Thoughts on repro games for legacy systems

Aldia Aldia

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I recently found this out about the PS2 community. There are people making almost 1:1 copies of games and their packaging and selling them for cheaper.

What are your thoughts on this practice?

Personally, I think it could save people a lot of bucks on old, hard to come across games; I also think it sounds very sketchy.
 
I also find it suspicious. I don't consider it piracy because selling a game that's no longer manufactured is good, as it protects it for future generations, but I find it very strange. You remind me that Sega Saturn, There are also people who do that.
 
I don't consider it piracy because selling a game that's no longer manufactured is good
No, it is piracy. One thing is archiving abandonware, another very different thing is reproducing it and selling it for cheaper; that's just piracy 101.
 
No, it is piracy. One thing is archiving abandonware, another very different thing is reproducing it and selling it for cheaper; that's just piracy 101.
Now that I understand, thank you for explaining that sometimes I'm a person who doesn't know anything and that I'm not having a good time right now. Ps I'm stupid Sorry for my comment, sometimes I talk too much.
 
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The legal and moral side of selling "backups" is obviously dubious at best but I don't really care if they are fully transparent on what exactly they are selling. Especially with an old and obsolete system like ps2.
Not sure if I would personally see much value in owning these though.
 
People have been doing this for decades, it's called bootlegging. You'd pick up a game for a deal at the flea market and it'd just be the ROM on a cartridge with a reproduced box.
 
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People have been doing this for decades, it's called bootlegging. You'd pick up a game for a deal at the flea market and it'd just be the ROM on a cartridge with a reproduced box.
Here in my country, there was a company that made reproductions of Sega CD games and other 3DO games.
 
I recently found this out about the PS2 community. There are people making almost 1:1 copies of games and their packaging and selling them for cheaper.

What are your thoughts on this practice?

Personally, I think it could save people a lot of bucks on old, hard to come across games; I also think it sounds very sketchy.
That is a bootleg, and as you well said it is illegal, because there is a procedure of buying/selling involved without the consent of the original copyright author. I think paying for that kind of games is not preservation, it is something morally questionable. If you don't have money to buy the original game because it costs 5 times its price due to the rarity or any other reason, then you can just download it and play it in your home privately if your country laws allow that. If they don't, then just find other alternative games to enjoy, there are plenty nowadays :)
The legal and moral side of selling "backups" is obviously dubious at best but I don't really care if they are fully transparent on what exactly they are selling. Especially with an old and obsolete system like ps2.
Not sure if I would personally see much value in owning these though.
People who have the morality of selling these kind of things are unlikely going to be transparent, no?

Having that copy as you say loses all its value. I prefer to pay 200€ for an original copy of a game than 30€ for something that has zero value. At least, acquiring the real game will always be something that has value in the market if you want to recover your money afterwards.
 
Well for PS2 specifically, there are so many backup loading solutions that I don't see why you should pay for something that isn't authentic.
 
Well for PS2 specifically, there are so many backup loading solutions that I don't see why you should pay for something that isn't authentic.
Agreed. If anything it's probably more fun to make your own bootleg boxes for decoration.
 
I recently found this out about the PS2 community. There are people making almost 1:1 copies of games and their packaging and selling them for cheaper.

What are your thoughts on this practice?

Personally, I think it could save people a lot of bucks on old, hard to come across games; I also think it sounds very sketchy.
Depends how the discs are produced. One thing is do you need a mod chipped, mechapwned, or swapdisc to play these reproductions which is likely, unless the people got their hands on decommissioned PS2 disc pressing facilities that can press discs with the right wobble grooves for passing legit copy protection scheme in the consoles. But ok, it is fair to assume these discs would not have that, and you at least need to own a method for loading backup/import discs in your system. Maybe the sellers even patch the discs into Master Discs for MechaPWN compatibility that as far as I know does not impact compatibility with modchips either. The next question is are the discs pressed, or DVD-R's. Like I have a topic mentioning this; home recordable disc media fades over time, even non-RW one, with possible range of life from 10-20 years. This is why LRG selling their CD reproductions with proper licensing no less on a CD-R that is an issue when they have a very limited self life compared to properly press manufactured discs, which they should be selling. A company should not have hard time at least commissioning a press run from a factory.

