"hiding your true feelings and seriousness behind walls of irony and jokes so people won't call you weak or cringe" is pretty weak and cringe in and of itself.
Don't be afraid to talk about the things you love and express your passion for them.
Even If not everyone's gonna understand/agree on it.
Frankly, it's even better than Undertale! Toby Fox's crazy sense of humour just never gets old, and I hope we'll see it for a long, long time. I've got my copy of the full game pre-ordered... how about you? :)
Only thing I'd caution is putting all your cards out on the table. Bad actors will use your sincerity to shank you in the heart. Kind of hard to know your audience on an anonymous internet forum though...
Well, I simply have to disagree! I love every single part of Undertale, start to finish, but good golly ganosh, when it comes to all those things, Deltarune is even better! :) I'm just hoping there's some more Sans and Undyne moments – LOL, miss those guys from the first game! :)
Well, I simply have to disagree! I love every single part of Undertale, start to finish, but good golly ganosh, when it comes to all those things, Deltarune is even better! :) I'm just hoping there's some more Sans and Undyne moments – LOL, miss those guys from the first game! :)
I think in general whatever the topic, whenever someone says something along the lines of "is everything 'X' these days?" or "why don't people make 'Y' anymore?" etc. all I can ever think is that you probably just need to shop around a little more?
The fact that 'sincerity' is weirdly nebulous makes this trickier to interface with (Undertale has been brought up, which is a good case study for a videogame with cynical elements, ironic gags and referential writing - but always seems to be coming SINCERELY from Toby Fox. Compare that to the works of David Cage which tend to be direct, uncompromising, and sincere in the issues they raise and address - and yet there isn't a molecule of my being that thinks Cage has a sincere thought in his worthless, talentless, pervert brain) but regardless of how you choose to define it within the greater context of the contemporary videogame development landscape I reckon you can find what you're looking for somewhere out there. It just might not be on the front page of steam.
Undertale has been brought up, which is a good case study for a videogame with cynical elements, ironic gags and referential writing - but always seems to be coming SINCERELY from Toby Fox.
I thought all the main players in Undertale were archetypes played pretty straight:
The overbearing mother
The absentee father
The crushing introverted one
The brash extroverted one
The kidder whose actually OP
The loveable idiot.
I don't think they deconstructed the characters all that much. If anything you could argue Undertale plays it pretty safe and "by the books". Maybe Metatron or w.e. it's called is the exception
I think in general whatever the topic, whenever someone says something along the lines of "is everything 'X' these days?" or "why don't people make 'Y' anymore?" etc. all I can ever think is that you probably just need to shop around a little more?
The fact that 'sincerity' is weirdly nebulous makes this trickier to interface with (Undertale has been brought up, which is a good case study for a videogame with cynical elements, ironic gags and referential writing - but always seems to be coming SINCERELY from Toby Fox. Compare that to the works of David Cage which tend to be direct, uncompromising, and sincere in the issues they raise and address - and yet there isn't a molecule of my being that thinks Cage has a sincere thought in his worthless, talentless, pervert brain) but regardless of how you choose to define it within the greater context of the contemporary videogame development landscape I reckon you can find what you're looking for somewhere out there. It just might not be on the front page of steam.
I think people miss when what they like was at the forefront of culture. For example, some people are still upset that Hip Hop and Pop overtook Rock as the dominant, boundary pushing genre. To that I say, it'll be fine. I don't like that Nickelback is more successful than Volbeat, but Volbeat is still there! I can listen to then via a pocket computer at a moments notice. Everything has it's moment. Things come and go, and what you take for granted as mainstream now is gonna be a niche that people your age and hipster teenagers wax nostalgic for. Love what you love, and put in the effort to find it. If you can read this, you are using the most incredible collection of knowledge in the history of mankind. Use it.
Ah, another thread I'm late to because internet security at work would absolutely destroy me if I was on anything more out-there than the Edge frontpage. Anyways, here's my 2¢:
Back in the late 20th century, nerds were looked down on. They were the most sincere about their passions, they could enjoy weird things without irony, and they were more open-minded than most. They also got the ƒ¡‡ beat out of them when they showed how sincere they were.
This was a bad thing for business, though. Nerds spent more money than anyone on their passions, and while there were some non-nerds who spent a lot too, that was mostly on sports and tools and other stuff that can't be easily copyrighted, trademarked, and merchandised to the same extent as, say a comic book series. So there was a lot of monetary interest in normalizing nerd culture while also pulling the average person into it to increase sales.
