Bad franchise games that are good games actually

[RageBurner]

Going more old school, Chrono Cross was fine, just not a good Chrono Trigger sequel. The 3rd Birthday is a great third-person shooter, but it's not what Parasite Eve fans expected/wanted (and the story is incoherent). Streets of Rage 3 is good, but people wanted more melodic tracks I guess.

I agree that Chrono Cross would have fared better without any prior connection. It feels forced and cheapens things.

PE's sequelitis is a trainwreck. 2 and 3 should have been released as something else, so I wouldn't care for how middling they felt.

I don't think the real problem with SoR3 is the soundtrack, it's more like the difficulty changes from the western version if anything. Yeah the music doesn't hold a candle to Sor1 or 2 but it wasn't bad.

 

[moonbits]

Deus Ex The Invisible War is alright, I was certainly surprised by the negativity. Nowhere near as good as the original.

F.E.A.R. 2 was alright as well, "consolized" but still entertaining. It just had the misfortune of being the sequel to a juggernaut FPS

(Note: Sequel to PC games that come out on consoles)

 

[Neb Lleb]

How come? Because DmC: DMC at its core is a good game. Good gameplay, good designs, good bosses. Everything about it at it's core is a good game. I think people need to swallow their pride and realise that maybe they're just a bit too elitist sometimes.

COPE.

 

[destinyduelist]

COPE.

I love when people realise they're wrong and have no response

 

[Tonberry]

I'd always argue Dark Souls 2 is a good candidate when it comes to this definition.

Compared to Dark Souls 1 it feels much more haphazardly put together, with a somewhat more generic fantasy setting, making it almost feel like a fantasy game from the 80s made in 2014, and even a bit cartoony, which isn't really indicative of the typical Dark Souls experience which has always had a highly stylized atmosphere pretty unique to the series.
But I think it's a pretty great game on its own, with a lot of interesting ideas mixed in.
Shame the final product was neutered so much though. There are still crumbs scattered throughout the game which hints at stuff like a much more interactable world, and tons of little details and hidden mechanics all over, but in many ways it doesn't "feel" like Dark Souls (unless all that matters to you is rolling around opening chests and fighting big bosses, which is valid in its own way).
I still personally like it more than Dark Souls 3, but even I admit that DS3 has more of the typical Dark Souls "feel".

Typing all that out kinda makes me want to replay it again with that newfangled cool lighting overhaul mod.

 

[WarpKaiser]

Deus Ex The Invisible War is alright, I was certainly surprised by the negativity. Nowhere near as good as the original.

Gameplay wise, DX:IW is a bad game, no just in comparison with it's predecessor but in general. Criticism like the small size of the levels to the point that some feel claustrophobic; universal ammo, which limits your options in weapons and the amount of ammo you can have and use; Bad balance with augments, you can become OP at beginning of the game with the strength augment. Story wise is dumb in some aspects and clever in others, so is mixed bag. And part of the console-ized. Every level load, the game crashes and restarts again to save memory. Something that was apparently necessary for the xbox but useless and annoying in the pc port as it resets the anti-alias setting.
The is more to say, but I think with this is enough. And some of the criticism may seem small, but there is a lot, and they stack, and even without bringing up the IP or comparing it with the original.

 

[Bakuma1997]

I unironically LOVE megaman 8, as a kid i never cared for dub vs sub bullspit, so the cheese of the dub felt natural, regarding gameplay people that complains about the game being "Dumbed down" never reached Wily tower neither dealt with the bosses out of order (FUCK...YOU... TENGUMAN), but of you bother to find the bolts and invest them in the correct pieces you will become broken, granted, i give a pass at critics about the lack of E-tanks (You instead have a single use per level Rush help that MAY give you heals at all, let alone big ones) but at the end of the day i still enjoyed it and still do so today

 

[Leifang]

A lot of times with so-so games in franchise, I hear "it's a good GAME but it's a bad [franchise name] game". And usually I disagree. I have arguments for the other way around:

Mortal Kombat Mythologies: Sub-Zero is a good Mortal Kombat, but a terrible game... it does everything you want from classic MK (atmosphere, graphics and combat style, lore, cheesy FMVs and characters are top) but it's barely playable. I heard that MK Special Forces was the opposite: actually decent game, but pretty horrible as Mortal Kombat (could have changed Jax to anybody else and get an okay generic third person action).

