hironobu Sakaguchi wanted it to be an RPG. They made it very casual and user friendly for the younger console audience, but they were still RPGs inspired by Ultima and Dragon Quest. Whether that vision still applies in the post Sakaguchi era is up for debate, but there's no denying that was the vision for the first 10 games or so. If a restaurant serves cheeseburgers for 10 straight years and stops serving them all of a sudden, there's going to be some customer backlash/confusion.

I think one thing is clear to me and should be very clear from the title: Final Fantasy should be a fantasy franchise. Doesn't necessarily have to be medieval fantasy, but it should be rooted in the fantastical. As soon as they deviate from that and become ordinary, the title essentially becomes meaningless and they might as well flush the whole franchise down the toilet.

 

[Tonberry]

As soon as they deviate from that and become ordinary, the title essentially becomes meaningless

I’m fairly confident that won’t happen. It’s not like it feels like GTA even at its most contemporary-inspired.

 

[Guinea]

I still have a few FF games on the backlog to complete (16, Stranger of Paradise, Type-O, all of the Crystal Chronicles) not to mention a ton of Square's other games like Bravely Default 2, NEO TWEWY, Lost Sphear, Oninaki, etc.

Gonna take a while.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

I’m fairly confident that won’t happen. It’s not like it feels like GTA even at its most contemporary-inspired.

It is the natural end result of trend chasing. I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect in 10 years or so, Final Fantasy will either become a mainstream Devil May Cry type franchise, barely recognizable to older fans or will cease to exist except in remasters and cheap mobile titles.

 

[Tonberry]

a mainstream Devil May Cry type franchise

I don’t understand this comparison at all? Final Fantasy is infinitely more mainstream than DMC ever was, and everyone I’ve ever known to play those are the nu-metal millennials it’s always been geared towards.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

I don’t understand this comparison at all? Final Fantasy is infinitely more mainstream than DMC ever was, and everyone I’ve ever known to play those are the nu-metal millennials it’s always been geared towards.

Maybe DMC was the wrong example, I wasn't aware it had such a small fanbase (which makes it even sillier that Square Enix is bringing in all of the DMC devs to make their games). But my point is that FF is on the path to become another ordinary action franchise or it will cease to exist, as the budgets for these games do not support them being niche JRPGs in 2025.

 

[Somnia]

It is the natural end result of trend chasing. I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect in 10 years or so, Final Fantasy will either become a mainstream Devil May Cry type franchise, barely recognizable to older fans or will cease to exist except in remasters and cheap mobile titles.

Final Fantasy is more mainstream than Devil May Cry so what does this sentence even mean?

Also how are FFXI, FFXII, FFXIII and FFXIV even debatabley less RPG-like than the first 10 games? If someone draws the cutoff at XV or XVI I can agree/disagree but at least get a better idea of their perspective, but saying "whether that vision still applies is up for debate" is so silly to me. If we can debate those 4 listed games then we can debate the entire franchise as far as I'm concerned.

We have to draw the line somewhere and if XV/XVI is someone's line that's totally understandable even if I still think those games are great.

I appreciate that I'm just far looser with my definition of "what is Final Fantasy" than most because I grew up in the 5th and 6th generations of the franchise where it was changing a fuckton every single game in structure, art style, gameplay and progression. If you grew up with 1 thru 6 as they were releasing I can better understand having a more defined idea of what the franchise is or should be, but again if X is where we draw the line as undebatable and yet everything after that somehow is, I feel our definitions are a bit odd.

 

[Tonberry]

Maybe DMC was the wrong example, I wasn't aware it had such a small fanbase (which makes it even sillier that Square Enix is bringing in all of the DMC devs to make their games). But my point is that FF is on the path to become another ordinary action franchise or it will cease to exist, as the budgets for these games do not support them being niche JRPGs in 2025.

Ah, I didn’t think about the DMC devs working on 16, that makes your comparison slightly more understandable, I suppose.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

Final Fantasy is more mainstream than Devil May Cry so what does this sentence even mean?

Also how are FFXI, FFXII, FFXIII and FFXIV even debatabley less RPG-like than the first 10 games? If someone draws the cutoff at XV or XVI I can agree/disagree but at least get a better idea of their perspective, but saying "whether that vision still applies is up for debate" is so silly to me. If we can debate those 4 listed games then we can debate the entire franchise as far as I'm concerned.