The 90s saw the rise of the "cool nerd" trend. People like Quentin Tarantino, Kevin Smith, Joss Whedon, Trey Parker and Matt Stone, and (at the very end of the decade) Bryan Singer all helped push this image to the public. But how did it work? Tarantino probably did the most sincere version of it, showing a straight-forward love for grindhouse cinema, but also giving a level of cool to it that was not as common in the more amateurish works he parroted. There was, however, a bit of pop cultural critique in his works that showed some willingness to mock things he liked, even if they were just Madonna and McDonald's. Smith was next, being a sincere comic and Star Wars fan, but also trying to get this accepted as cool by adding a bit of mocking critique to show that yes, he knows how silly all this is, but it's still cool, and he's still cool for knowing that. Neither of these directors was doing this for marketing purposes, but because they were doing what they loved most while getting their feet into the independent cinema world.
And maybe we'd still be in a more sincere world if it wasn't for corporate media's own version. Enter Joss Whedon. Whedon was not from the independent film world; he wasn't even a nerd. He was a TV sitcom writer and Hollywood script doctor for action movies — his early resume being near devoid of nerdy works. The exception to this was the movie Buffy the Vampire Slayer. This was mildly nerdy: horror was out of fashion in the early 90s, but Buffy was ironic horror. And by being ironic, it was able to win over audiences who would have avoided horror otherwise. (Note that horror got completely back to mainstream popularity later with Scream, another ironic horror movie.) Whedon would later go on to a rocky Hollywood writing career, back to TV for more Buffy, then back to Hollywood again to become the definitive nerd culture writer according to Hollywood marketing. That whole time, he pushed his brand of ironic writing into the variety of things he touched.
Note that Bryan Singer was not at all on board for nerd culture. He wanted to be a serious mid-budget director, which he was to some degree in the 90s. However, Hollywood eventually sent the money dump truck to his home, and he directed X-Men, based on one thing he really hated: comics and their nerdiness. So of course he decided to warp it away from what it was into something less sincere, to the extent of even hiring Whedon to script doctor David Hayter's script into something a bit more ironic. And thus we got started on the irony-soaked comic movie trend.
Of course, movies were not the only source of this. TV also trended in that direction. The Simpsons was actually a true nerd series, created by a comic artist who started just after the end of the "underground comix" movement. Yet Groening did sometimes mock nerds due to the frustrations of being around the less likeable members of the nerd community. However, this wasn't something he had to do to make his work seem cool. Later imitators of his style were different.
So I know that if I blaspheme against Parker and Stone here, I'll have a few angry individuals hound me for daring to comment on them as anything other than perfect.
But it should be noted that their works are heavy on ironic humor, often to such a degree that any deviation from the norm, nerdy or otherwise, is mocked mercilessly as a form of direct attack on the subject. What we get with them is both nerd and bully at the same time (leaning a bit more to the bully side), reminding fans that they can feel safe with the nerd stuff they like while attacking anything that others like. This kind of extreme ironic humor ended up influencing other writers to go harder later on.
And not long after, we got Family Guy. Unlike the above, Seth MacFarlane used ironic humor to mock anything regardless if he liked it or not. There was no moralizing (aside from an occasional opinion that was dissonant with everything else present), no attempt to push any deeper meaning any further than what would create comedy. (I'll stop there because I have no clue how to gauge how that will be taken.)
(There are others I could add in, but some of them would be a bit too controversial to even mention by name. Let's just say fiction was not the only type of media that got hit with the ironic mockery trend.)
So all that changed the landscape of a decade that started with nerds getting beat up and ended with the bullies wanting to play Soul Calibur with you. We got nerd "acceptance", but only to the extent that anything outside the norm could be mocked as uncool. Essentially, the same people who had spent decades hating on everyone different still were hating on them, but now they are buying the same merchadise because the media told them it's okay so long as you point out you aren't one of those people.
Unlike the above, Seth MacFarlane used ironic humor to mock anything regardless if he liked it or not. There was no moralizing (aside from an occasional opinion that was dissonant with everything else present), no attempt to push any deeper meaning any further than what would create comedy.
This attitude of self-awareness is key to whether or not irony is tolerable. In Family Guy, the jokes are all dumb and simple, but the show knows that and doesn't try to tie them all in with some agonizingly-trite moral (like South Park does). Functionally, you could say there's little difference between Seth MacFarlane and Toby Fox or the guy who makes Pop Team Epic (or whatever, those were just the first two things that came to mind), but what makes the former better is that there's no ego – everyone on Family Guy is a joke, but Family Guy is the biggest joke of all, so the audience is always on-side.