Tomb Raider Angel of Darkness and Legend have the same issue: AoD is a horrible unplayable mess, but it has decent Tomb Raider lore, and style-wise, it's arguably the best-designed Lara and overall vibes are good. Just don't try actually playing it, lol! Even remaster can't save the jank. But Tomb Raider Legend is an amazing... linear action game. It's a good shooter, okay platformer, but there's basically zero exploration or hard jumps (platforming is more Assassin's Creed style). Feels like a generic late PS2 era game with Lara Croft skin.

Speaking of that franchise, I heard a lot that modern RPG-like Assassin's Creed would be better with a different name, and I disagree. These games always had roleplaying elements, and there's no universe where I would accept Unity as a better game OR even better Assassin's Creed next to Origins (which feels like playing Ezio trilogy with worse parkour but better combat) or Odyssey (which is Black Flag but in ancient Greece, ship combat is unparalleled).

And the hill I chose as last stand is Mass Effect Andromeda: I cannot agree with people who say it would be a better game if it wasn't connected to the franchise! On its own, outside of combat and puzzles, it's pretty bad. Broken on release, buggy and poorly-optimized, with not enough enemy or NPC variation and a lot of copy-paste, rushed areas and quests. But all the exploration, the feel of uncovering the galaxy and meeting people in faraway colonies while bonding with your crew and having a very good dialogue system and style makes for a good Mass Effect experience, or just decent Bioware RPG. It also looks gorgeous. And actually feels closest to the first ME, but with worse writing, even more jank, but amazing combat.

 

[iamthemilkman]

DmC, Bayonetta 3, Quake 4, Mercenaries 2, Risen 2, Fallout 4, The Bureau: XCOM Declassified, The Chronicles of Riddick: Assault on Dark Athena, Destroy All Humans: Path of the Furon, Mirror's Edge: Catalyst, Lost Planet 3, Silent Hill: Homecoming, Silent Hill: Downpour, Deadly Premonition 2, Elex 2, Dead Rising 4

The most controversial one is probably Dead Rising 4. I've been a fan of Dead Rising since the beginning and while Dead Rising 4 was a far more simplistic game than the original, it plays well, is still a lot of fun, and I love the Christmas setting.

 

[Leifang]

DmC, Bayonetta 3, Quake 4, Mercenaries 2, Risen 2, Fallout 4, The Bureau: XCOM Declassified, The Chronicles of Riddick: Assault on Dark Athena, Destroy All Humans: Path of the Furon, Mirror's Edge: Catalyst, Lost Planet 3, Silent Hill: Homecoming, Silent Hill: Downpour, Deadly Premonition 2, Elex 2, Dead Rising 4

The most controversial one is probably Dead Rising 4. I've been a fan of Dead Rising since the beginning and while Dead Rising 4 was a far more simplistic game than the original, it played well and I love the Christmas setting.

I need to play Bureau, I love BOTH X-Com and Mass Effect and am always craving third person shooters... but heard it got a lot of flak for tryharding cover shootering when everything tried. xD

Also I loved Silent Hill Homecoming, it tries too much to repeat 2 but has worse atmosphere but better combat. Melee plays like Dynasty Warriors for some reason, with normal and charge attack combos.

 

[Leon]

I unironically LOVE megaman 8, as a kid i never cared for dub vs sub bullspit, so the cheese of the dub felt natural, regarding gameplay people that complains about the game being "Dumbed down" never reached Wily tower neither dealt with the bosses out of order (FUCK...YOU... TENGUMAN), but of you bother to find the bolts and invest them in the correct pieces you will become broken, granted, i give a pass at critics about the lack of E-tanks (You instead have a single use per level Rush help that MAY give you heals at all, let alone big ones) but at the end of the day i still enjoyed it and still do so today

I'll be honest, i've never heard anyone speak badly of megaman 8, megaman 7 yes but not 8 and most people without a stick up their backside actually enjoys the cheesiness of the dub, same with megaman x4.

Heck i know more people who prefer the original dub of castlevania symphony of the night over the re-dubbing job from newer versions.

