Villain Factions in Games to simple ?

[Retro Doomer]

Should villainous factions in games be more fleshed out and morally complex perhaps even leaning into morally grey territory to make their actions more justifiable and realistic? Or is it perfectly fine for some factions to be purely evil, with no deeper reasoning behind their actions?
For example, the Enclave from Fallout is a fairly one-dimensional faction. They commit undeniably evil acts and have no redeeming qualities they're essentially "evil for the sake of being evil."
On the other hand, Caesar's Legion from Fallout: New Vegas is more nuanced. While still largely seen as villainous, they have a defined ideology and rationale for their brutality. Some players might even agree with their methods, seeing them as a necessary way to bring order to the wasteland, while others strongly oppose them. This kind of moral complexity adds depth and makes them more interesting to engage with.
So, should more games aim for this kind of morally grey storytelling in their antagonistic factions, especially in RPGs and story driven titles? Or is there still a place for simple, clearly evil villains in gaming?

 

[PrismRed]

It really depends on the narrative, all kinds of villainous roles has its own place.

 

[Retro Doomer]

It really depends on the narrative, all kinds of villainous roles has its own place.

True for a simple shooter or a fighting game a simplistic villain faction is enough most of the time but for more lore heavy or Role playing games they should flesh those factions our more in may opinion.

 

[Tonberry]

I like them all as long as they're either fun or interesting.

The ones I like the least are villains who are portrayed as some sort of master plotter/schemer, but come across as incredibly stupid once you look at their overarching plans with 1% scrutiny, like the Lich King/Arthas from his tenure as the big bad in WoW's Wrath of the Lich King expansion.

Spoiler: Arthas' dumbass plan

In the last phase of his boss fight, he essentially admits to the players that every obstacle he set before them was in fact a test to see if they could overcome them in order for him to defeat the players himself, in order to raise them into undeath as his ultimate warriors, but it's so tremendously stupidly portrayed because he goes into so much effort to do this (essentially simultaneously revitalizing and disrupting the entire continent) that it more or less just sounds like a cope once you finally get to him, because every time he appears in the world then pops away like Skeletor, you clap the ass of the goon he spent an entire zone's storyline to build up in a 3-player elite quest.

 

[PrismRed]

True for a simple shooter or a fighting game a simplistic villain faction is enough most of the time but for more lore heavy or Role playing games they should flesh those factions our more in may opinion.

Maybe so, but again it still depends on the narrative, for example we got the Darkspawn from Dragon Age who are just evil for the sake of evil, yet it works. There is also BlazBlue where most villains has solid backstory you can't fit it in a single game.

A 'villain' is basically a tool for the story teller to convey a "message" they want to tell, if they have no use for a villain they may opt not to use it, like Winnie The Pooh PS1, they got no villain there, you just play as Tigger collecting honey solving everyday's problem.

 

[Retro Doomer]

I like them all as long as they're either fun or interesting.

The ones I like the least are villains who are portrayed as some sort of master plotter/schemer, but come across as incredibly stupid once you look at their overarching plans with 1% scrutiny, like the Lich King/Arthas from his tenure as the big bad in WoW's Wrath of the Lich King expansion.

I feel the Enclave was wasted potential so much could have done with this Faction as they are the arm of the old world Government with some deep state lore added and so they could have shown maybe even a inner conflict and moral problems that could lead to fraction yet they just made them the typical bad guy faction.What a shame because they look cool

 

[Nebulon_Galaxy]

I feel the Enclave was wasted potential so much could have done with this Faction as they are the arm of the old world Government with some deep state lore added and so they could have shown maybe even a inner conflict and moral problems that could lead to fraction yet they just made them the typical bad guy faction.What a shame because they look cool
View attachment 106134

Well they had deeper lore in FO2 its just Todd Howard who saw them and said "yep bad guys and Brotherhood of Steel good guys" when BOS are as worse than most factions in the wasteland.

 

[Retro Doomer]

Well they had deeper lore in FO2 its just Todd Howard who saw them and said "yep bad guys and Brotherhood of Steel good guys" when BOS are as worse than most factions in the wasteland.

Yes at that point the Enclave are just genocidal maniacs that no one sane can support.
What a waste it could have been such a complex faction but well it says allot when the Ceasars Legion is more reasonable than the Enclave Ceasars fucking legion.

