"The Beatles Aren't Good" Paradox.

[Sanarchy]

Essentially, the title means historical relativism.
I spoke with my friend about my thoughts about The Twilght Zone, the 1959's TV show that became a cultural phenomenon - so much so that swathes of media alike which released in the hereafter are inspired by its twists. Rod Serling's writing in that show had set historical grounds . . . Which might not be so compelling for people today having grown up with its shadow influencing everything we grew up on and watching this once impactful show nowadays.

After watching Ultra-Q which was inspired by The Twilight Zone & The Outer Limits, I found myself staggering to think more about the questions the show wants you to take a moment to ponder about the questions that were revolutionary topics that Rod is infact infamous for in history. I wonder what would have happened if I had watched The Twilight Zone before Ultra-Q.

This led my friend to bring up this highly interesting paradox of him, and several others not exactly enjoying the musical group the Beatles as much as others as the once incredible techniques which became the foundation of today's rock and pop' sounds isn't as interesting as it was before with people who grew up in the time of The Beatles. It creates a highly interesting focal discussion of how much things we enjoy now, that when we try to watch what inspired it or set the standard it's not as impressive to us nowadays in the present.

Did you ever grow up with certain things and later to experience what inspired all of it? How did you feel trying to go back in time and relive that which was ground-breaking then?

 

[RestoredaftrLostv2]

British Invasion....they lost the revolution, but won the music fans all over the world.

 

[ArchienineZXAdventArchienineZXAdvent's icon]

I can think of cases like earlier videogames, these set the grounds for more polished ones. Like Galaxian being one of the first vertical shmups and influencing another legendary games like Space Invaders or Gradius doing the same with horizontal ones like Darius or R-Type.
But i never experienced too much the original ones so i can't give a very deep answer.

 

[BrawlMan]

The Beatles were talented men, but I never cared much for them. My parents like them, but even they know The Beatles are small potatoes compared to any of the talent that came from Motown. I never buy in the hype for too many musicians and artist I don't listen towards. I decide for myself.

I admit, I can't stand any of Kid Rock's music anymore. Not to mention, the butt fuck is a total scumbag. A similar case for people like Diddy or Kanye West. Though I stopped listening to Diddy's music when I was 15, and Kayne West I was done with in late 2008 when I turned 19. I am glad I never looked back on either.

 

[Heidegger of Shinra]

The Beatles are not only as good as they seemed back then, they are better than we even realise. Modern music itself might become a footnote in the history of the Beatles.
Jesus was just one of many spiritual teachers in his time, and the Beatles were even bigger than him!

 

[lestagio]

The Beatles are objectively pioneers in music. That being said, I do not like to listen to them. We can talk about all the different techniques and ideas that they used first, but then other bands would simply take those ideas and do them... better. I give the Beatles credit for their ideas, but I don't like their music much. That's not to say they aren't good— music is subjective.

The same can be said for many types of media, though. You see online how Citizen Kane is the "best movie of all time". It was innovative for its time. Many of the tropes and ideas that it created are still used to this very day. But there's just so, so many movies that I'd rather watch than fuckin Citizen Kane.

Video games. Yeah, Super Mario Bros. really started the whole level-based platformer concept. But Mario 3 and World did it better in every single way. Or a controversial one, but I don't thing OOT is even CLOSE to the best Zelda game. It's a good game. It was very innovative. It invented all sorts of concepts. But I think that many of the other games just took its concepts and ran with them and used them far better.

Sometimes, something groundbreaking can stay very fresh years later. While I disagree, this is how many people feel about OOT. Meanwhile, my point of argument is that just because something is groundbreaking and innovative doesn't necessarily mean it's the best. The Ford Model T was the first mass produced car that was more accessible to people, but you don't hear people going "The Ford Model T is the best car of all time!"

 

[LiberoVulpesLiberoVulpes's icon]

After going through tons of VNs and text-adventures, I did give Zork a try, and, although I can see how much it influenced the medium, going back to the time before all the refinements wasn't that good of an experience.

Or how much influence Ever17 and Rance have had on the Visual Novels medium, although both are still good if someone were to go back and play them.

I don't see the point of caring about things just because they are influential, even if they didn't exist, something else would have anyway, its not like things happen in a vacuum.

The Beattles ARE trash, they just happened to come out at the right time, if they didn't exist, something else would have.

 

[4C374552A1CA2638]

It even has its own trope name, "Seinfeld is Unfunny", but it naturally applies to any medium.