 

[iamthemilkman]

I need to play Bureau, I love BOTH X-Com and Mass Effect and am always craving third person shooters... but heard it got a lot of flak for tryharding cover shootering when everything tried. xD

Also I loved Silent Hill Homecoming, it tries too much to repeat 2 but has worse atmosphere but better combat. Melee plays like Dynasty Warriors for some reason, with normal and charge attack combos.

The Bureau is a lot like Mass Effect. You have your hub between missions like the Normandy, you have conversations and dialogue options, and while it's an action game at its heart, it still has tactical options for XCOM fans who want to play it more like an XCOM game than a stop & pop cover shooter.

I remember buying Homecoming when it came out, initially pretty underwhelmed by it. I had only played SH1 and SH2, loving both, but I missed out on SH3 in my youth, so I was comparing it to SH1 and 2 and it fell short of those, and it very much still does. That said, I still think it's a good game, just not a great Silent Hill game. I do think Downpour was the better of the two.

 

[Neb Lleb]

I love when people realise they're wrong and have no response

I love when hardcore DmC Apologists misrepresent the crud out of a game and insult people who are based in reality. Like, it's okay to enjoy DmC, and I'd happily sympathise with people who acknowledge the faults and enjoy it any way (like how I'm a fan of Silent Hill: Homecoming and Resident Evil 5 despite their faults) but come on. Most people's tolerance levels have limits, mine included.

And yes, Devil May Cry 2 is also bad, but for different reasons. Not the worst sequel (F.3.A.R. and Resident Evil 6 for me), but still.

 

[RageBurner]

I unironically LOVE megaman 8, as a kid i never cared for dub vs sub bullspit, so the cheese of the dub felt natural, regarding gameplay people that complains about the game being "Dumbed down" never reached Wily tower neither dealt with the bosses out of order (FUCK...YOU... TENGUMAN), but of you bother to find the bolts and invest them in the correct pieces you will become broken, granted, i give a pass at critics about the lack of E-tanks (You instead have a single use per level Rush help that MAY give you heals at all, let alone big ones) but at the end of the day i still enjoyed it and still do so today

Mega Man 8 is legit good. The dub kills me a little every time I listen to it, though.

 

[destinyduelist]

I love when hardcore DmC Apologists misrepresent the crud out of a game and insult people who are based in reality. Like, it's okay to enjoy DmC, and I'd happily sympathise with people who acknowledge the faults and enjoy it any way (like how I'm a fan of Silent Hill: Homecoming and Resident Evil 5 despite their faults) but come on. Most people's tolerance levels have limits, mine included.

And yes, Devil May Cry 2 is also bad, but for different reasons. Not the worst sequel (F.3.A.R. and Resident Evil 6 for me), but still.

What are we misinterpreting exactly? I never said it's a good DMC game, I said as a game its good, as in the point of the thread.

 

[Bakuma1997]

Mega Man 8 is legit good. The dub kills me a little every time I listen to it, though.

i heard people online complain about it in Gamefaqs (Most reviews are in yellow), they miss it

Also i was going to ask why you commented twice until i remembered Leon also has Guts as PFP

 

[Leon]

i heard people online complain about it in Gamefaqs (Most reviews are in yellow), they miss it

Also i was going to ask why you commented twice until i remembered Leon also has Guts as PFP

Probably will change it soon, your not the first one to get that mixed up.

 

[Leifang]

I love when hardcore DmC Apologists misrepresent the crud out of a game and insult people who are based in reality. Like, it's okay to enjoy DmC, and I'd happily sympathise with people who acknowledge the faults and enjoy it any way (like how I'm a fan of Silent Hill: Homecoming and Resident Evil 5 despite their faults) but come on. Most people's tolerance levels have limits, mine included.

And yes, Devil May Cry 2 is also bad, but for different reasons. Not the worst sequel (F.3.A.R. and Resident Evil 6 for me), but still.

I am not sure why people have to get mad at others liking the game they don't, really.

Funniest is folks often saying RE4/5/6 are different when it's the same game reskinned. It plays the same... remaster blurred everything even more with 4 now having 5's boat levels.

They're all good BTW, RE was always action where you're special forces blowing up zombies with grenade launcher, it's not Silent Hill where you were a clumsy everydude swinging an iron pipe at eldritch horror.

All DMC also plays the same to me, and Dante is kinda tryhard emo in every design. Fun hack and slash tho.

