What's the difference between a Chosen One and a Mary Sue?

[Ikagura Ikagura]

I like neither.

Anakin Skywalker was the one to bring balance to the force but Luke was just a random farmer from a backwater planet.

That's why I'm not that fan of Harry Potter either. Hermione is a bit Mary Sue-ish (for being more proficient with magic) yet he's still the chosen one when I think she should've been the one defeating Voldemort.

Ron on the other hand is a guy I like because he's neither chosen nor a Gary Stu, I'll always prefer flawed protagonists all along.

Frodo and his grand father Bilbo aren't chosen ones either, just people who happened to become the bearer of the Ring which was more of a burden.

It's hard to write a character I agree.


Back to SW Finn should've become a Jedi.

 

[Your_Homie_Gale]

Back to SW Finn should've become a Jedi.

I am still angry and sad about that to this very day...

 

[MasterEn]

I am still angry and sad about that to this very day...

Back to SW Finn should've become a Jedi.

yeah, everyone who's checked out the disney movies fully agrees on this. the marketing even made him out to be the protag.
it would have also definitely fit the tag line that the movie trilogy apparently had: "Everyone can be a jedi", or something to that affect. a random soldier with a lightsaber saving and helping those in need; even without the force.

 

[KaiserMk7]

I like neither.

Anakin Skywalker was the one to bring balance to the force but Luke was just a random farmer from a backwater planet.

That's why I'm not that fan of Harry Potter either. Hermione is a bit Mary Sue-ish (for being more proficient with magic) yet he's still the chosen one when I think she should've been the one defeating Voldemort.

Ron on the other hand is a guy I like because he's neither chosen nor a Gary Stu, I'll always prefer flawed protagonists all along.

Frodo and his grand father Bilbo aren't chosen ones either, just people who happened to become the bearer of the Ring which was more of a burden.

It's hard to write a character I agree.


Back to SW Finn should've become a Jedi.

A facet of the chosen one is that this role is thrust upon them. Anakin was burdened by high expectations through the original trilogy. About all Hermione has going for her is that she does her schoolwork very well and is knowledgeable, while Harry is the specific target of a murderous madman who fancies himself a god and is paranoid over a prophecy.

 

[Netra]

The "chosen one" makes mistakes, improves over the course of the story, learns, and changes throughout their hero's journey.

The Mary Sue (or Gary Stu) is perfect from the first written words of the story.
-They make no mistakes, and if they do, it's not their fault but someone else.
-They stay the same throughout the story.
-They don't change their minds because they don't need a change of mind.
-They don't improve because they're already perfect.
-They don't learn anything because they already knew everything.
-They can do things out of nowhere that other characters struggle to do, even if they're experts at it.

 

[KaiserMk7]

yeah, everyone who's checked out the disney movies fully agrees on this. the marketing even made him out to be the protag.
it would have also definitely fit the tag line that the movie trilogy apparently had: "Everyone can be a jedi", or something to that affect. a random soldier with a lightsaber saving and helping those in need; even without the force.

Well, Jedi are a category of force-sensitives and a specific faction with their own rules and traditions, and the force is a major component of their combat abilities. No matter how much anyone would beg to differ, Grievous is not a dark jedi or a sith just because he fights with lightsabers, to add to my point.

 

[MasterEn]

Well, Jedi are a category of force-sensitives and a specific faction with their own rules and traditions, and the force is a major component of their combat abilities. No matter how much anyone would beg to differ, Grievous is not a dark jedi or a sith just because he fights with lightsabers, to add to my point.

i know that. there are many force sensitive beings in star wars. the real life stuff was what i was referring to. the marketing stuff. the idea was to sell the story of a regular person who rises up and more or less takes on the mantle of a jedi, while not really being one. that's what they said the story and overall theme of the movie trilogy was about. it wasn't even remotely close, but that's what they tried to market the disney movies as.

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

I know that in Zelda games Link is the chosen one by Hylia.


But I think there are rare exceptions but I cannot tell which. Maybe the Hero of Winds?

I'd be curious to see Nintendo tackling a Zelda game where the Triforce has stopped getting worshipped of even lost to time so that there's no longer any Hero that represents Courage.

 

[KaiserMk7]

I know that in Zelda games Link is the chosen one by Hylia.