If you disagree with the writers' viewpoints, awesome! You'll get just as many laughs as someone who agrees, because there's no ego – they aren't too proud to mock themselves and their beliefs (I genuinely believe that Seth isn't, either), which is essential for any amount of tolerability. There's no point at the end of the episode where they go "Yeah, we've had some fun tonight, but here's how you really need to think..." – it's just a bunch of jokes, and you can judge them on whether they're funny or not. Almost like it's some kind of... entertainment.
The internet's obsession with savage clapbacks is killing well-written media, I think. Everyone loves to complain that Ohhhh every show feels so corporate and bland these days, but really that's because if HBO put out Six Feet Under today, they'd immediately be buried in comments by people too smart to fall for such frivolous entertainment about feelings and death. Their marketing managers would not like this outcome.
This has also killed good gaming nerds on YouTube, I feel. I mean, I remember when Ashens could tell you about obscure japan-exclusive SNES games like nothing. 90% of Gaming YouTube today is just people who know how to buy Kirby plushies.
I agree with you. I can't really say precisely why that is, but it seems a lot of media have - excuse me for coining a term out of thin air here - a low emotional budget.
What do I mean by that? in many ways there seems to be a general failure when it comes to emotional committal and depth, at least when in regards surface level consumption. It all circles back to money, in the end - if something is far too dark, brooding or emotionally charged, it might just not sell; no sell, no profit, no go.
There are exceptions, of course, but as a rule, we as a species would rather not have to negotiate with our emotions head on, and so most media won't dip too far into the emotional well.
The reasons for this are many, but prevalently I would wager the internet is to blame, as is the baseless scrutiny of people via this medium. One might well be intensely ridiculed for having an emotional outburst at an anime or game, should they be so brave (or foolish) as to share that online openly.
Games absolutely can (and should) be a deep, emotional and engaging medium whenever possible, whenever the story being relayed to and experienced by the player allows this.
I'm not sure if I just rambled or if I, in fact, added to the conversation, but there you go.
As a closer, @goregoregoregoregoregore, if you do decide to eat my kidney, please be gentle about it.
This attitude of self-awareness is key to whether or not irony is tolerable. In Family Guy, the jokes are all dumb and simple, but the show knows that and doesn't try to tie them all in with some agonizingly-trite moral (like South Park does). Functionally, you could say there's little difference between Seth MacFarlane and Toby Fox or the guy who makes Pop Team Epic (or whatever, those were just the first two things that came to mind), but what makes the former better is that there's no ego – everyone on Family Guy is a joke, but Family Guy is the biggest joke of all, so the audience is always on-side.
If you disagree with the writers' viewpoints, awesome! You'll get just as many laughs as someone who agrees, because there's no ego – they aren't too proud to mock themselves and their beliefs (I genuinely believe that Seth isn't, either), which is essential for any amount of tolerability. There's no point at the end of the episode where they go "Yeah, we've had some fun tonight, but here's how you really need to think..." – it's just a bunch of jokes, and you can judge them on whether they're funny or not. Almost like it's some kind of... entertainment.
Ya, while I am not a huge Family Guy fan (as their humor varies wildly in quality, and frequently not for the better), I have to give McFarlane credit for not going the same route Parker & Stone went while also being able to occasionally insert a moral in a way that fits the comedic structure. Meanwhile Parker & Stone's style is basically Ayn Rand with poop jokes: so adamant about pushing a "moral" that all the comedy comes to a screeching halt for a monologue that beats you over the head with its pseudo-morality.
Is this really such a problem in modern (post-2020 or so) video games, or media at all? I can't think of anything that's come out recently that's overly ironic, even in the indie space. I'm pretty sure we passed peak irony in the 2010s.
This is something that kinda bothers me about video-games and modern culture in general. Why being sincere is almost frowned upon nowadays?
I know this isn't something new or something exclusive to gaming, but i believe it's very present in it and it's similar cultures. I'm talking about the apparent necessity to never truly commit to something without hiding a few layers of irony in it. I notice how almost all games now have this sort of quirky ironic mentality to present any topic even if the game has a dramatic story. I notice how most players seem unable to appreciate something as it is without turning it into a memefest, or simply thinking being committed to a feeling is being "cringe".
I think the fear of appearing cringe is something that hinders many thoughtful stories from achieving their potential. I think gaming in general is past the phase of being portrayed as just silly things we mess around for fun, it showed it's capacity to tell good and deep stories, but we kinda regressed in everything being portrayed as ironic in some degree. I never like when developers make a game with a deep dramatic story to just suddenly decide to double down on irony and jokes.
