Why are antagonists in western media portrayed as being ugly?

[JackNoir413]

Because evil is ugly and virtue is beautiful.
Aristotle talks about this.
(Maybe)

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

Because evil is ugly and virtue is beautiful.
Aristotle talks about this.
(Maybe)

Ugly as in a metaphorical way I believe.

 

[_oBSOLEte_]

Beauty standards have varied a lot through history. It's hard to think that your genetic definition of it holds any ground. Specially today when humans are literally mesmerized non-stop by advertisement. It's a cultural object. The reptilian side of sexual attraction would be mostly driven by smells, but being human, we ignore it most of the time and do sex recreatively.

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

Beauty standards have varied a lot through history. It's hard to think that your genetic definition of it holds any ground. Specially today when humans are literally mesmerized non-stop by advertisement. It's a cultural object. The reptilian side of sexual attraction would be mostly driven by smells, but being human, we ignore it most of the time and do sex recreatively.

You've basically summarised Brave New World quite perfectly.

 

[_oBSOLEte_]

Baron Harkonen is, beyond his weight, a symbol of opullence, over-consumption and hedonism I think.

Baron Harkonen is the unsung hero of the Dune cycle. Like Idaho, he's another immortal recurring figure, only killed by Alia the Abomination, a reincarnation of himself. The allfather. The point of all the books in the cycle is that he never was the "vilain".

 

[Gorse]

(Is there a reason this thread was stickied...?)

Something I think that's important to note is that you can easily create a fictional character that isn't traditionally "attractive" in-universe, but is still visually-appealing for the audience:

All these people would be pretty ugly IRL, but because they've been designed well, we find them appealing and interesting to look at as fictional characters. They're not meant to look realistic – they're meant to give us certain visual shorthands that we can ascribe archetypes too, like "old woman" or "fat man", and which then go on to inform aspects of their personalities. That's strong character design 101, baby!

Of course, you can go the other way, too, and make people who would otherwise be attractive IRL into ugly monsters, which often happens when we try to make characters "realistic":

Yikes, are those a bunch of uggos! Maybe their real-world equivalents would be attractive, but in a fictional medium, they're brutish, dead-eyed, wrinkly, creepy creations. Because they try to capture what "really exists" in a fictional medium through imperfect technology, they trigger the "THAT'S NOT RIGHT" signal in our brains, and leap face-first into the brick wall at the bottom of the uncanny valley. What can you tell me about these characters' personalities just by looking at them?

You shouldn't read too much real-world subtext into fiction. It's fiction. It's made-up imaginary nonsense – all of it! It doesn't have to be real, or to reflect reality. It can, of course, but you should focus more on whether or not the media itself is engaging, well-executed, and of a general high quality, not whether it affirms your real-world beliefs. (About anything.)

Fiction is an exaggeration of the real world, not a reflection of it. That's why our heroes and heroines have thin waists and bulging pectoral muscles and large breasts and smooth hair and small noses and clear skin. That's what we – most of us – want to see, on a biological level, a psychological one, a societal one, whatever. If you're really seeking out a representation of a "realistic" human, warts and all, look in a mirror.

 

[PrismRed]

For everyone else who's still not convinced, remember that this... person here is a protagonist.

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

(Is there a reason this thread was stickied...?)

No idea but I'm flattered.

Maybe for trendy topics and I expect it to be removed if it has no messages for a while.

Of course, you can go the other way, too, and make people who would otherwise be attractive IRL into ugly monsters, which often happens when we try to make characters "realistic":

I really dislike the "uncanny valley" video games are going through in the last two gens.

Sure, Kratos looked "realistic" (for a PS2 game) but they were all conscious these were video games.

Street Fighter shines the best when it doesn't look realistic (sorry Street Fighter 1&2 but I'm not as fan as Alpha and III art style-wise). IV salvaged itself with the Cel shading despite the ridiculous muscular characters but V and VI have nothing interesting beyond the clothes.

I absolutely despise that they used the RE engine for VI. It's not meant for funky fighting games but made for horror games...