 

[Nebulon_Galaxy]

Yes at that point the Enclave are just genocidal maniacs that no one sane can support.
What a waste it could have been such a complex faction but well it says allot when the Ceasars Legion is more reasonable than the Enclave Ceasars fucking legion.

We can only pray that the Enclave in Deep South and Midwest are formidable and a interesting faction compared to the rest of the Todd Howard series. But alas Todd Howard should stick to Elder Scrolls and give Fallout to someone who cares about the lore. Probably why New Vegas is the peak of the series. inb4 some schizo goes crazy and tells me im wrong cause he started with FO3 or 4

 

[Tonberry]

Yes at that point the Enclave are just genocidal maniacs that no one sane can support.
What a waste it could have been such a complex faction but well it says allot when the Ceasars Legion is more reasonable than the Enclave Ceasars fucking legion.

I just pretend to ally with whoever gives me the Power Armor, then rip ass through the entire wasteland lol, all Fallout factions are just larpers clinging to romanticized old world beliefs in the end

The Titans of the New West mod for NV was so much fun

 

[Retro Doomer]

We can only pray that the Enclave in Deep South and Midwest are formidable and a interesting faction compared to the rest of the Todd Howard series. But alas Todd Howard should stick to Elder Scrolls and give Fallout to someone who cares about the lore. Probably why New Vegas is the peak of the series. inb4 some schizo goes crazy and tells me im wrong cause he started with FO3 or 4

The best Fallout Games where not made by It just works guy after all.
I found a old video regarding this

they really should have given Obsidian more time back then and probably even the license for the franchise.

 

[Nebulon_Galaxy]

I just pretend to ally with whoever gives me the Power Armor, then rip ass through the entire wasteland lol, all Fallout factions are just larpers clinging to romanticized old world beliefs in the end

View attachment 106138
The Titans of the New West mod for NV was so much fun

I usually do an unarmed + slasher + turbo + rushing water

 

[Retro Doomer]

I usually do an unarmed + slasher + turbo + rushing water

Being a boy is maxing out your Charisma Stats being a Man is maxing out you Intelligent Stats to level up quicker.
Also you could say being a child act as the Hero be a Edgy Teen be the Villain or be Adult be The Mercenary/Vigilante in games.

 

[Tonberry]

I usually do an unarmed + slasher + turbo + rushing water

I've always been a huge sucker for the power armor though I understand it's pretty divisive among more hardcore Fallout fans (I'm more of a casual fan)? It's just too cool and that mod made it feel more like how I always kind of envisioned them in my head. Way bigger and scarier but not some kind of massive machine you go and pilot.

Doing a big guns build with this was so cool because of how they attached to the underarm

I only played FO4 for a few hours though where they made it into some kind of vehicle, that shit gave me headaches.

 

[Nebulon_Galaxy]

Being a boy is maxing out your Charisma Stats being a Man is maxing out you Intelligent Stats to level up quicker.
Also you could say being a child act as the Hero be a Edgy Teen be the Villain or be Adult be The Mercenary/Vigilante in games.

Im a dangerous individual, Logan's Loophole Chem Addict. No bullet can't pierce my chem pumped veins.

I've always been a huge sucker for the power armor though I understand it's pretty divisive among more hardcore Fallout fans (I'm more of a casual fan)? It's just too cool and that mod made it feel more like how I always kind of envisioned them in my head. Way bigger and scarier but not some kind of massive machine you go and pilot.
View attachment 106141
Doing a big guns build with this was so cool because of how they attached to the underarm

I only played FO4 for a few hours though where they made it into some kind of vehicle, that shit gave me headaches.

i need to try this mod, its something i always liked from the earlier games was how massive the armor was compared to regular joes.

FO4 i fell asleep after getting out of the vault. I should try it again, but its so easy to be overpowered in that game.

 

[Tonberry]

i need to try this mod, its something i always liked from the earlier games was how massive the armor was compared to regular joes.

It's great for that kind of "living weapon" feel compared to all the Mad Max goons running around. Helps that the PA in NV feels slightly more prestigious in that you gotta earn the perk etc.

FO4 i fell asleep after getting out of the vault. I should try it again, but its so easy to be overpowered in that game.

I only tried it on Xbox after the updated version came to gamepass after the TV show (which I kind of loved), and the fact that the game never paused stressed me the fuck out. Might be better on PC though since you can aim better etc.

