Final Fantasy Thread

[Strategist's icon Strategist Strategist]

While I agree with you in the general sense, I don’t think FF is an particularly egregious example.

Besides, it’s not like it’s a new thing for them to do:
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Yeah, that's fair but they've gotten worse and worse at it over time. And like I said, they crossed the line when they inserted product placement into a fantasy game. That is a figurative slap in the face to the customer that pays for an immersive experience. It is basically saying "I don't give a crap about your immersion if I can make a few extra bucks off of it".

 

[Tonberry]

Yeah, that's fair but they've gotten worse and worse at it over time. And like I said, they crossed the line when they inserted product placement into a fantasy game. That is a figurative slap in the face to the customer that pays for an immersive experience. It is basically saying "I don't give a crap about your immersion if I can make a few extra bucks off of it".

You’re absolutely correct, and I do agree, but I can’t help but think the cup noodle thing was more funny than anything else. I liked how everyone but Gladio thought it was lame.

15 is a mess overall, even if I probably count in the ”defender” tribe when it comes to that game lol.

 

[Pandaprewmaster325]

I think final fantasy at this point is something rooted in Japanese culture like its part of Japan? Its only been few months since I first played this awesome series (end of August/early September 2024) but I can already spot some things final fantasy does everytime

-active battle system
-airships idk why but square or whoever in it had a love for airships to include them in every game
-chocobos
-magic girl always ever since ff2 a girl has to be the magician of the team maria starts with higher magic than firion and gus clearly devs wanted to tell us "THIS CHARACTER IS A WIZARD" , ff4 with rydia and rosa , ff5 with reina having highest intelligence I think again suitable for magician in fact best magician , in ff6 the protagonist IS the magic girl , ff7 with aerith , ff8 I mean they went ballistic with it the sorceress lore and even gameplay wise selphie is the spellcaster of the team followed by rinoa.
-an inventor named cid

Oh and a hell lot of crystals at least the first few games were all about crystals , crystal that crystal there crystals everywhere!

One unique aspect of ff1 is armor being OP its the only ff game that felt like armor is just too good james the warrior kept getting slapped , clawed , mauled , bitten , stabbed slashed and all sorts of attacks just to take 1 damage like wow this is Teutonic knight level of tankiness.

These are I think are core components of a final fantasy game. (Minus the OP armor)

Note: I shouldn't mention this but great soundtrack is also to be expected I think everybody knows final fantasy is top tier when it comes to the soundtrack.

 

[Strategist's icon Strategist Strategist]

I think final fantasy at this point is something rooted in Japanese culture like its part of Japan? Its only been few months since I first played this awesome series (end of August/early September 2024) but I can already spot some things final fantasy does everytime

-active battle system
-airships idk why but square or whoever in it had a love for airships to include them in every game
-chocobos
-magic girl always ever since ff2 a girl has to be the magician of the team maria starts with higher magic than firion and gus clearly devs wanted to tell us "THIS CHARACTER IS A WIZARD" , ff4 with rydia and rosa , ff5 with reina having highest intelligence I think again suitable for magician in fact best magician , in ff6 the protagonist IS the magic girl , ff7 with aerith , ff8 I mean they went ballistic with it the sorceress lore and even gameplay wise selphie is the spellcaster of the team followed by rinoa.
-an inventor named cid

Oh and a hell lot of crystals at least the first few games were all about crystals , crystal that crystal there crystals everywhere!

One unique aspect of ff1 is armor being OP its the only ff game that felt like armor is just too good james the warrior kept getting slapped , clawed , mauled , bitten , stabbed slashed and all sorts of attacks just to take 1 damage like wow this is Teutonic knight level of tankiness.

These are I think are core components of a final fantasy game. (Minus the OP armor)

That was probably the case up until XII or XIII. Now Square Enix doesn't know what Final Fantasy is except they are going to chase whatever trend they think will give them the most sales.

 

[Lena CE]

Yeah, that's fair but they've gotten worse and worse at it over time. And like I said, they crossed the line when they inserted product placement into a fantasy game. That is a figurative slap in the face to the customer that pays for an immersive experience. It is basically saying "I don't give a crap about your immersion if I can make a few extra bucks off of it".

Has it really though? FFXV is the only game to really take it to any kind of extreme. Actually I suppose FFXIV could also count given it had that Fall Guys crossover in the Gold Saucer.