Same way I will never understand what's the difference between each Counter-Strike, why CZ is hated, Source is ignored and GO was loved when it's just AK on de_dust2 anyway.

 

[Yousef's iconYousef]

I'd always argue Dark Souls 2 is a good candidate when it comes to this definition.

Compared to Dark Souls 1 it feels much more haphazardly put together, with a somewhat more generic fantasy setting, making it almost feel like a fantasy game from the 80s made in 2014, and even a bit cartoony, which isn't really indicative of the typical Dark Souls experience which has always had a highly stylized atmosphere pretty unique to the series.
But I think it's a pretty great game on its own, with a lot of interesting ideas mixed in.
Shame the final product was neutered so much though. There are still crumbs scattered throughout the game which hints at stuff like a much more interactable world, and tons of little details and hidden mechanics all over, but in many ways it doesn't "feel" like Dark Souls (unless all that matters to you is rolling around opening chests and fighting big bosses, which is valid in its own way).
I still personally like it more than Dark Souls 3, but even I admit that DS3 has more of the typical Dark Souls "feel".

Typing all that out kinda makes me want to replay it again with that newfangled cool lighting overhaul mod.

DS2 appreciation

 

[Nidoking's iconNidoking]

Oh boy, I have quite a few of these but the big one for me...

DARK SOULS II
I will die on this hill, Dark Souls II is NOT a bad game, it's actually extremely high quality with a ton of content and creativity, highly varied obstacles and environments, an absurd amount of unique items and spells to play with, and overwhelmingly the best PvP in the series. The problem is it has some pretty glaring, objective flaws that stick out a LOT more because it's being stacked against DeS and DS1, two games that are very highly regarded and set certain expectation. DS2 outright fails at a lot of those games' best assets, but makes up for it in spades in other ways. It also introduced tons of new mechanics that were (mostly) excellent additions; powerstancing, bonfire ascetics, level respeccing, lowering spell requirements, a proper torch system, pharros lockstones (and the associated covenants), twinblades, not getting kicked from the game for a DC, greatly improved equipment upgrades, actually meaningful changes in NG+, breakable chests and doors, etc.

That last one, in particular, does not get enough love... the environmental interactivity in general is crazy, like the door in Forest of Fallen Giants that will NOT open normally and isn't locked; instead, you 'knock' on it by hitting it, and the enemy inside opens it. Or the wooden door in the same area that can be opened by a key you get later... or you can break it down early. The pools of oil in the Gutter and Black Gulch that hide enemies inside them, but if you light them on fire the enemy slowly dies, or the Gutter's ingenious level design encouraging systematic torch use and sconce lighting, even rewarding you with an event if you light all of them. I'd even mention the windmill. Sure, it wasn't super well implemented, but the actual use of the environment, an optional action you can take to literally change the entire area and reduce its difficulty by removing the poison water? Well done or not, it's very creative.

Also, the little touches... the weird stuff, like the Shulva tree that repairs your equipment instantly, but only if you whip it. They even include a notched whip in the room as a hint. How about the crypt? There's a semi-major NPC who tells you immediately not to produce light, even though the area is really dark; he remains friendly and even helpful if you listen to him, and even his body guards remain passive.... but if you light a torch? They're all coming for you. I particularly love the first merchant and how his quest works, where he's this humble and crestfallen merchant who offers a small selection, but the more you spend the bigger his stock is... and the more pompous he is as a result. Despite this, though? The 'happier' and more successful he is, the more he loses himself, the further he gets from who he really was and what he wanted... and the further his humanity dies. Then, of course, Lucatiel; she's a masterfully done NPC that really deserves a lot more love.

DS2 is simply a fantastic game that has so much to offer, but as a SOULS game? It's... really actually quite different, especially on the expectations side when compared to the previous entries. It feels less horror and more adventurous. Less sorrowful and more hopeful. The areas are far more 'video gamey' and linear, while the world is a lot less concerned with being intricately interwoven and immersive. This game wants to be fun and full of lots to find and lots to do, it wants you to go on adventures and find treasure and take down fierce enemies to feel glorious.

Some others I'd like to mention more briefly...