SFIII had some realism compared to Alpha but it had style which V and VI seems to lack sadly (even if the later reintroduced the street art aesthetic).

You shouldn't read too much real-world subtext into fiction. It's fiction. It's made-up imaginary nonsense – all of it! It doesn't have to be real, or to reflect reality. It can, of course, but you should focus more on whether or not the media itself is engaging, well-executed, and of a general high quality, not whether it affirms your real-world beliefs. (About anything.)

And I miss when video games were self conscious about being videogames. The search for realism has been detrimental for the medium in my opinion.

Fiction is an exaggeration of the real world, not a reflection of it. That's why our heroes and heroines have thin waists and bulging pectoral muscles and large breasts and smooth hair and small noses and clear skin. That's what we – most of us – want to see. If you're really seeking out a representation of a "realistic" human, warts and all, look in a mirror.

Thus why cartoon and anime characters all had big eyes and big hands.

Post automatically merged: Mar 25, 2025

For everyone else who's still not convinced, remember that this... person here is a protagonist.

View attachment 48270

What about

 

[YuriSukiSan]

It should be the fundamental education to tell not to judge people solely on appearance but rather on their behaviour.

I dislike how inclusiveness (or inclusivity) is done because I feel that true inclusion is not actually achieved and many groups are still left and ignored but this isn't the subject.


While it may be true for reproduction (we seek, as heterosexual male of course, females that look like they could carry offspring) but this is our basic reptilian brain doing that. It's probably why sadly when someone looks sick or disabled they'd have a hard time finding a mate as evolution would make people reproduce with the better candidates and not carry genetic defects that may "spoil" the gene pool.

We're evolved enough to know to bypass some of these and still be friendly towards those who don't fulfil our attraction.


Like Mens sana in corpore sano? I see what you mean although mocking people for their appearance is, to my view, a low blow.

I feel like that there's a line between encouraging people to do efforts and having a toxic behaviour towards others (especially in Asia where in several cultures they are even worse towards overweight people and even encourage young women to go through aesthetic surgery).

There's a good middle ground between toxicity with body shape and body positivity claiming that being obese (not overweight, obese as in the medical condition) isn't a bad thing and that society should change around them.

Too bad that people using the "Gigachad" meme nowadays are using it as an Internet argument weapon ("me good you bad" kind of argument) rather than an encouragement towards others.


I barely know the story but thanks for telling.

Baron Harkonen is, beyond his weight, a symbol of opullence, over-consumption and hedonism I think.

Almost like a "Soviet movie villain that portrays the rich imperialist" in a way.

I don't think there should be forced inclusion either, when I say inclusion I generally mean a more open minded approach to stories and character telling rather than a cookie cutter Hero. I don't like hamfisted inclusion or tickbox characters, either.. or the state of the modern industry. Generally what I was trying to get at is that positive qualities in people are what inspire others and that's what artists will focus on for heroic characters. Being lazy slobby slob isn't really all that inspiring and heroic. That doesn't mean you can't have a fat character with good qualities, it just means when they're conjuring up hero's in fiction they tend to focus on positive traits and exaggerate them for effect.

Gorses post summed it far better than I did. And, my post isn't directed at anyone in particular on this forum. It's just trying to emphasize the point, lazy, slobby, fatty fatties who don't exercise aren't the image we conjure up when we think of positive traits. Baron Harkonen is a perfect example of that like you said!

 

[Antilocal123]

For everyone else who's still not convinced, remember that this... person here is a protagonist.

View attachment 48270

How’d you get this image of me wtf

 

[_oBSOLEte_]

I don't think there should be forced inclusion either, when I say inclusion I generally mean a more open minded approach to stories and character telling rather than a cookie cutter Hero. I don't like hamfisted inclusion or tickbox characters, either.. or the state of the modern industry. Generally what I was trying to get at is that positive qualities in people are what inspire others and that's what artists will focus on for heroic characters. Being lazy slobby slob isn't really all that inspiring and heroic. That doesn't mean you can't have a fat character with good qualities, it just means when they're conjuring up hero's in fiction they tend to focus on positive traits and exaggerate them for effect.