Aside these issues, as long as the deal is honest; seller tells what the product is, the buyer knows, and the buyer wants it regardless, is is not an issue. If sony or publishers find it one, they can take them down.

People who have the morality of selling these kind of things are unlikely going to be transparent, no?
These days a lot of them are, at least depending on product category. Collectors are far too educated to be pushed something that is not legit to them as a genuine article. In Alibaba, if you search for say Mother 3, you will find reproduction GBA cartridges and the sellers tell you it is, and might be also usually just the cartridge. This is, cheaper than a flashcart to get yourself a cartridge of one special game, maybe with english patch too, and sellers being upfront about it makes them deal with less headache than trying to be sneaky about it. This type of dealing at least these days is common. Of course, it wasn't upfront back in 200X.

This also leaves with the fact that you can easily get your PS2 run backups. It is not that hard to have a DVD burner and blank DVD-R's, Hard Drive equipped Fat PS2, MC2SIO or other methods available to you. To me these types of products make sense for cartridges. Though, lack of care manufacturing some of them can present issues. I bought a 5€ repro of english patched Mother 3 myself, which regularly looses it's saves because the save block on the cartridge does not match what the game expects and needs, causing data corruption. Not only that, but often electing to use battery backed up SRAM even in GBA games that did happen for few games, in few regions but is not the norm, and static types of storage, even flash, is used throughout most if not virtually all GBA games.
 
That is a bootleg, and as you well said it is illegal, because there is a procedure of buying/selling involved without the consent of the original copyright author. I think paying for that kind of games is not preservation, it is something morally questionable. If you don't have money to buy the original game because it costs 5 times its price due to the rarity or any other reason, then you can just download it and play it in your home privately if your country laws allow that. If they don't, then just find other alternative games to enjoy, there are plenty nowadays :)

People who have the morality of selling these kind of things are unlikely going to be transparent, no?

Having that copy as you say loses all its value. I prefer to pay 200€ for an original copy of a game than 30€ for something that has zero value. At least, acquiring the real game will always be something that has value in the market if you want to recover your money afterwards.
What has "value" varies person to person.
To me, a PS2 game that came from some Chinese factory in the 00s then shipped to my local Wal-Mart has no more value than one that came from a Chinese dude's DVD-Burner last week. As long as it works. It's just plastic and paper.
Also anything that keeps a media accessible, like copying it to a disk, is preservation. There's no moral line to it. Spreading it through distribution is even better.

The publishers certainly aren't doing it, so we gotta. If someone's willing to kick you some cash for putting it together for them then it's win-win IMO.

Personally, I don't think it's much different than buying a game second hand and a repro box. You're just getting both at the same time and paying someone for the convenience, like any other service.
 
Reminds me of the Chinese ladies I used to see on the sidewalks of New York City
selling $5 "New" DVD movies and cheap Gucci handbags

vendors-selling-counterfeit-dvds-on-fifth-avenue-in-new-york-B7EWEG.jpg
 
What has "value" varies person to person.
To me, a PS2 game that came from some Chinese factory in the 00s then shipped to my local Wal-Mart has no more value than one that came from a Chinese dude's DVD-Burner last week. As long as it works. It's just plastic and paper.
Also anything that keeps a media accessible, like copying it to a disk, is preservation. There's no moral line to it. Spreading it through distribution is even better.

The publishers certainly aren't doing it, so we gotta. If someone's willing to kick you some cash for putting it together for them then it's win-win IMO.

Personally, I don't think it's much different than buying a game second hand and a repro box. You're just getting both at the same time and paying someone for the convenience, like any other service.
But it does not matter what value is it to you but to the rest of the people in case you want to sell it. I am not saying you will, just you have that option if you get tired of it, or for other personal reasons that can happen in life, and want to recover the money.

