What makes difficulty feel good?

[b1tchcelcracra]

Even though I'm still an absolute pleb in games, I've recently gotten into the "difficulty is content" discourse that's been going on with Mark from the Electric Underground and Boghog; their assessments on the importance of difficulty in keeping players engaged and motivated to improve instead of motivated to be coddled, etc. I feel kind of inclined to this; but at the same time I feel like there is an element that separates difficult games from making the player feel motivated and still feel that they're having fun even though they're not winning, and making them feel continuously frustrated.

For example, in God Hand, a game that famously will beat your ass relentlessly by the first level and up the ante as you get better, I felt compelled to keep going back even though I'd been stuck at the first checkpoint of the first level for 3 hours. Meanwhile, those fucking carryarm enemies that tick your health off from just bumping into you on the train level in Mega Man Zero 2 enrage me to no end. I'm getting gored in Ninja Gaiden 2 continuously and wanting more, but a few attempts in the Cerberus boss in DMC 3 and I turned the game off.

Has anyone also encountered something like this? For you, what is it about a game that makes you want to keep coming back to a game that keeps beating your ass?

 

[jon2]

Learning Curve

As one grows experienced, the "difficulty" (but more accurately the game design itself) should not feel like a chore but rather a stimuli to master and overcome

The challenge (difficulty) is relatively commensurate with one's proficiency AKA if you are a "master" it feels like "musou" (play the old Dynasty Warriors or Samurai Warriors or OROCHI or Gundam Musou pre-2010 to find out) but lose focus for a sec then the game pwns you

Keeping the players on their toes and "in the zone" is what makes difficulty enjoyable; anything lesser than that is just a "breezable" game while anything more is basically kaizo and a kick in the nuts

 

[b1tchcelcracra]

Learning Curve

As one grows experienced, the "difficulty" (but more accurately the game design itself) should not feel like a chore but rather a stimuli to master and overcome

The challenge (difficulty) is relatively commensurate with one's proficiency AKA if you are a "master" it feels like "musou" (play the old Dynasty Warriors or Samurai Warriors or OROCHI or Gundam Musou pre-2010 to find out) but lose focus for a sec then the game pwns you

Keeping the players on their toes and "in the zone" is what makes difficulty enjoyable; anything lesser than that is just a "breezable" game while anything more is basically kaizo and a kick in the nuts

i agree! i got a psvita recently and have always wanted to play dragon crown (for the pretty ladies) and while it is hard playing on your own without a party, the skill tree really makes it very easy to just mash your way out; i later found out vanillaware's other game, odin sphere, also got a port to the vita, playing classic mode on it was genuinely intense every step of the way, i was getting my ass whooped by a cute little bear that ate honey and took naps in the middle of our fight but being able to progress on it without losing health and needing to waste more resources was a good puzzle.

for even more high skill based games like shmups or fighting games, i feel like theyre basically a new skill that you have to master like a piano; like what full extent of the jam mentions. learning how to stop mashing and fully understand the rock paper scissors core mechanic in virtua fighter 4 evo's quest mode really reminded me of practising a song back in high school, for that my motivation was the feeling of doing something actually productive. of course, then i get reminded that my house doesnt have ethernet and cant install it, so i wont be able to actually play against real people :(

at the same time, now that i think about it, i think this is where character design and even graphics contribute to enjoyment of difficulty; even if enemies keep dodging my attacks, landing a izuna drop in ng2 and watching skull and brain fragments splash out is really satisfying, while gene from God Hand being portrayed in the story as an underdog/slightly goofball shonen type mc makes it easier on myself to lose fights.

 

[Not_Red]

Learning Curve

Not just this, the rewards for doing good in a game also have to be good enough for the players to keep on going or else they will realize there is nothing to the game beyond just the difficulty.

Think about the Megaman games for example, you always face a boss at the end that has a specific weakness that you don't have access to. The first time it will be tough getting the first victory but the moment you do and get just a single power up you truly feel like you can take on the rest of the game.

 

[FrootyLoopsSamurai]

I think for difficulty to feel good there needs to be a learning aspect to drive engagement. Implementing new techniques and strategies to overcome challenges feels good. Sometimes it's a matter of building the muscle memory to pull off certain techniques consistently. As the player continues to improve, a sense of accomplishment is felt. Frustration is usually felt when there is a lack of progress or understanding of mechanics.

When thinking about what games hit the tension and release sweet spot of difficulty for me, Souls/like games tend to be the ones I gravitate to. Sekiro, in particular, probably had the most satisfying difficulty curve. There are a lot of mechanics you have to learn in that game in comparison to any Souls games released before then. It felt really good to beat some of the fights in that game. Hollow Knight and its sequel also had some pretty engaging difficult fights.

 

[TamagotchiTamaHero24's icon TamagotchiTamaHero24 TamagotchiTamaHero24]

Decent pace!

Difficulty can be a struggle, but a spike really stinks. If you get a hard challenge, then a less hard challenge, then a slightly harder challenge… you can keep going. Just make it consistent, and give them to you in quick succession. It’s always clear, especially with retro games, which titles got played from front to back at the end of their development and which ones didn’t.