Gorses post summed it far better than I did. And, my post isn't directed at anyone in particular on this forum. It's just trying to emphasize the point, lazy, slobby, fatty fatties who don't exercise aren't the image we conjure up when we think of positive traits. Baron Harkonen is a perfect example of that like you said!

Hamfisted inclusion of hypersexualized caracters for fan service to sell games to teens was also a problem, and just the same kind of tickbox some people complain about when talking about modern gaming.

And when games got more gritty, realistic and mature, those same teens who didn't grow up like the rest of us started to complain about it. Of all the shit that happens in the industry, from lack of QC to predatory monetization and AI asset flips, it's quite sad they just focused on being trolled by DEI this and pronoun that in their modern slop.

And again, people should actually read Dune sometime, so that they'd understand better all the nuances of the baron Harkonnen. It's pretty ironic that you guys think he's the vilain of the story when compared to what Leto becomes in the next books. You're not ready... XD

 

[Scum Of Orion]

It's a trope so old it was endemic to the greeks, and if we had enough of it left to read probably the babylonians too. You portray people you like as attractive, and people you hate as gross.

 

[cjl8336]

you forgot bowler hat guy

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

It's a trope so old it was endemic to the Greeks, and if we had enough of it left to read probably the Babylonians too. You portray people you like as attractive, and people you hate as gross.

You know, I could even say that it's basically the same reasons that, in our western culture, we would still have "David vs Goliath" being ingrained so deep (the good small guy winning over the evil massive one because he used his intelligence to defeat him, namely with a sling depending on versions) then we got the nice poor guy winning against the evil wealthy (thus why the moustache twirling villain is also portrayed with a top hat most of the time or at least with some kind of authority and power (like being a military general or a king) along with many other to tell that sometimes the small ones fight and win against the big ones who oppressed them.



Speaking of the Greeks and Babylonians I feel that a modern portrayal would be this meme to dismiss the person in front (especially with them having glasses because of course they still think that it makes them "nerds" while having a big beard and moustache is a sign of authority):

 

[PrismRed]

You know, I could even say that it's basically the same reasons that, in our western culture, we would still have "David vs Goliath" being ingrained so deep (the good small guy winning over the evil massive one because he used his intelligence to defeat him, namely with a sling depending on versions) then we got the nice poor guy winning against the evil wealthy (thus why the moustache twirling villain is also portrayed with a top hat most of the time or at least with some kind of authority and power (like being a military general or a king) along with many other to tell that sometimes the small ones fight and win against the big ones who oppressed them.



Speaking of the Greeks and Babylonians I feel that a modern portrayal would be this meme to dismiss the person in front (especially with them having glasses because of course they still think that it makes them "nerds" while having a big beard and moustache is a sign of authority):
View attachment 49123

I immediately think of Green Mile for some reason.

 

[micheI]

It's easier to judge someone not physically attractive.

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

But people ugly on the inside are ugly on the outside as well.

So you're telling us that people who are good looking are necessarily virtuous?

 

[Tonberry]

I'm kinda of the opinion that a despicable person IRL kind of becomes physically unattractive once you find out they are, no matter how "hot" they might be in general.
I get really confused when people I know call some horrible, baby-eating politician hot, because even if they were, them being pieces of shit kind of makes their physical attractiveness moot. I don't know if there's a term for that, but I guess I find personalities attractive?

As for portrayal in media, I think it's just a basic signifier that's easy to go for. People can't be as muscular as Rob Liefeld characters, but they're exaggerated to make their traits stand out. "Ugly" evil fictional characters are also usually unrealistically ugly too, so I'm not really convinced it's much of a problem.
Though, speaking a character designer, I don't think I'd ever use "ugliness" as a synonym for evil. That feels distasteful and part of a different set of traits entirely.

I like the inverse more (but I guess that's because I prefer heroes to villains). Yangus is definitely the most "conventionally ugly" Dragon Quest character, but he's like the kindest and best character they ever made, unlike Angelo in the same game, who is hyper-handsome but his personality makes him come off as a creep.