But I think there are rare exceptions but I cannot tell which. Maybe the Hero of Winds?

I'd be curious to see Nintendo tackling a Zelda game where the Triforce has stopped getting worshipped of even lost to time so that there's no longer any Hero that represents Courage.

The DS sequels to The Wind Waker might count.

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

The DS sequels to The Wind Waker might count.

Yeah I guess?

Either way I think Zelda is one of the few times the Chosen one is done right.

Emmet from the Lego movie is a masterful subversion of the trope.

 

[ciro64]

A mary sue is boring.

 

[ciro64]

Unless your character has a unbearable personality from the get go, for me the thing that really separates a Mary Sue from just a "overpowered" character depends on what kind of story you're trying to tell.

Sometimes it's just about cool factor, and that's enough to be appealing.

I'll say though that the discrepancy between the character's archetype and the abilities they have can be a valid counter-argument. I'm not the most informed person on Addams Family, but when I watched some of the Wednesday Addams show and saw that she could also do martial arts it came off as a little mary suey to me. Not that a character can't be strong and smart at the same time, but for me her appeal was rather in scheming stuff rather than resorting to physical strength.

Btw if you ask me, The Last Jedi still is pretty much on brand with the previous ones in terms of being a space opera capeshit. Sure, Ray didn't needed training and got powers that are more OP compared to previous entries, but that's about it. The Death Star still was a pathetically easy place to infiltrate with incompetent ass soldiers, easy to blow up (multiple times) and easy to rebuild again. And wookies still could destroy militarily vehicles using primitive technology.

 

[KaiserMk7]

Btw if you ask me, The Last Jedi still is pretty much on brand with the previous ones in terms of being a space opera capeshit. Sure, Ray didn't needed training and got powers that are more OP compared to previous entries, but that's about it. The Death Star still was a pathetically easy place to infiltrate with incompetent ass soldiers, easy to blow up (multiple times) and easy to rebuild again. And wookies still could destroy militarily vehicles using primitive technology.

The Wookiees aren't all that primitive of a people. They have mechanical weaponry, at least. The Ewoks, however...

 

[trickybus]

I don't consume this kind of media much myself, but I've seen from people online and friends that these boring dime-a-dozen isekai stories tend to have characters that are just super powerful from the get go without "earning" it from the reader's point-of-view which constitutes a normal Mary Sue definition, but also chosen ones at the same time.

I'm of the mind to believe that the protag I mentioned is exactly this.

He is shown training and working hard but that work never actually amounts to anything because what saves his ass in a fight is his Author-given power of asspull. "Here's my super-special bloodline ability that no one else has access to and I never trained to unlock." It's like an intentionally sneaky way for the author to slip Mary Sue traits onto an established archetype in order to deflect accusations later down the line. I hate it.

(I think that got lost when some guy used the term incorrectly to describe Rey from Star Wars).

I'm not a fan of Rey's character but I never had the right words to describe why I dislike her so much; unfortunately, I also fell into that trap as a result. I think 'girlboss' is more appropriate, though I'm unsure about that term as well since it seems fairly new and the definition can be nebulous.

Sometimes it's just about cool factor, and that's enough to be appealing.

That describes shōnen anime to a T. Probably why the Mary Sue trope is flourishing there.

As an aside, I do want to point out that "Mary Sue" was originally used as a gender-neutral term (even though it's based on a female character), so that's how I tend to use it. Note that the shōnen protag I mentioned in my initial post is male. I know "Marty Stu" and "Gary Stu" exist but I tend to stick to one for simplicity's sake. My usage is not intended to condemn or demean female characters.

 

[ciro64]

The Wookiees aren't all that primitive of a people. They have mechanical weaponry, at least. The Ewoks, however...

Oops, I got the name wrong

Yeah I meant those shih tzu teddy bears.

 

[trickybus]

Oops, I got the name wrong

Yeah I meant those shih tzu teddy bears.

 

[KaiserMk7]

Hmm... can a Mary Sue be the villain?

 

[MasterEn]

Hmm... can a Mary Sue be the villain?

nowadays, they pretty much are the villains of the story. the antagonists usually end up being more likeable and relatable and sometimes the viewers actually root for them to win.

 

[trickybus]

Hmm... can a Mary Sue be the villain?

