Dragon Ball died 11 years ago...

[CocaFeca]

Essentially when Kai ended, it was when the franchise no longer released quality stuff on tv, the og manga had long been concluded 20 years ago, but guess what? the tumour that is dragon ball super started to grow because of the success of the movies and toei's greed and necessity to milk the brand like in the 90s with the dbz movies, making what was once a beloved franchise, into a meme, a joke.

even worse than in the late 90s-early-2010s when after the disaster that was GT, there wasn't anything new for dragon ball on tv aside from Kai (love it or hate it, it was pretty much the best db show because of grabbing the best of Z and making it better, yes, even with the questionable visuals) there were only videogames that ranged from great to quite awful during that time period.

and the following year after the start of dbs, another tumour called Xenoverse 2 started to grow, unlike the first Xenoverse which didn't overstood it's welcome, support for xenoverse 2 simply never ended (at least until the next xenoverse releases and they milk that one for another decade), good for any game with gameplay and content worthwile, which if you've played Xenoverse you know that it has neither of those qualities, not even the music is good, at least graphics are decent besides the overly shiny characters, and yes, the "next-gen" graphics option is practically useless.

and if you didn't realize it by now, dbs has been on the exact same publication time as the og dragon ball if not more, and the anime has been on the radar for about much time as the og anime trilogy, if not more if we count the previous 2 movies, but aside from really good art in the manga, the ost in the anime (much of it being recycled from Kai tfc) and animation in the ToP, there's nothing to the manga or anime of dbs to make it good, the most praised arc (moro) is full of bullshit, moro being literally forgiven even tough he was around millions of years in prison thinking of nothing but gaining more power, even at the cost of hurting others, similar to cell (even being similar in it's final form design) but as bad as the cell saga was with it's asspulleries, it did at least have a decent message of passing the torch, that despite what a lot of people think, it actually carries until the buu saga, specifically when goku goes to train uub, that and the cell saga despite having it's fans and being considered better than the buu one, it was never defended the same way the moro arc was, even people who like it recognize that it was there when dragon ball started to lost it's spark, and also, cell was a being with at most, a few years of living, moro was as old as the gods, yet unlike cell he is forgiven by goku, even when jaco tells goku to kill him, because the context of giving the senzu bean to the enemy is different in both cases.


ever since kai ended, we haven't gotten anything of real quality consistently releasing, aside from like...4 videogames in the last 11 years (extreme butouden, Fusions, FighterZ, Super Dragon Ball Heroes) and even the most hyped anime game of all time: Sparking Zero, couldn't reach expectations, i guess with the new expansions the game might be better, spike chunsfot is definitely trying (unlike dimps) but the gameplay still isn't as good as Tenkaichi 3 or tag team.

In hindsight: continuing dragon ball never worked and it never will, the story ended 4 times already (the manga, dbz, gt, kai) and we are getting pretty much the exact amount of versions of battle of gods right now in less than 15 years (the movie, dbs anime, dbs manga, the new dbs), it's just sad to see, even worse now since they might as well do something with toriyama's other works like sandland, which if you didn't know, it's multimedia management was done by the same guy who wants to keep dragon ball around, pretty much forever, quality be damned, i just hope they never touch kajika or do something awful with Dr. Slump, we already know how bad toei and bandai can fuck things up.

 

[gwardojones]

I dunno, man, Super is still fun. Like nothing tops the original run, but it's still nice to see those characters again. And some of my favorite Vegeta moments are in Super. Sometimes it's nice to spend time with a friend, even if that friend is a little lame now.

 

[Zeo]

Imagine Moro case, then remember Ultra Ego and Black Freezer exist

I dont think they will get Arale story any more than the remake and Nekomajin will make anime fans confused if he shows up out of nowhere

Jaco is already part of the Super saga so he kinda got in the mess. Other Toriyama works may be too hidden gems to make new stuff but it depends of how much they want to milk Toriyama name (Kajika, Ackman, Cowa and Nekomajin may get animated shorts like Super Dragon Ball Heroes for a "Toriyama Legacy works" of some thing if they got all the rights)

Kintoki did got an expy in Super manga, tho

 

[SamanthaSamantha's icon]

I dunno, man, Super is still fun. Like nothing tops the original run, but it's still nice to see those characters again. And some of my favorite Vegeta moments are in Super. Sometimes it's nice to spend time with a friend, even if that friend is a little lame now.

Was it Super where they had that baseball episode? I loved how quirky that series could be at times, almost like a throwback to the first DB saga!