If the owner of the copyright does not do it, you have no legal right to do it, even if it is a win-win for the society. Buying a game second hand is a legal practice, unless the owner of the game stablishes some kind of procedure for that to be unavailable. You can preserve a game privately if you own the copy or if you don't own it depending on your country laws, that should be enough if that's the reason.

You simply can not distribute something and ask for money without the approval of the owner, this is the core topic of the conversation. If we are not agree on this, then we can discuss night and day without consensus.
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These days a lot of them are, at least depending on product category. Collectors are far too educated to be pushed something that is not legit to them as a genuine article. In Alibaba, if you search for say Mother 3, you will find reproduction GBA cartridges and the sellers tell you it is, and might be also usually just the cartridge. This is, cheaper than a flashcart to get yourself a cartridge of one special game, maybe with english patch too, and sellers being upfront about it makes them deal with less headache than trying to be sneaky about it. This type of dealing at least these days is common. Of course, it wasn't upfront back in 200X.

This also leaves with the fact that you can easily get your PS2 run backups. It is not that hard to have a DVD burner and blank DVD-R's, Hard Drive equipped Fat PS2, MC2SIO or other methods available to you. To me these types of products make sense for cartridges. Though, lack of care manufacturing some of them can present issues. I bought a 5€ repro of english patched Mother 3 myself, which regularly looses it's saves because the save block on the cartridge does not match what the game expects and needs, causing data corruption. Not only that, but often electing to use battery backed up SRAM even in GBA games that did happen for few games, in few regions but is not the norm, and static types of storage, even flash, is used throughout most if not virtually all GBA games.
It makes sense. Maybe that can happen in other products where the target audience is very specific, as they are usually knowledgeable enough as you say, just to avoid issues later.
 
After my great GameStop Collection Cleansing 20 years ago I've decided I'll never sell another game again.
 
I mean, to be fair...
to-be-fair-letterkenny.gif

a lot of people have been doing this for rom hacks for literal ages. So long as they aren't charging an arm and a leg for it, I really don't see much of an issue
 
It makes sense. Maybe that can happen in other products where the target audience is very specific, as they are usually knowledgeable enough as you say, just to avoid issues later.
Yeah. The repro cartridges are also usually reflashable as they do not use a permanent ROM and instead some sort of rewritable memory. DS/Lite with a flashcart can reflash them if you want more than one game's play from one, or just have fun with one. This does not matter to disc based repros of course, and is very much a specific thing to GBA repros, but it would make sense possibly for some GB/GBC ones etc if you want the game playable on real hardware, the flashcart is too expensive and you wanted that single game. And are ready to gamble in the price bracket about full functionality. Like my Mother 3 repro not being fully playable, as I had an expectations this might happen with 5€ alibaba repro. I can still use it for reflash fun.


What has "value" varies person to person.
To me, a PS2 game that came from some Chinese factory in the 00s then shipped to my local Wal-Mart has no more value than one that came from a Chinese dude's DVD-Burner last week. As long as it works. It's just plastic and paper.
Like I pointed out, this viewpoint is false in two ways. First being that genuine games work on unmodified consoles that has value, as modchipping especially PS2's is not easy, and not as common as PS1 modchipping. Other part is the fact that a burned DVD-R will fade over time, witch a finite lifespan even in well stored environment that a pressed disc surpasses by a lot. DVD-R's are also problematic, and even laser killing to most PS2 models even if yours is modded versus a pressed disc. FAT and 7000 slims have major issues with burned discs and certain components can even overload and get busted dealing with DVD-R's as they try to adjust to reading them. I get the notion but "some chinese guy's DVD-R" is absolutely an unvaluable thing compared to genuine articles. The random Chinese guy in this case should own or commission a pressing run from a DVD factory that is very possible to make the deal more palpatable. Plus; most genuine commercial discs, DVD's specifically, were pressed in Japan, US, and Germany. With quite a lot more quality control than slightly more dodgier Chinese business would have, especially today.
 
As long as it is abundantly clear that it's a reproduction, I am okay with it. I have bought a couple game hack cartridges, as well as a couple English translated Japanese games that were put into US cases. I have also picked up some bulk Gameboy cartridges off AliExpress in order to reflash them with games I used to own and play them on real hardware.