 

[ThatOneLum ThatOneLum]

I think having just one type of villainous faction would be dull. You can get just as much entertainment out of an oversimplified, cartoonishly evil faction as you can from a morally ambiguous or "serious" faction, but they both depend heavily on the game they're in and the story they're part of.

Ceaser's Legion is an interesting faction because they're in a game with the sort of tone and narrative style where they work when compared with the rest. Plop them into a zanier game and they would stand out like a sore thumb IMO.

 

[Tonberry]

an oversimplified, cartoonishly evil faction

Like the pirates in Rayman 2!
They felt giga-threatening when I was a kid, and they're mostly the typical anti-nature hyper-industrialization faction (which is a villain trope I kinda love).

 

[ThatOneLum ThatOneLum]

Like the pirates in Rayman 2!
They felt giga-threatening when I was a kid, and they're mostly the typical anti-nature hyper-industrialization faction (which is a villain trope I kinda love).

Yeah they're kind of a perfect example.

They work great as a threatening but overtly cartoon threat in the game because of the tone and style. They don't need to be complex because they're just an evil/technological threat for french cartoon hero Rayman to fight against with his magical/natural buddies.

 

[Tonberry]

Yeah they're kind of a perfect example.

They work great as a threatening but overtly cartoon threat in the game because of the tone and style. They don't need to be complex because they're just an evil/technological threat for french cartoon hero Rayman to fight against with his magical/natural buddies.

Such a wonderful game.

 

[ThatOneLum ThatOneLum]

Such a wonderful game.

It really is. To this day, I'm not even sure which of the many versions of the game is my favourite.

I also have some vague memories that there was a Rayman foot-racing game that was released around the time of Rayman Revolution on PS2, but that feels like it might have been a demo or a feverdream.

 

[Tonberry]

It really is. To this day, I'm not even sure which of the many versions of the game is my favourite.

I also have some vague memories that there was a Rayman foot-racing game that was released around the time of Rayman Revolution on PS2, but that feels like it might have been a demo or a feverdream.

Rayman M!

Played the shit out of it with a friend when we were kids. We always fought over who got the play as the pirate because he had the coolest music (it shifted when you were in the lead).

 

[Dany28]

I don't know, I've never thought about that. I just play, and that's it.

 

[Clippy]

There's nothing wrong with having simple villains who are just there to be defeated. When it comes to action games Carmack had a point when he said that story in video games is like story in porn. You expect there to be one but that's not the main attraction. Do I need to know what Diablo's motivations are? No, all I need to know is that he's a threat to Tristram. Do I need an elaborate explanation on how and why Cyberdemons became a thing and a moral dilemma associated with killing hellspawn? Nah, just give me the super shotgun.

For the more narrative-driven games I wish we had more games where your choices actually matter. More often than not you get to pick a faction or make some decisions that affect minor things but ultimately all plotlines converge at some point right before the end and the final stretch is pretty much always the same. You defeat the same villain, the world is in the same state and so on. You'll get a wall of text or a cutscene saying that your chosen faction elected you as their leader or that they became the stewards of the wastelands but ultimately it has no real bearing on the setting. It doesn't matter which faction you choose because all of them end up in the same spot in the end. It would be so much more fun if making choices in the campaign would lead to branching and sprawling storylines with completely different outcomes.

Probably why New Vegas is the peak of the series.

You have a weird way of spelling 'Fallout 76' . I can't comment on the Fallout franchise since the only thing I know about it is memes and the occasional outrage when Bethesda does Bethesda things. I tried playing the first game a few years ago but fighting rats or whatever it was in the first cave made me rage quit. That and knowing that there's an overarching time limit in the game doesn't inspire me to give it another go.

 

[Rovole]

When the villian is too complex and fleshed out, you run the risk of having them be seen as sympathetic and thereby undermine the player's agency to go along with the story and beat them as intended. On the other hand I understand the frustration with an overly simple enemy faction where you wonder why anyone is willing to fight and die for them (looking at you Fire Emblem). Dwelling on the reason why people do bad things as a group also runs the risk of going into political issues which you'd understand why developers are reluctant to do.

As mentioned in this thread that can work for the game design if it incorporates player choice and faction alignment, but that means complicating the story by usually having to have multiple ending scenarios with the accompanying levels and such. And also as mentioned, there's no reason why you can't have a flat villain to drive the gameplay along just like you don't always need a complex narrative and story to explain the hero's actions.