Obviously i'm not against funny games, i think not everything has to be serious sure, and there is some games that did this balancing very well, like LISA or even Cyberpunk 2077, because they implemented the humor in the whole universe of their games, it doesn't feel something forced and unrealistic, it feels like that world is just like this, it's a good separation between the heavy themes and the absurd humor. View attachment 34353
I don't know if all of this is a "me" sentiment, i also believe that there is plenty of people that disagree to certain degree and think that games shouldn't have any deep meaning or story, and that they should indeed be just funny little things to mess around, i confess that even i had this sentiment about gaming for a very long time, as being a person primarily raised with retro pc games, ID Software games and their old classic mentality towards gaming.
What could be done to change this? Is there any problem at all? Do you want it to be like that? i never saw much discussions about this in gaming. I think this isn't just a discussion about gaming in general but how modern society behaves too, so feel free to give your opinion about that
This thread shall not die while I'm here! Now arise said thread and serve the goregore king once again.
Being sincere and genuine is met with mockery being serious about issues is mocked everything on the internet turns into a meme with 7 layers of irony , shock humor , dark humor all run rampant across the internet...
Oh a terror act of blowing up pagers? Yeah lets turn that into a meme , like how? Why? WHY do you make light of everything?
I have my own experience with this you know the "nothing matters" the "don't take life seriously" and such BS phrases? Yeah I followed them and didn't put any hard work and look at me now still trying to get diploma while I should be 3rd year college
Its this cynical , everything is a joke mentality and it dehumanizes you , yes it does you may think im exaggerating but when the only emotion you feel is laughter or joy what's that? You can't sit down and watch a genuine emotional moment from lord of the rings without "oh they are so cringe" I was BURNING from inside why? Why i Can't take this moment seriously why do I only have to laugh at it? I felt so silly not a human....I couldn't go a day without this internet meme humor that lacked any sincerity...or genuine emotion.
You may or may not have read my story about how I actually could feel something else a genuine emotion finally feeling I'm a human with a game that takes itself seriously Silent hill no jokes no laughs , dread and torment fear and terror is all there was playing that game and it actually hit me how this internet culture this nihilistic overly cynical irony layered piece of filth is what we have to go through nowdays.
And its why I like this site people are actually real like they feel real they don't mock each other in the slightest , its....good to have a place like this with actual human beings and not edgy 14 year olds who think cranking the 9999th terrorist joke when I speak is funny.
This thread shall not die while I'm here! Now arise said thread and serve the goregore king once again.
Being sincere and genuine is met with mockery being serious about issues is mocked everything on the internet turns into a meme with 7 layers of irony , shock humor , dark humor all run rampant across the internet...
Oh a terror act of blowing up pagers? Yeah lets turn that into a meme , like how? Why? WHY do you make light of everything?
I have my own experience with this you know the "nothing matters" the "don't take life seriously" and such BS phrases? Yeah I followed them and didn't put any hard work and look at me now still trying to get diploma while I should be 3rd year college
Its this cynical , everything is a joke mentality and it dehumanizes you , yes it does you may think im exaggerating but when the only emotion you feel is laughter or joy what's that? You can't sit down and watch a genuine emotional moment from lord of the rings without "oh they are so cringe" I was BURNING from inside why? Why i Can't take this moment seriously why do I only have to laugh at it? I felt so silly not a human....I couldn't go a day without this internet meme humor that lacked any sincerity...or genuine emotion.
You may or may not have read my story about how I actually could feel something else a genuine emotion finally feeling I'm a human with a game that takes itself seriously Silent hill no jokes no laughs , dread and torment fear and terror is all there was playing that game and it actually hit me how this internet culture this nihilistic overly cynical irony layered piece of filth is what we have to go through nowdays.
And its why I like this site people are actually real like they feel real they don't mock each other in the slightest , its....good to have a place like this with actual human beings and not edgy 14 year olds who think cranking the 9999th terrorist joke when I speak is funny.
Seriously...
These kind of people are the worst.
They're the type of people who got way too used to making fun of others and not getting punched in the face for it.
Seriously...
These kind of people are the worst.
They're the type of people who got way too used to making fun of others and not getting punched in the face for it.
Yup the sort of people who you think are cool kids to hangout with in school then once you do , you realize they are the most shallow and unfunny people ever the whole time you be saying in your head "how...how did I end up here?"
Yup the sort of people who you think are cool kids to hangout with in school then once you do , you realize they are the most shallow and unfunny people ever the whole time you be saying in your head "how...how did I end up here?"
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