I also have a bootleg copy of Toejam and Earl on the Genesis, because I didn't want to pay eBay prices.
 
Not a fan. Just spend that money on a large HDD or SSD and load it up. The only time I can kinda understand it is when an unreleased game gets leaked like Half-Life or Propeller Arena on Dreamcast and you want a physical copy of a completed game that didn't get an official one.
 
Not really my thing. From what I've seen on storefronts like Etsy, the most popular ones are for games like Rule of Rose, where authentic copies go for insanely high prices. I understand the attraction if something like that is your favorite game and you want a nice physical version of it. I think it's probably best if there's some small but clear indication on the box/disc that it's a repro, just to avoid people potentially being scammed if it's ever resold as legit.
 
I would argue this is a bigger piracy issue than ROM sites. Downloaded ROMs tend to be for personal use whereas repro cartridges is straight bootlegging and theft. I have a few repro GameBoy carts but that was because I didn't perform my due diligence before buying off eBay.
 
I think it's probably best if there's some small but clear indication on the box/disc that it's a repro, just to avoid people potentially being scammed if it's ever resold as legit.
Cmon man these are genuine articles look at the quality in the lettering and that nice color of the discs.

IMG_20260402_1815125782.jpg
These are primo releases from Sega themselves!
 
To be fair when I used to buy games for my Mega Drive I bought a few repro games off AliExpress, so for example I weren't prepared to pay through the nose for a legit copy of Ristar so I paid £13 for a repro copy, got a few others too for example Sonic 3 as I wanted the NTSC-U version and not PAL so with it being a region locked game and expensive I just got that, only thing is it doesn't work with S&K.
 
Yeah. The repro cartridges are also usually reflashable as they do not use a permanent ROM and instead some sort of rewritable memory. DS/Lite with a flashcart can reflash them if you want more than one game's play from one, or just have fun with one. This does not matter to disc based repros of course, and is very much a specific thing to GBA repros, but it would make sense possibly for some GB/GBC ones etc if you want the game playable on real hardware, the flashcart is too expensive and you wanted that single game. And are ready to gamble in the price bracket about full functionality. Like my Mother 3 repro not being fully playable, as I had an expectations this might happen with 5€ alibaba repro. I can still use it for reflash fun.
It is true. I bought a cartridge 369 in 1 for the GBA because these cartridges are reflasheable and this one was big for its price. I think it costed me around 9€ and it contains 256MB to place the roms. I also bought the GBA flasher for around 20€ and it's been something fun. I didn't experience problems with the few games I tried, even doing the multirom thing.
FAT and 7000 slims have major issues with burned discs and certain components can even overload and get busted dealing with DVD-R's as they try to adjust to reading them. I get the notion but "some chinese guy's DVD-R" is absolutely an unvaluable thing compared to genuine articles. The random Chinese guy in this case should own or commission a pressing run from a DVD factory that is very possible to make the deal more palpatable. Plus; most genuine commercial discs, DVD's specifically, were pressed in Japan, US, and Germany. With quite a lot more quality control than slightly more dodgier Chinese business would have, especially today.
Back in the PS2 era, there were lots of problems reading DVD±R, but most of them were due to the specific lens SPU-3170, whose manufacturer was Philips. The original lens in Slim 7000x was the PVR-802W, which was made by Sony itself, and it worked wonderfully even with low quality burned DVD's, although it was not recommended to use them. But for some reason, in some regions the 7000x was also shipped with the SPU-3170 and then many problems arose, even with original discs. Even knowing it, PS2 revisions until 75000 were keeping the same lens combo until Sony got rid of the bad one in favour of theirs. There was only one change when they produced the new lens for the 9000x, the manufacturing place. In my humble opinion, they did the right choice as 9000x lens TDP-182W is the best one of all, although the quality of the PVR-802W is close. For fat PS2 there were not as many problems as with the slims, so I didn't work with them too much. I only know the best lens is the KHS-400R from the 3900x model.
 

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