 

[gwardojones]

Was it Super where they had that baseball episode? I loved how quirky that series could be at times, almost like a throwback to the first DB saga!

Yeah! Episode 70 from what Google tells me :P

 

[Aldia Aldia]

almost like a throwback to the first DB saga!

You should check-out Dragon Ball Daima.

 

[SamanthaSamantha's icon]

You should check-out Dragon Ball Daima.

Yeah, been meaning to for a long while now. It always seems to slip right off of my mind.

Will try to do it now.

 

[Dyne]

I mean... we can just wish it back though right?

 

[Zeo]

Thats part of the problem with Super

Many Z die-hard fans miss the point that Super follows Toriyama style: Goku is a total idiot hero with some smart fighter moments instead of the badass idiot he was in Z like how he was in DB, ass Jaco is around, the silly cameo of Arale be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue, Jiren is the most powerful mortal in the multiverse and also the most boring character ever, etc

Thats how Toriyama did his works, with silly and weird stuff in the middle and some trolling here and there on his part

Daima was the final troll move he give us and many fans love it just for that. The silly troll stuff he added for the lulz, the 3/4 Fusion that never got introduced and instead we got canon SSJ 4 that destroyed many plot points in both Super and GT

How cant you love this guy way of thinking with his own works?

 

[CocaFeca]

Pretty sad that the franchise no longer even remember the classic era exists aside from putting kid goku in some games or making references via objects (like the tao pai pai pillar in Xenoverse)
It was already bad in the 2000s with so many dbz videogames and then kai completely ignoring the classic show, but now people remember it as if it were like daima, even worse because most people won't enjoy the gag heavy but also exciting and fun 16 and half first volumes, at most they will have the patence to watch toei's overly long version, and we don't even have retellings of the classic story in game form anymore.

it seems people don't know how well toriyama's humour used to be, not only in dragon ball, heck, even in neko majin where it feels forced, it still is miles funnier than daima, even GT had unironic funny moments that were actually funny instead of characters acting like a caricature of themselves despite the fact they're like 40+ both in their adult forms and even then they shouldn't act like that in their child forms, goku is more annoying nowadays than how pan ever was in gt...

 

[Dyne]

the original Dragonball is my favorite series by Toriyama.
And I know its just nostalgia but the original US English dub with the Bruce Faulkner score is my favorite version of DBZ. I dont enjoy Kai nearly as much. (I know, I know)

 

[X y b e r - S k u ll]

I'll agree Super is nowhere near as good as the original manga, nor the anime adaptations, but I can't really say I completely hate it either. I do think it had some genuinely good moments, but the inconsistent quality in art and animation, the overreliance on nostalgia bait and generally just being thematically weaker than the previous series are definitely marks against it.

I think a part of me wants to defend it because that was the series that finally got people (mostly toonami-generation people in English speaking countries) to finally drop this notion of Goku being basically Japan's version of Superman, or more superhero like in general, actually understanding his character and pointing out how genuinely bad of a job those original localisations did and the damage they did to peoples perceptions of Dragon Ball as a whole.

 

[CocaFeca]

Thats part of the problem with Super

Many Z die-hard fans miss the point that Super follows Toriyama style: Goku is a total idiot hero with some smart fighter moments instead of the badass idiot he was in Z like how he was in DB, ass Jaco is around, the silly cameo of Arale be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue, Jiren is the most powerful mortal in the multiverse and also the most boring character ever, etc

Thats how Toriyama did his works, with silly and weird stuff in the middle and some trolling here and there on his part

Daima was the final troll move he give us and many fans love it just for that. The silly troll stuff he added for the lulz, the 3/4 Fusion that never got introduced and instead we got canon SSJ 4 that destroyed many plot points in both Super and GT

How cant you love this guy way of thinking with his own works?

I get you're not referring to me, but i'm no "Z die-hard" i don't even like Z or the classic series direction and ways to make the events overly long (aside of some instances like the final kid buu fight) that's mostly why i preferr kai: good direction, dialogue, use of soundtrack and making the most memorable moments even better.

But even with the anime out of the equation, the og manga was nothing like people tend to point out, at most pilaf or someone would make a 4th wall joke, but that was it, even then, the silly humour was well made and had charisma during the first 2 volumes, then it became more action heavy while still maintaining that charisma, by the time we reach king piccolo, the story takes a more serious approach, all while still delivering on comedy

Both kajika and sandland are short stories that somewhat share that spark the classic dragon ball had mixed with an Artstyle more akin to toriyama's 90s look, both are short stories with a good use of characters, comedy, action and even some well placed meta jokes, also demons.
it seems sadly that most people when talking about toriyama at most have read the dragon ball manga, i'm honestly not a "100%" on tori's style of comedy, but i assure the classic stuff he made was miles better than what we get now, and not because of "old good, new bad" mentality, mostly because toriyama actually gave a damn when writing his stories, he even had issues with his pets health when writing for sandland, for crying out loud

And also, isn't dbs made by a different team? like gt?! It shares everything except the style of the original author.