 

[Strategist's icon Strategist Strategist]

Has it really though? FFXV is the only game to really take it to any kind of extreme. Actually I suppose FFXIV could also count given it had that Fall Guys crossover in the Gold Saucer.

"Search your feelings, you know it to be true"

 

[Sir Auriel of Lionel]

Dunno I think FFXIII was already the turning point they don't know what they want a Final Fantasy to be, they had all the tropes and their flagship calling cards.

That was probably the case up until XII or XIII. Now Square Enix doesn't know what Final Fantasy is except they are going to chase whatever trend they think will give them the most sales.

What is a Final Fantasy game for you? When they had themes about questioning existence? I already showed myself of what fan I am.

 

[Tonberry]

Like Sakaguchi once said;
”Blue menus.”

 

[Lena CE]

I suppose that Sakaguchi intentionally morphing the series throughout the 5th generation and passing the torch to new creatives made this kind of sentiment inevitable. When you no longer have the same handful of people helming the franchise it will obviously change to reflect the preferences and view of the franchise that the new creatives have. In an anthological franchise like FF I don't view that as an issue, especially when (imo) the best games in the series came from this sort of mentality. FF7, FFX, FFXII are all extremely unique from each other in gameplay, setting and structure.

Hell, the idea of Final Fantasy as an RPG also feels so vague. Most of the games have such limited character diversity in terms of playstyle and ultra limited progression systems whilst still having linear stories that JRPGs are known for. It makes the notion of "Final Fantasy isn't an RPG series anymore" ring so hollow when games like FF6 and FF7 - the two most beloved games in the franchise - have next to no real RPG elements aside from the equipment characters have and the automated leveling system.

It feels like people just miss "feeling" like they were RPGs or something? The franchise has long just wore the skin of RPG whilst doing very little to actually justify that opinion in terms of gameplay, character agency or story nonlinearity. Its become so hard to fully understand and empathize with what people mean when they say the series doesn't resemble itself anymore that I legit just look at those kinds of comments as old men yelling at clouds type of behavior even if it is coming from a genuine place.

 

[Tonberry]

I suppose that Sakaguchi intentionally morphing the series throughout the 5th generation and passing the torch to new creatives made this kind of sentiment inevitable. When you no longer have the same handful of people helming the franchise it will obviously change to reflect the preferences and view of the franchise that the new creatives have. In an anthological franchise like FF I don't view that as an issue, especially when (imo) the best games in the series came from this sort of mentality. FF7, FFX, FFXII are all extremely unique from each other in gameplay, setting and structure.

Hell, the idea of Final Fantasy as an RPG also feels so vague. Most of the games have such limited character diversity in terms of playstyle and ultra limited progression systems whilst still having linear stories that JRPGs are known for. It makes the notion of "Final Fantasy isn't an RPG series anymore" ring so hollow when games like FF6 and FF7 - the two most beloved games in the franchise - have next to no real RPG elements aside from the equipment characters have and the automated leveling system.

It feels like people just miss "feeling" like they were RPGs or something? The franchise has long just wore the skin of RPG whilst doing very little to actually justify that opinion in terms of gameplay, character agency or story nonlinearity. Its become so hard to fully understand and empathize with what people mean when they say the series doesn't resemble itself anymore that I legit just look at those kinds of comments as old men yelling at clouds type of behavior even if it is coming from a genuine place.

Yeah, I said this somewhere on RGT the other day, but one of the things I like so much with FF is how different they allow themselves to be, even in their own franchise.

 

[Strategist's icon Strategist Strategist]

I suppose that Sakaguchi intentionally morphing the series throughout the 5th generation and passing the torch to new creatives made this kind of sentiment inevitable. When you no longer have the same handful of people helming the franchise it will obviously change to reflect the preferences and view of the franchise that the new creatives have. In an anthological franchise like FF I don't view that as an issue, especially when (imo) the best games in the series came from this sort of mentality. FF7, FFX, FFXII are all extremely unique from each other in gameplay, setting and structure.

Hell, the idea of Final Fantasy as an RPG also feels so vague. Most of the games have such limited character diversity in terms of playstyle and ultra limited progression systems whilst still having linear stories that JRPGs are known for. It makes the notion of "Final Fantasy isn't an RPG series anymore" ring so hollow when games like FF6 and FF7 - the two most beloved games in the franchise - have next to no real RPG elements aside from the equipment characters have and the automated leveling system.