I like this idea!

the antagonists usually end up being more likeable and relatable and sometimes the viewers actually root for them to win.

Usually because they're hot.

 

[MasterEn]

Usually because they're hot.

not all the time.
most of the time they are, but not always.

 

[Ezri_Muldoon]

A chosen one is some one who is prophesied to do something, it doesn't mean they will do it willingly, nor have the skills to achieve it effortlessly. They must go through development to reach the pre-destined conclusion.
Some chosen ones may actively work against the narrative goal.
Let's use an under appreciated prophesized chosen one as an example. Riddick:

Love him, hate him. He is in no way a Mary sue- yet he is a chosen one. When confronted with a prophecy he actively rejects it. To the point when he realises he has completed part of the prophecy it frustrates him.
The franchise goes out if its way to depict this at face value, he's personally rebelling against the narrative driving force whilst being painfully aware of its existence. In his own words:
"Because you do not believe in God does not mean God does not believe in - "

"- Think someone could spend half their life in a slam with a horse bit in their mouth and not believe? Think he could start out in some liquor store trash bin with an umbilical cord wrapped around his neck and not believe? Got it all wrong, holy man. I absolutely believe in God... And I absolutely hate the fucker."

Now a Mary sue is some one capable of everything and everything, effortlessly.
Obvious example of Rey for Star Wars, who in less than 24 hours of the plot starting is on par with her protagonist peers (Luke, Obi-Wan) at the END of their respective journeys.

She went toe-to-toe with a man who was trained not only by a Sith lord, but Luke Skywalker himself prior to that.
Kylo's role as a threatening villain (which conceptually he should have been) was immediately ruined by Rey simply existing.
At no point does Rey show self awareness or challenge the narrative in any way, to the point she doesn't even know or care if she's a chosen one. She just wins regardless, she's the Anti-Riddick.

It's also worth noting that you can't retroactively fix a Mary sue, no amount of trials and tribulations added will justify impossible feats which have already happened.

Once the damage is done its done. You can't Dragonball power scale away the fact your Mary Sue mere existence broke what ever pre-established logical cohesion the narrative had.

A Mary sue is a character for whom the entire narrative & world will bend to accommodate their continued success.

 

[trickybus]

It's also worth noting that you can't retroactively fix a Mary sue, no amount of trials and tribulations added will justify impossible feats which have already happened.

Didn't the writers try this regarding her ability to pilot the junked Millennium Falcon? I remember watching that scene and thinking "How the hell does she know how to pilot? She's a junkyard orphan."

I don't recall the exact details but I heard that pilot training was retroactively added to her background to fix it—where it was added I'm not sure. But the damage is already done; it's going to be impossible to shake off the Mary Sue accusations when the writers forget to add important details in the movie where it's relevant.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 4:46 AM

A Mary sue is a character for whom the entire narrative & world will bend to accommodate their continued success.

This is an excellent summation of the concept in one sentence. Well said!

 

[KaiserMk7]

But the damage is already done; it's going to be impossible to shake off the Mary Sue accusations when the writers forget to add important details in the movie where it's relevant.

How might you respond to a protagonist deliberately, rather than carelessly, written to withhold information about their abilities and the overall setting from both the other protagonists and the audience until the plot forces them to play one of their cards?

 

[trickybus]

How might you respond to a protagonist deliberately, rather than carelessly, written to withhold information about their abilities and the overall setting from both the other protagonists and the audience until the plot forces them to play one of their cards?

Intention matters a lot in that situation. Hiding one's skills or background for tactical reasons is perfectly fine. Sometimes, a character is a closed-off loner, undercover, paranoid, etc. The choice to hide information is meant to enhance the narrative by creating mystery in the present that leads to a payoff in the future.

The lack of intention in Rey's case is what drags her characterization down.

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

I was thinking of Nausicaä (of the Valley of Wind) that could count as a chosen one

Yet in fact in the movie the actual hero for the people of the valley was Lord Yupa since he had the most experience with swords and the fauna and flora of the toxic jungle overall.

He was still her mentor (like Ben Kenobi for Luke) and he was still searching for the "Blue Clad One" from the Prophecy

For a manga and movie from the 80's it was quite subversive to reveal that the man he has spent many years for was in fact a woman he knew all along.