DmC: Devil may Cry AND Devil May Cry 2: They're both really fun and have a lot of great stuff in them. DmC in particular has some amazing gameplay and some really fun weapons, it's just... very different and at times incredibly cringey. DMC2 is a lot 'closer' but just different enough to feel off, they drastically alter Dante into a far more series and brooding character, and it can be pretty 'grindy.' There's so many unique fights and moments, though, and both characters not only playing very differently but having very different playthroughs (even different final bosses) was awesome.

Twisted Metal 4: This game is such a blast to play with so much charm and just feels... fun. It's very playful and colorful, exploding with personality and fast, frantic gameplay. Some of the best maps in the series come from this game, and there's very few maps that aren't at least good, and there's just a lot of content. It's VERY different from the earlier entries, and sometimes borders on character assassination, but it's just so enjoyable. Also, a particularly killer soundtrack.

Super Mario Bros. 2: Considering it is LITERALLY not a Mario game originally it's going to be very, very different... but it's just a really, really good game with a lot of charm. That said, it did add a lot to the Mario universe going forward and gave us some of the greatest enemies in the franchise (Shy Guys, anyone? Ninjies?) Also, it's just a LOT more varied in its gameplay than the first SMB. I love the first SMB, but I think between SMB3 giving us the same thing as the first but WAAAY more and perfected, and SMB2 offering something entirely different, there's a lot of reason to give this one a fair shot.

 

[UnDubious]

RE was always action where you're special forces blowing up zombies with grenade launcher, it's not Silent Hill where you were a clumsy everydude swinging an iron pipe at eldritch horror.

Not really. RE1 and 2 were more action-adventure than action, same as the entire first wave of survival horror games. 3 as well to a degree. It didn't become a really action-oriented series until RE4.

 

[Leifang]

Not really. RE1 and 2 were more action-adventure than action, same as the entire first wave of survival horror games. 3 as well to a degree. It didn't become a really action-oriented series until RE4.

Silent Hill fans mocked Resident Evil fandom by saying it's "games where you blow up zombies with grenade launcher", RE1 was a horror game, RE2 as you say, was more or action-adventure with balance between puzzles and combat, and RE3 was very action-like already.

But yeah RE4, changed the view and ammo spawn system, so now it made more sense shooting everything instead of trying to dodge enemies, but that's my point, things people usually complain about in 5 and 6 are things 4 changed. This trilogy has the same gameplay.

And people who say it was more horror than action are just parroting what they heard, from Resident Evil 2 onwards it focused more on blowing things up (though even RE1 had unlockable infinite rocket launcher for kicks).

 

[Neb Lleb]

I am not sure why people have to get mad at others liking the game they don't, really.

Funniest is folks often saying RE4/5/6 are different when it's the same game reskinned. It plays the same... remaster blurred everything even more with 4 now having 5's boat levels.

They're all good BTW, RE was always action where you're special forces blowing up zombies with grenade launcher, it's not Silent Hill where you were a clumsy everydude swinging an iron pipe at eldritch horror.

And another Die-Hard Apologist rears his ugly head. Despite the protagonists being specialised SWAT officers and the powerful weapons you get, Resident Evil was NEVER action and 4, 5 and especially 6 are not the same. Have you ever realised that although the gameplay between titles is similar, the context in which the gameplay is placed is either slightly worse or way worse?
See, Apologists like these are the worst because they don't accept that they're in the minority, they have to misrepresent the living daylights out of the games they're attracted to because they have to stick it to the popular consensus.


Thing is; there's nothing wrong with liking games like Resident Evil 5 and 6 or DmC. But when you're so attached to them that you have to stick it to others by misrepresenting stuff to justify your beliefs, that's when my patience runs dry. It reminds me of this, but unironically:

 

[WarpKaiser]

They're all good BTW, RE was always action where you're special forces blowing up zombies with grenade launcher, it's not Silent Hill where you were a clumsy everydude swinging an iron pipe at eldritch horror.

I recent people talking shit about SH combat, saying that is bad for either reason. Sure SH1 is janky, maybe because of the PS1 limitations. But SH2 is good and SH3 is perfect. They fuck up with SH4 though. They removed the tank controls, the fix camera and worst, the camera instead of orbiting around the player axis like any other game, it orbits around its own axis.

Same way I will never understand what's the difference between each Counter-Strike, why CZ is hated, Source is ignored and GO was loved when it's just AK on de_dust2 anyway.