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think a part of me wants to defend it because that was the series that finally got people (mostly toonami-generation people in English speaking countries) to finally drop this notion of Goku being basically Japan's version of Superman, or more superhero like in general, actually understanding his character and pointing out how genuinely bad of a job those original localisations did and the damage they did to peoples perceptions of Dragon Ball as a whole.

Wasn't Kai English dub exactly what you say? Actually having a good translation of db to english that respects the dialogue and dosen't dumb it down? heck, it shows that to this day people didn't gave Kai a chance, i get it's kind of a bad remaster in general and tfc came too late internationally (not to mention the treatment latin america got both in spanish and Portuguese) but i assure you, if you watch kai in the english dub, not from start to finish but even at least an episode like 94 or 160, you would then look at super and realize the quality is completely different, if not worse in the newer product, not to mention that if goku was already annoying in the movies, imagine suffering him through over 60 episodes until the ToP, when he at least starts to act a bit decently

 

[Zeo]

Toriyama did said that Toei Animation got most of his original work wrong in Z, and thats what most fans relate to his work instead of the original

Instead of martial arts with some comedy and silly moments we got "fast punchs, fast kicks, power-up, repeat" and Goku got turned into a hero instead of the adult with mind of a kid that just wanted to fight strong people for his own desire (something that Super fixed, and many hated)

The fillers didnt help with longer fights, but at least we did got episodes like Goku and Piccolo driving that goes well with something Toriyama could do

Also, most of the stuff on the anime was on Toei and Toyotaro hands since Toriyama only give them some notes and references for them to put the dots

It wasnt until Dragon Ball Evolution disappointment that he decided to get back and then we got Battle of the Gods

 

[X y b e r - S k u ll]

Wasn't Kai English dub exactly what you say? Actually having a good translation of db to english that respects the dialogue and dosen't dumb it down? heck, it shows that to this day people didn't gave Kai a chance, i get it's kind of a bad remaster in general and tfc came too late internationally (not to mention the treatment latin america got both in spanish and Portuguese) but i assure you, if you watch kai in the english dub, not from start to finish but even at least an episode like 94 or 160, you would then look at super and realize the quality is completely different, if not worse in the newer product, not to mention that if goku was already annoying in the movies, imagine suffering him through over 60 episodes until the ToP, when he at least starts to act a bit decently

Problem is most people forget there was two versions of the English dub for Kai. The one that aired on TV (which still has a tonne of censorship and weird dialogue changes) and the uncut, more accurate version they put on the DVD's/Blu-Ray's. There's a whole generation of kids from that era who still grew up with this weird perception of Goku and the series as a whole, repeating the same problems. Plus, like you said; a lot of people didn't give Kai a chance since they saw it as basically being just a repeat of what they grew up with.
So yes; that's why I continue to credit Super with breaking that perception, especially since for like 2 whole years it was only available subtitled, so people got an even more authentic experience.

 

[Netra]

I don't know, for me Dragon Ball end when they added the Z to the title lol.

I'm not saying everything that came after was bad, but I lost interest. I'd watched the three episodes in a row that aired on Saturdays and Sundays on TV but I never followed the story.

And as for the manga, I stopped there too. It's not like I don't like it but more because they stopped publishing them in my country.

 

[Burzuru Burzuru]

i made friends through xenoverse, so i don't think its all that bad.

 

[otogirisou]

No matter how bad dragon ball manga/anime is, it never make me mad because dragon ball never had any coherent story to begin with.

 

[CocaFeca]

Toriyama did said that Toei Animation got most of his original work wrong in Z, and thats what most fans relate to his work instead of the original

Instead of martial arts with some comedy and silly moments we got "fast punchs, fast kicks, power-up, repeat" and Goku got turned into a hero instead of the adult with mind of a kid that just wanted to fight strong people for his own desire (something that Super fixed, and many hated)

The fillers didnt help with longer fights, but at least we did got episodes like Goku and Piccolo driving that goes well with something Toriyama could do

Also, most of the stuff on the anime was on Toei and Toyotaro hands since Toriyama only give them some notes and references for them to put the dots

It wasnt until Dragon Ball Evolution disappointment that he decided to get back and then we got Battle of the Gods