 

[Egg (McMuffin) Man]

good guys are pretty, bad guys are ugly

Recently the protagonists are ugly too

 

[Mr. Daddy]

Here in the states at least there were some pretty significant periods of time where there were a lot of mandates for media to make crime and criminals seem as unappealing as possible. The comics code for instance had four of its nineteen points be specifically about making crime, criminals, and evil unappealing, with at least two or three more to make heroics, heroes, and good seem as appealing as possible, even going so far as to include the stipulation that "criminals shall not be presented so as to be rendered glamorous or to occupy a position which creates a desire for emulation.". I imagine part of the move to meet requirements like this probably included making villains and criminals look ugly. Beyond that it's likely also due in large part to various small aspects like inspiration from other creators, media, culture, etc.​

 

[PrismRed]

So you're telling us that people who are good looking are necessarily virtuous?

To most people, first impression of a good looking person might comes off as virtuous, but like @Crim_Yeager said, once you truly find out what the person is like on the inside, it probably will change your perspective. It applies both ways, ugly and good looking.

 

[_oBSOLEte_]

Here in the states at least there were some pretty significant periods of time where there were a lot of mandates for media to make crime and criminals seem as unappealing as possible. The comics code for instance had four of its nineteen points be specifically about making crime, criminals, and evil unappealing, with at least two or three more to make heroics, heroes, and good seem as appealing as possible, even going so far as to include the stipulation that "criminals shall not be presented so as to be rendered glamorous or to occupy a position which creates a desire for emulation.". I imagine part of the move to meet requirements like this probably included making villains and criminals look ugly. Beyond that it's likely also due in large part to various small aspects like inspiration from other creators, media, culture, etc.​

Yep. Disney has been responsible of polluting the mind of several generations of children. They're backpedaling hard right now and somehow they only make things worse.

It's never about culture, always about marketing.
Look at that chad and his cute little doggy, Hades, lord of the underground :

And then after the Disney treatment...

Also look at the embodiment of grace and beauty as depicted two thousand years ago... So far away of today's normalized marketed definition.

Imagine the screeching and foaming at the mouth of the culture warriors if an artist would depict beauty like that in a modern vidjagaem... XD

And yet, they do make the world go 'round.

 

[Gorse]

It's never about culture, always about marketing.

Marketing is the defining element of post-industrial culture. Think about any decade from the 20th century, and the first thing that will pop into your head will have been placed there by a marketing firm.

This is especially true in fictionalized visual entertainment, because every choice made in a character's design was done so deliberatively by a creative. If the audience doesn’t like it, that’s the single biggest problem the creative can have.

 

[_oBSOLEte_]

Marketing is the defining element of post-industrial culture. Think about any decade from the 20th century, and the first thing that will pop into your head will have been placed there by a marketing firm.

This is especially true in fictionalized visual entertainment, because every choice made in a character's design was done so deliberatively by a creative. If the audience doesn’t like it, that’s the single biggest problem the creative can have.

It's definately true for the american culture. But there's a worse problem for a creative than the audience not liking their work : it's finding their work boring.

We're in the middle of witnessing that, I believe. An industry so busy chasing success algorythmically that it ended up being boring.

 

[Graves Ruinwalker]

I think we forgot that even villians have archetypes like heroes do.

Good looking villians tend to be more personally evil and show kindness in a superficial level because they always have something much more disastrous in their plans while manipulating Key-characters , people and even the main-characters too . Its tough to write a good villian that is the manipulator type . Right now alot of movies , series and games that made the villians more charismatic , rightous and reasonable are much more the good guys than the Main-characters do but try to make them as huge manipulators which is more terrible writing then a bad trope at this point .

The bad looking villians are more characters that accepted their evil intentions and live in constant misery which tends to make them ugly overall physicly and mentally because they dont care for themselves and are very deep rooted into their malicious , broken worldview and extreme acts . Such villians are easier to portray and can be easily adepted to the story and show they wanna make .
Saturday morning cartoons are a good example of it . In the meanwhile its better to have with ugly villians as tragic characters too because how they become into this shape and mentality which can be very relatable or even reasonable overall .