I think the complain at least from my part is that CZ in just 1.6 with prettier graphics and doesn't offer anything new beyond those annoying and repetitive missions. Source movements are just sluggish and I didn't play GO or 2.

Super Mario Bros. 2: Considering it is LITERALLY not a Mario game originally it's going to be very, very different... but it's just a really, really good game with a lot of charm. That said, it did add a lot to the Mario universe going forward and gave us some of the greatest enemies in the franchise (Shy Guys, anyone? Ninjies?) Also, it's just a LOT more varied in its gameplay than the first SMB. I love the first SMB, but I think between SMB3 giving us the same thing as the first but WAAAY more and perfected, and SMB2 offering something entirely different, there's a lot of reason to give this one a fair shot.

Not really, I believe Doki Doki Panic was made by some of the same people who worked on SMB1. While SMB2JP was just SMB1 with more difficult levels. Nintendo of America did the wise decision of reskin DDP into SMB2USA. Do really people hate SMB2USA? I always though of it as an awesome game.

But yeah RE4, changed the view and ammo spawn system, so now it made more sense shooting everything instead of trying to dodge enemies, but that's my point, things people usually complain about in 5 and 6 are things 4 changed. This trilogy has the same gameplay.

RE4 has adaptive difficulty, but you can run out of ammo anyway. That's way they made the knife unbreakable and easy to access.

And people who say it was more horror than action are just parroting what they heard, from Resident Evil 2 onwards it focused more on blowing things up (though even RE1 had unlockable infinite rocket launcher for kicks).

I didn't play 5 and onwards, and just played a little of 2 and 3. However my impression is that RE1 is a horror puzzle game with some barebones combat mechanics. An adventure game if you will, Like Grim Fandango but with guns. 3, though I didn't play enough of it, already felt like an action game. 4 already solidify itself as one. And I don't think the camera has anything to do with it. because they keep the tank controls.
I think the main issue with people discussing RE genre shift is that they ignore their predecessors. Alone in the Dark from '92 and BioForge from '95. Understand that the pre-rendered backgrounds was a necessity to have more detailed backgrounds and character models. Not to make things more scary.

 

[destinyduelist]

See, Apologists like these are the worst because they don't accept that they're in the minority

But YOU'RE in the minority? Ask anyone about DMC DmC? I hate to burst your bubble but it's not 2013 anymore and we don't get our opinions from YouTube anymore either, just go replay the game. I'm a DMC fan, the reboot plays exactly like most modern DMC games. Sure its significantly easier, and the style meter is a bit messed up, but to say it's gameplay is as bad as dmc2 is just outing yourself for either never having played it or played it for a bit when it came out, hated it, and then never played again. I did the same until a few years ago, I was a pure hater but I gave it a chance and found out hey this plays exactly like how most games in the genre play, if not better. You can only misinterpret meaning, as in story, which we all agree the reboot has an abysmal story and awful characters. The point is the enemy design, gameplay and bosses. A good chunk of the reboot has good design and good bosses and a fairly alright ost.
Sorry if I come across as aggressive, you're just the first person I've ever met that has this opinion, so I like to debate and see the other side of the argument, but so far you've given absolutely zero points other than "well I didn't like it so it's a 0/10 game so yeah!" I just think you're confused and you're misinterpreting my arguments.
Legit, take a look at the first boss in the reboot, the entire setpiece with the carnival and the giant demon is cool as fuck, DMC is NOT a serious series, I'm sorry to tell you this but even in the mainline games DMC is NOT serious, I don't know what you interpreted the series as but a guy eating pizza shirtless in the opening of DMC3 and then spouting some corny nonsense is not the guy you might think he is. DMC is unserious and fun and just stupid nonsense, I implore you to replay the entire series again and see for yourself. In fact a reason people hate DMC2 is because Dante is so serious for no reason, he's not a stoic badass type character, he's a goofy cornball just like the entire series is. It's campy and ridiculous and that's why we love it.
Also, as for the other persons take on RE I agree with you, RE1-3 are very different from 4 and then 5 is even more different. I genuinely dislike 5 and think it's only redeeming quality is the co-op, which if you play it alone without a friend you'll see just how bad of a story it really has. 6 is just abysmal, I wish I never played that game.
But to say 4-6 is anywhere near the original games, or even worse the masterpiece that is RE1 on GameCube/PS2 is just outright wrong.