I agree that the perception people have of db because of Z and all you said is valid (not to mention the overly long scenes that were just a few pages in the manga), with that said:

1: the manga all around has the same style of evolution in storytelling as the anime, it just doesn't feel 1:1 because stuff in the manga that was a few pages (or panels even) were stretched to 20 or so minutes, as iconic as those scenes are, goku turning into a super Saiyan or super saiyan 3 don't resemble the manga in anyway.

with that said, if you read the thing you actually get to understand when i'm coming from, and it's not just the transformations, in general the story in manga flows well and it takes itself relatively seriously, even in the buu saga which a lot say is "back to the roots" when it's actually pretty serious and with a balanced tone, it's mostly the anime in this last regard where it feels like a tonal whiplash due to the sheer number of episodes, which wasn't fixed in kai, but even then i wouldn't call the buu saga mostly comedy in manga form, even then, it has good comedy, not just goku acting like an annoying child, because let's face it: it's different being a childish adult than directly act like a manchild, goku in og manga was the former while in super is the latter

2: both db and db have this problem, not just Z, the original show stretches 16 and ½ volumes worth of comic into a 153 episodes + the og show also had repeated animation loops and repetitive choreography, which is not present in the manga since they are just a few panels as said in point 1, it's just not only Z where this happens, also the original had lame filler too and wasn't accurate since episode 1 (pilaf and it's gang appear as secondary villains in vol. 2 and only reappear a few times up to the king piccolo saga, then they never appear again, they aren't even the main villains in the first arc)

3: honestly, people need to understand that the perceptionan an author can have on it's work might change with time and not always for the better, a relevant example (since toriyama actually wanted to watch phantom menace back in 1999) is george lucas, he literally went back and made a lot of changes in the story and the releases of the clasic films, people didn't vibe with him at that time but eventually came around when the new era started back in 2014.

the perception an author can have on his work isn't always the right one to be honest, it was demonstrated with lucas since there where a few different sw projects aside from the movies that were wortwhile, like republic commandos or the 2003 show, this last one showing a different but really good vision of the sw universe.

Lucas got it served, but since at toei and bandai they're so incompetent, they never made something better than the original manga, and i don't really believe toriyama was 100% with making dragon ball really all that childish and stupid, i know he was pressured by the editorial, that we all already know of, but there's also the possibility that he simply didn't care, it's sad to read, i know, but giving that his other works didn't pay off after dr. Slump and dragon ball, he might as well have needed the money, i don't want to give him a bad rep, but he just didn't seem happy when making dragon Ball (final dialogue in manga, may 1995) or in a few photos seen years after, not to mention that the man struggled with pets with health issues as mentioned in the first page of sandland, he just didn't enjoy what he made because of constant stress, as seen always: your creation/s become bigger than you

Post automatically merged: 16 minutes ago

Problem is most people forget there was two versions of the English dub for Kai. The one that aired on TV (which still has a tonne of censorship and weird dialogue changes) and the uncut, more accurate version they put on the DVD's/Blu-Ray's. There's a whole generation of kids from that era who still grew up with this weird perception of Goku and the series as a whole, repeating the same problems. Plus, like you said; a lot of people didn't give Kai a chance since they saw it as basically being just a repeat of what they grew up with.
So yes; that's why I continue to credit Super with breaking that perception, especially since for like 2 whole years it was only available subtitled, so people got an even more authentic experience.

Ok, i give you that one, since back in the early to mid 2010s most people that weren't that into anime were too lazy or young to search for blu ray or dvd versions online or physical, instead opting to watch it on cable tv, but a question: if those same people watched super subtitled and got an authentic experience, why most people waited for buu-hen in 2017 instead of watching the "superior" japanese versions subtitled? I get it was still just redubbed dbz, but the whole "kai on tv is different than the one on blu ray" wasn't that well known aside from some forums or people commenting Yamamoto score in some videos, and as far as i know, the kai buu-hen might have actually been online before dbs

Post automatically merged: 3 minutes ago

I'm not trying to be douchie or an elitist really, it's just that the perception of dragon ball as a story or media is one i disagree with a lot of folks, but it doesn't feel right to insult those who enjoy the newer stuff from db, it's just that after so much time is hard to not feel jaded when a franchise you once really liked is in a state you don't vibe with, it doesn't always has to be bad, there are times we're you just don't agree or feel like it, but in the case of dragon ball i can't ignore it honestly, there was even a time were i treated the franchise as a joke while super was airing outside japan, and i was at the time the perfect demographic, i didn't even watch tfc because of that.