We have to draw the line somewhere and if XV/XVI is someone's line that's totally understandable even if I still think those games are great.

I appreciate that I'm just far looser with my definition of "what is Final Fantasy" than most because I grew up in the 5th and 6th generations of the franchise where it was changing a fuckton every single game in structure, art style, gameplay and progression. If you grew up with 1 thru 6 as they were releasing I can better understand having a more defined idea of what the franchise is or should be, but again if X is where we draw the line as undebatable and yet everything after that somehow is, I feel our definitions are a bit odd.

I made the cutoff at X because that was the cutoff of Sakaguchi's involvement in the franchise and it is pretty much undisputed that he wanted the games to be RPGs. But yeah XII and XIII are still in the vein of traditional FF for the most part. I haven't played XI or XIV but I've heard that XIV is pretty light on customization and RPG elements. Can't say for sure without playing it. MMOs are kind of a different beast to me, but I guess they count.

I do appreciate the loose structure to Final Fantasy, but to me it starts and ends with the world "Fantasy". Anything that is a disservice to that idea is not welcome. That may mean different things to different people, or some may even not care about that, but that is how I feel.

 

[SolemnlyDoc]

The problem of whether a game series should remain true and loyal to the original fans who made it popular or adapt to the new generation of players to remain relevant is always going to be debated.

My feeling is that the key is balance. A game series is not stone - its a river. It must flow or it'll become stagnant. But a river that forgets its source will dry up. Honor the roots that made the game beloved, but do not fear the winds of change. A wise gardener does not force a tree to remain small forever - he trims, he nurtures, and he allows it to grow strong in new ways. But if change comes only from fear, fear of losing popularity, fear of fading into history, then the spirit of the game will wither.

A game must change, yes, but with wisdom, not desperation. A game that respects both the old warriors and the young adventurers will stand the test of time.

 

[Somnia]

Maybe DMC was the wrong example, I wasn't aware it had such a small fanbase (which makes it even sillier that Square Enix is bringing in all of the DMC devs to make their games). But my point is that FF is on the path to become another ordinary action franchise or it will cease to exist, as the budgets for these games do not support them being niche JRPGs in 2025.

Do you not see the paradox in lambasting Square Enix as supposedly chasing trends and yet they hire combat directors from a franchise less popular to make the new game simply because they think that person is really good at what they do and can elevate the current project?

So its silly to hire the right person for the job because a franchise they worked on prior is less popular? I urge you to not look into what projects many Final Fantasy alumni got their start if this is the line of thinking.

DMC isn't even a normal franchise and it is often considered a peak in its style of action game, a style that is RARELY ever imitated especially in the modern era. Ig you admitted its a bad comparison tho so no sense harping on it so much.

Point is that we can't simultaneously say that Square Enix is chasing trends and then admit that they're hiring staff that make less popular games lol. Popularity does not equate to quality anyways.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

Do you not see the paradox in lambasting Square Enix as supposedly chasing trends and yet they hire combat directors from a franchise less popular to make the new game simply because they think that person is really good at what they do and can elevate the current project?

So its silly to hire the right person for the job because a franchise they worked on prior is less popular? I urge you to not look into what projects many Final Fantasy alumni got their start if this is the line of thinking.

DMC isn't even a normal franchise and it is often considered a peak in its style of action game, a style that is RARELY ever imitated especially in the modern era. Ig you admitted its a bad comparison tho so no sense harping on it so much.

Point is that we can't simultaneously say that Square Enix is chasing trends and then admit that they're hiring staff that make less popular games lol. Popularity does not equate to quality anyways.

I admire your lack of cynicism, I truly wish I could see things the way you do. All it indicates to me is that Final Fantasy is behind the ball in their trend chasing. They are now starting to adopt gaming paradigms from those Ubisoft/Zelda popularized such as the open world and exploration towers a decade after those features felt fresh. Maybe in 2035 they'll reflect what is popular nowadays.

 

[Pandaprewmaster325]

The problem of whether a game series should remain true and loyal to the original fans who made it popular or adapt to the new generation of players to remain relevant is always going to be debated.