It feels like people just miss "feeling" like they were RPGs or something? The franchise has long just wore the skin of RPG whilst doing very little to actually justify that opinion in terms of gameplay, character agency or story nonlinearity. Its become so hard to fully understand and empathize with what people mean when they say the series doesn't resemble itself anymore that I legit just look at those kinds of comments as old men yelling at clouds type of behavior even if it is coming from a genuine place.

There's a difference between what the devs intended Final Fantasy to be, what the traditional fans want it to be and what the new fans want it to be. The gameplay has been altered over the years, but the original director, Hironobu Sakaguchi wanted it to be an RPG. They made it very casual and user friendly for the younger console audience, but they were still RPGs inspired by Ultima and Dragon Quest. Whether that vision still applies in the post Sakaguchi era is up for debate, but there's no denying that was the vision for the first 10 games or so. If a restaurant serves cheeseburgers for 10 straight years and stops serving them all of a sudden, there's going to be some customer backlash/confusion.

I think one thing is clear to me and should be very clear from the title: Final Fantasy should be a fantasy franchise. Doesn't necessarily have to be medieval fantasy, but it should be rooted in the fantastical. As soon as they deviate from that and become ordinary, the title essentially becomes meaningless and they might as well flush the whole franchise down the toilet.

 

[Tonberry]

As soon as they deviate from that and become ordinary, the title essentially becomes meaningless

I’m fairly confident that won’t happen. It’s not like it feels like GTA even at its most contemporary-inspired.

 

[Guinea]

I still have a few FF games on the backlog to complete (16, Stranger of Paradise, Type-O, all of the Crystal Chronicles) not to mention a ton of Square's other games like Bravely Default 2, NEO TWEWY, Lost Sphear, Oninaki, etc.

Gonna take a while.

 

[Strategist's icon Strategist Strategist]

I’m fairly confident that won’t happen. It’s not like it feels like GTA even at its most contemporary-inspired.

It is the natural end result of trend chasing. I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect in 10 years or so, Final Fantasy will either become a mainstream Devil May Cry type franchise, barely recognizable to older fans or will cease to exist except in remasters and cheap mobile titles.

 

[Tonberry]

a mainstream Devil May Cry type franchise

I don’t understand this comparison at all? Final Fantasy is infinitely more mainstream than DMC ever was, and everyone I’ve ever known to play those are the nu-metal millennials it’s always been geared towards.

 

[Strategist's icon Strategist Strategist]

I don’t understand this comparison at all? Final Fantasy is infinitely more mainstream than DMC ever was, and everyone I’ve ever known to play those are the nu-metal millennials it’s always been geared towards.

Maybe DMC was the wrong example, I wasn't aware it had such a small fanbase (which makes it even sillier that Square Enix is bringing in all of the DMC devs to make their games). But my point is that FF is on the path to become another ordinary action franchise or it will cease to exist, as the budgets for these games do not support them being niche JRPGs in 2025.

 

[Lena CE]

It is the natural end result of trend chasing. I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect in 10 years or so, Final Fantasy will either become a mainstream Devil May Cry type franchise, barely recognizable to older fans or will cease to exist except in remasters and cheap mobile titles.

Final Fantasy is more mainstream than Devil May Cry so what does this sentence even mean?

Also how are FFXI, FFXII, FFXIII and FFXIV even debatabley less RPG-like than the first 10 games? If someone draws the cutoff at XV or XVI I can agree/disagree but at least get a better idea of their perspective, but saying "whether that vision still applies is up for debate" is so silly to me. If we can debate those 4 listed games then we can debate the entire franchise as far as I'm concerned.

We have to draw the line somewhere and if XV/XVI is someone's line that's totally understandable even if I still think those games are great.

I appreciate that I'm just far looser with my definition of "what is Final Fantasy" than most because I grew up in the 5th and 6th generations of the franchise where it was changing a fuckton every single game in structure, art style, gameplay and progression. If you grew up with 1 thru 6 as they were releasing I can better understand having a more defined idea of what the franchise is or should be, but again if X is where we draw the line as undebatable and yet everything after that somehow is, I feel our definitions are a bit odd.

 

[Tonberry]

Maybe DMC was the wrong example, I wasn't aware it had such a small fanbase (which makes it even sillier that Square Enix is bringing in all of the DMC devs to make their games). But my point is that FF is on the path to become another ordinary action franchise or it will cease to exist, as the budgets for these games do not support them being niche JRPGs in 2025.

Ah, I didn’t think about the DMC devs working on 16, that makes your comparison slightly more understandable, I suppose.

 

[Strategist's icon Strategist Strategist]

Final Fantasy is more mainstream than Devil May Cry so what does this sentence even mean?

Also how are FFXI, FFXII, FFXIII and FFXIV even debatabley less RPG-like than the first 10 games? If someone draws the cutoff at XV or XVI I can agree/disagree but at least get a better idea of their perspective, but saying "whether that vision still applies is up for debate" is so silly to me. If we can debate those 4 listed games then we can debate the entire franchise as far as I'm concerned.

We have to draw the line somewhere and if XV/XVI is someone's line that's totally understandable even if I still think those games are great.

I appreciate that I'm just far looser with my definition of "what is Final Fantasy" than most because I grew up in the 5th and 6th generations of the franchise where it was changing a fuckton every single game in structure, art style, gameplay and progression. If you grew up with 1 thru 6 as they were releasing I can better understand having a more defined idea of what the franchise is or should be, but again if X is where we draw the line as undebatable and yet everything after that somehow is, I feel our definitions are a bit odd.

I made the cutoff at X because that was the cutoff of Sakaguchi's involvement in the franchise and it is pretty much undisputed that he wanted the games to be RPGs. But yeah XII and XIII are still in the vein of traditional FF for the most part. I haven't played XI or XIV but I've heard that XIV is pretty light on customization and RPG elements. Can't say for sure without playing it. MMOs are kind of a different beast to me, but I guess they count.

I do appreciate the loose structure to Final Fantasy, but to me it starts and ends with the world "Fantasy". Anything that is a disservice to that idea is not welcome. That may mean different things to different people, or some may even not care about that, but that is how I feel.

 

[SolemnlyDoc]

The problem of whether a game series should remain true and loyal to the original fans who made it popular or adapt to the new generation of players to remain relevant is always going to be debated.

My feeling is that the key is balance. A game series is not stone - its a river. It must flow or it'll become stagnant. But a river that forgets its source will dry up. Honor the roots that made the game beloved, but do not fear the winds of change. A wise gardener does not force a tree to remain small forever - he trims, he nurtures, and he allows it to grow strong in new ways. But if change comes only from fear, fear of losing popularity, fear of fading into history, then the spirit of the game will wither.

A game must change, yes, but with wisdom, not desperation. A game that respects both the old warriors and the young adventurers will stand the test of time.

 

[Lena CE]

Maybe DMC was the wrong example, I wasn't aware it had such a small fanbase (which makes it even sillier that Square Enix is bringing in all of the DMC devs to make their games). But my point is that FF is on the path to become another ordinary action franchise or it will cease to exist, as the budgets for these games do not support them being niche JRPGs in 2025.

Do you not see the paradox in lambasting Square Enix as supposedly chasing trends and yet they hire combat directors from a franchise less popular to make the new game simply because they think that person is really good at what they do and can elevate the current project?

So its silly to hire the right person for the job because a franchise they worked on prior is less popular? I urge you to not look into what projects many Final Fantasy alumni got their start if this is the line of thinking.

DMC isn't even a normal franchise and it is often considered a peak in its style of action game, a style that is RARELY ever imitated especially in the modern era. Ig you admitted its a bad comparison tho so no sense harping on it so much.

Point is that we can't simultaneously say that Square Enix is chasing trends and then admit that they're hiring staff that make less popular games lol. Popularity does not equate to quality anyways.

 

[Strategist's icon Strategist Strategist]

Do you not see the paradox in lambasting Square Enix as supposedly chasing trends and yet they hire combat directors from a franchise less popular to make the new game simply because they think that person is really good at what they do and can elevate the current project?

So its silly to hire the right person for the job because a franchise they worked on prior is less popular? I urge you to not look into what projects many Final Fantasy alumni got their start if this is the line of thinking.

DMC isn't even a normal franchise and it is often considered a peak in its style of action game, a style that is RARELY ever imitated especially in the modern era. Ig you admitted its a bad comparison tho so no sense harping on it so much.

Point is that we can't simultaneously say that Square Enix is chasing trends and then admit that they're hiring staff that make less popular games lol. Popularity does not equate to quality anyways.

I admire your lack of cynicism, I truly wish I could see things the way you do. All it indicates to me is that Final Fantasy is behind the ball in their trend chasing. They are now starting to adopt gaming paradigms from those Ubisoft/Zelda popularized such as the open world and exploration towers a decade after those features felt fresh. Maybe in 2035 they'll reflect what is popular nowadays.