My feeling is that the key is balance. A game series is not stone - its a river. It must flow or it'll become stagnant. But a river that forgets its source will dry up. Honor the roots that made the game beloved, but do not fear the winds of change. A wise gardener does not force a tree to remain small forever - he trims, he nurtures, and he allows it to grow strong in new ways. But if change comes only from fear, fear of losing popularity, fear of fading into history, then the spirit of the game will wither.

A game must change, yes, but with wisdom, not desperation. A game that respects both the old warriors and the young adventurers will stand the test of time.

I wholeheartedly agree it seems sometimes gamers complain about anything new and prefer old stuff until new stuff become old....its basically like this the base structure the franchise is built on has to be kept the same not even speaking about final fantasy just generally speaking that is games that seem to abandon what makes them great lose relevance look at CNC for example they started changing the economy system in red alert 3 and tried to appeal to the Esport scene and compete with starcraft it ended up making a decent RTS game but a terrible and I mean terrible CNC game it got even worse in CNC4 which was the death blow for the franchise by deviating from many aspects that made CNC well CNC....in my opinion some core parts of the identity can be improved as time goes on introduce new stuff that doesn't clash with the old design however game design can be difficult and is quite complicated topic you have to look at it from the developer perspective to get the full picture and how decisions are made , what is the vision etc all need to be defined clearly so you know what you are working on.

One thing I could mention is how slowly the active battle system was improved from introducing formations to the bars that signal this character can make a move to defending and more....all improvements that help the system stay fleshed out and unique in each new iteration same for summons whom in 4/5 didn't do much outside of combat but in 6 are core part of the game and in 8 also core part of the game and summons I think are must be in a FF game in my opinion the changes to summons helped make them have more impact on the game clearly a positive thing in my opinion and makes each entry unique however notice that all share the same formula , random encounters accompanied with a Active battle system , and linear storyline idk about modern final fantasy as I only played 1/2/4/5/6 (which is awesome)/7/8. And currently tactics but I need sometime to form a proper opinion about tactics as final fantasy is the type of game that starts pretty tame and takes a while to get going.

 

[Sir Auriel of Lionel]

It is the natural end result of trend chasing. I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect in 10 years or so, Final Fantasy will either become a mainstream Devil May Cry type franchise, barely recognizable to older fans or will cease to exist except in remasters and cheap mobile titles.

So is the main problem an active action combat system? I understand the appeal of it being simple and fast button mashing to cut through the grind that most older rpgs were built on for difficulty curve and length, that might have been a nagging critique stuck in Squares mind all the way back from their SNES days. And that could be what they think is what fights them from really grabbing "mainstream audience". If that's all I have to worry about instead of complaints like FFXIII being a hallway simulator, or bringing back random encounters (god I hate them please just let me run into them on screen) or mandatory mini games (I'm sorry but I hated Blitzball) then I'll take it. Just let me have an open map, towns to walk through, downtime and ability to chat with party mates in town/camp/bar, chocobos to ride, beautiful lands to traverse and vibrant wildlife to kill and I could possibly be happy. I won't over shoot for a great story or characters because I'm being greedy with my requests already. And while FFXII is my main favorite it's story and characters are pretty thin.

 

[Pandaprewmaster325]

Wait did I read that right? "Mainstream audience" isn't final fantasy one of the most if not the most famous Japanese RPG title? Having many many effects on the gaming landscape? Isn't it enough? No?

And the grinding isn't really that bad there is enough random encounters which guess what? Are a core part of final fantasy identity for you to level up enough to face anything well unless its FF5 or 1 where you do need a little bit of clapping monster cheeks to get by I think grinding is about the mindset I see it as a way of training and honing my skills.

But I think that's how most old RPGs work in diablo 2 for example leveling up is pretty slow but the game provides you with enough enemies to kill and extra dungeons and loot to find to get by I seen criticism of D4 having characters level up too quickly.

If the leveling up process in 8 wasn't so smooth then idk what is and in that game you can even halve the rate of random encounters for speed sake it has a downside but that's one way to hasten your run through the game and you can even do no encounters at all which I think is a horrible choice.

But final fantasy is a slow paced game shortest game (ff1) took me 25 hours to beat on level 35 faster paced games are more attention grabbing but I think its again part of the final fantasy experience the game being quite lengthy and not going under 20 hours

 

[MasterEn]

I fail to see what Cup of Noodles has to do with Fantasy.