 

[Pandaprewmaster325]

The problem of whether a game series should remain true and loyal to the original fans who made it popular or adapt to the new generation of players to remain relevant is always going to be debated.

My feeling is that the key is balance. A game series is not stone - its a river. It must flow or it'll become stagnant. But a river that forgets its source will dry up. Honor the roots that made the game beloved, but do not fear the winds of change. A wise gardener does not force a tree to remain small forever - he trims, he nurtures, and he allows it to grow strong in new ways. But if change comes only from fear, fear of losing popularity, fear of fading into history, then the spirit of the game will wither.

A game must change, yes, but with wisdom, not desperation. A game that respects both the old warriors and the young adventurers will stand the test of time.

I wholeheartedly agree it seems sometimes gamers complain about anything new and prefer old stuff until new stuff become old....its basically like this the base structure the franchise is built on has to be kept the same not even speaking about final fantasy just generally speaking that is games that seem to abandon what makes them great lose relevance look at CNC for example they started changing the economy system in red alert 3 and tried to appeal to the Esport scene and compete with starcraft it ended up making a decent RTS game but a terrible and I mean terrible CNC game it got even worse in CNC4 which was the death blow for the franchise by deviating from many aspects that made CNC well CNC....in my opinion some core parts of the identity can be improved as time goes on introduce new stuff that doesn't clash with the old design however game design can be difficult and is quite complicated topic you have to look at it from the developer perspective to get the full picture and how decisions are made , what is the vision etc all need to be defined clearly so you know what you are working on.

One thing I could mention is how slowly the active battle system was improved from introducing formations to the bars that signal this character can make a move to defending and more....all improvements that help the system stay fleshed out and unique in each new iteration same for summons whom in 4/5 didn't do much outside of combat but in 6 are core part of the game and in 8 also core part of the game and summons I think are must be in a FF game in my opinion the changes to summons helped make them have more impact on the game clearly a positive thing in my opinion and makes each entry unique however notice that all share the same formula , random encounters accompanied with a Active battle system , and linear storyline idk about modern final fantasy as I only played 1/2/4/5/6 (which is awesome)/7/8. And currently tactics but I need sometime to form a proper opinion about tactics as final fantasy is the type of game that starts pretty tame and takes a while to get going.

 

[Sir Auriel of Lionel]

It is the natural end result of trend chasing. I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect in 10 years or so, Final Fantasy will either become a mainstream Devil May Cry type franchise, barely recognizable to older fans or will cease to exist except in remasters and cheap mobile titles.

So is the main problem an active action combat system? I understand the appeal of it being simple and fast button mashing to cut through the grind that most older rpgs were built on for difficulty curve and length, that might have been a nagging critique stuck in Squares mind all the way back from their SNES days. And that could be what they think is what fights them from really grabbing "mainstream audience". If that's all I have to worry about instead of complaints like FFXIII being a hallway simulator, or bringing back random encounters (god I hate them please just let me run into them on screen) or mandatory mini games (I'm sorry but I hated Blitzball) then I'll take it. Just let me have an open map, towns to walk through, downtime and ability to chat with party mates in town/camp/bar, chocobos to ride, beautiful lands to traverse and vibrant wildlife to kill and I could possibly be happy. I won't over shoot for a great story or characters because I'm being greedy with my requests already. And while FFXII is my main favorite it's story and characters are pretty thin.

 

[Pandaprewmaster325]

Wait did I read that right? "Mainstream audience" isn't final fantasy one of the most if not the most famous Japanese RPG title? Having many many effects on the gaming landscape? Isn't it enough? No?

And the grinding isn't really that bad there is enough random encounters which guess what? Are a core part of final fantasy identity for you to level up enough to face anything well unless its FF5 or 1 where you do need a little bit of clapping monster cheeks to get by I think grinding is about the mindset I see it as a way of training and honing my skills.

But I think that's how most old RPGs work in diablo 2 for example leveling up is pretty slow but the game provides you with enough enemies to kill and extra dungeons and loot to find to get by I seen criticism of D4 having characters level up too quickly.

If the leveling up process in 8 wasn't so smooth then idk what is and in that game you can even halve the rate of random encounters for speed sake it has a downside but that's one way to hasten your run through the game and you can even do no encounters at all which I think is a horrible choice.

But final fantasy is a slow paced game shortest game (ff1) took me 25 hours to beat on level 35 faster paced games are more attention grabbing but I think its again part of the final fantasy experience the game being quite lengthy and not going under 20 hours