To be more precise and less snarky, if they really cared about immersion and preserving the Fantasy, they would've invented a brand of noodles specific to Final Fantasy XV's world and left it at that. Instead they took the money from Nissin. It is sad that young people today are ok with such blatant acts of selling out in media.

if i remember correctly, square enix is located somewhat close to the nissin noodle company. that might have something to do with the product placement. i've heard that the square enix employees are big fans of the cup noodles product.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

So is the main problem an active action combat system? I understand the appeal of it being simple and fast button mashing to cut through the grind that most older rpgs were built on for difficulty curve and length, that might have been a nagging critique stuck in Squares mind all the way back from their SNES days. And that could be what they think is what fights them from really grabbing "mainstream audience". If that's all I have to worry about instead of complaints like FFXIII being a hallway simulator, or bringing back random encounters (god I hate them please just let me run into them on screen) or mandatory mini games (I'm sorry but I hated Blitzball) then I'll take it. Just let me have an open map, towns to walk through, downtime and ability to chat with party mates in town/camp/bar, chocobos to ride, beautiful lands to traverse and vibrant wildlife to kill and I could possibly be happy. I won't over shoot for a great story or characters because I'm being greedy with my requests already. And while FFXII is my main favorite it's story and characters are pretty thin.

I think real time combat is antithetical to many of the things I consider important to the Final Fantasy experience. There have been many attempts to marry real time and full party control and none of them have been effective so far, in my estimation. So you'd have to go the single character action direction that FFXVI goes into to be an effective action game, but that diminishes the "Final Fantasy"ness of your game. Or maybe they can find a way to make real time work with party members, you never know.

Post automatically merged: Feb 8, 2025

if i remember correctly, square enix is located somewhat close to the nissin noodle company. that might have something to do with the product placement. i've heard that the square enix employees are big fans of the cup noodles product.

Square enix is located close to a bunch of companies. Should all of them have product placement spots in the next Final Fantasy game?

 

[Tonberry]

As long as they have Chocobos (THAT DON'T DIE ON-SCREEN) I'll play them 'till the end of time.

I may have a shallow mind, but you can kiss my behind!

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

As long as they have Chocobos (THAT DON'T DIE ON-SCREEN) I'll play them 'till the end of time.

I may have a shallow mind, but you can kiss my behind!

Did FFXV have any chocobos? I think they've already violated one of your rules.

 

[Sir Auriel of Lionel]

I think real time combat is antithetical to many of the things I consider important to the Final Fantasy experience. There have been many attempts to marry real time and full party control and none of them have been effective so far, in my estimation. So you'd have to go the single character action direction that FFXVI goes into to be an effective action game, but that diminishes the "Final Fantasy"ness of your game. Or maybe they can find a way to make real time work with party members, you never know.

Post automatically merged: Feb 8, 2025

Square enix is located close to a bunch of companies. Should all of them have product placement spots in the next Final Fantasy game?

FFXII's gambit system is the closest full party control we're going to get for real time. I think it's the best in immersion as what great wyrm is going to patiently wait it's turn? It will wait if it's casting it's own spell but otherwise you have to prepare for the rake of his claws and careful they usually like to stack multiple hits.

 

[Tonberry]

Did FFXV have any chocobos? I think they've already violated one of your rules.

FF15 has the BEST chocobos! The chocobo theme from that game makes me so insanely happy.

They kill chocobos on-screen in 16 (and Type-0 I think) and it genuinely upset me when I saw it.

If there's any one imaginary creature I wish was real, it'd be chocobos.

 

[Pandaprewmaster325]

As long as they have Chocobos (THAT DON'T DIE ON-SCREEN) I'll play them 'till the end of time.

I may have a shallow mind, but you can kiss my behind!

Video of the year.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

FFXII's gambit system is the closest full party control we're going to get for real time. I think it's the best in immersion as what great wyrm is going to patiently wait it's turn? It will wait if it's casting it's own spell but otherwise you have to prepare for the rake of his claws and careful they usually like to stack multiple hits.

Yeah I think a FFXII / Xenoblade Chronicles type of system is the best compromise between those who want action and those who want slower strategic gameplay.

 

[Tonberry]

Video of the year.

I watched it so much as a kid that my mom knows the lyrics lmao