You can argue that all of us are perpetually living in groundbreaking times and will see what comes from them similarly reiterated upon to overdone oldness. Case in point for games: Follow-the-leader-ism with genres. How many Soulslikes or Bullet Heavens were there 20 years ago? What about MOBAs or MMOs which had their time in the sun and are kinda rare nowadays?

 

[MajorMachina]

its the same way how media that was once considered edgy and controversial is now seen as fairly tame.
For example, play the game Night Trap, a game that caused such an uproar, it was even debated in Congress. Nowadays, its pretty much just a really goofy FMV game

 

[BrawlMan]

Case in point for games: Follow-the-leader-ism with genres. How many Soulslikes or Bullet Heavens were there 20 years ago? What about MOBAs or MMOs which had their time in the sun and are kinda rare nowadays?

Or cover shooters that are stuck in the genre/console generation they started in, only to be forgotten about more than games they were going to supposedly "replace and be the new normal and standard"?

 

[G.L.a.D.O.S.]

As pointed out, it's not so much that The Beatles aren't good. They were absolutely talented and to this day, still have good music. I'm not a fan of them myself, but I can respect the talent and what their music led to. Like any other type of music, country, gospel, etc. I'm not a fan of those genres, but as with The Beatles, I can appreciate the talent it takes.

Much like how movies like The Texas Chain Saw Massacre (1974) was seen as ultra gory and gruesome in their day, they now pale in comparison and are considered mild at best by today's standards. That's something most people forget. They judge things from 30+ years ago by the standards today, when they should be judged by the standards of their own era.

During The Beatles' heyday, they were a massive and almost unstoppable force in music, much like Elvis Presley, Stevie Wonder, and Marvin Gaye. Their influence can never be ignored or dismissed.

But, to answer the thread question "The Beatles aren't good"

No, in my opinion, their music is subpar at best. Again, I respect the talent, I just don't like the music.

 

[SpcDaicon SpcDaicon]

I think people have a wrong approach when in contact with things that inspired their favorite things. I don't think you should expect to love Y just because it inspired X, if you love X, you will love it regardless of what came before it, if Y was the same as X, than its just a copy with no originality.

I think the correct way to approach something that inspired the stuff you love is to have a better understanding of the thing you love and have a better understanding of the creator (or creators) of the thing you love.

I love RahXephon, an mecha anime of the early 2000 wich is heavely based on 70's Yuusha Raideen (people say RahXephon is a Evangelion copy, but this is a discussion for another time) as the creators said over and over. I don't care about Raideen and never bothered to watch it and probably never will. This means Raideen is bad? No, it just means my enjoyment of it has no bearings on my enjoyment of RahXephon.

I think people should approach things more critically and enjoy things as they are, even if the only enjoyment is to better understand the works old things inspire

 

[Dr.Kisaragi Dr.Kisaragi]

I am not a fan on Beetles I'm more of Beach Boys.

 

[Ikagura]

When a thing sets a new standard it becomes de facto less interesting compared to things that improved upon said base.

This is why I tend to see people not finding Mario 64 nor Zelda OoT that fun to play when a ton of games have learnt upon these two.

 

[BrawlMan]

This is why I tend to see people not finding Mario 64 nor Zelda OoT that fun to play when a ton of games have learnt upon these two.

The same thing happened with Devil May Cry 1 (even then, people tend to still respect it more, even if or when they don't enjoy it), Double Dragon, Streets of Rage 1 (everyone still praises the music), and the original Arcade Strider.

 

[Tenshishi]

I guess it depends on your ability to see the entire picture of something.

When I first tried Joust on the Atari 5200 last year, I was blown away by how smooth it played, and how good the sound and visuals were... This was after having just finished Guardians of the Galaxy on PS5, which looks ever so slightly better than Joust. I was still aware of just how limited Atari 2600 experiences could be, as well as familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of the NES that would follow; being able to weigh that difference made it easy for me to appreciate the achievement that was Joust 5200.

But obviously, that's not a universal "skill", nor does it universally apply. Relating to your literal example, I may be able to technically understand and appreciate the impact The Beatles had on music, but that doesn't mean I don't still genuinely dislike their work. I don't hear I'll Cry Instead and think of it with that Joust-like appreciation "oh man this is really peppy and bright, I can see how it influenced so many people", I think "this is like a weird hiccup between the genuine good of the blues and rock & roll, and the true peak of bubblegum. Why would anyone like this?"

 

[Ikagura]

The same thing happened with Devil May Cry 1 (even then, people tend to still respect it more, even if or when they don't enjoy it), Double Dragon, Streets of Rage 1 (everyone still praises the music), and the original Arcade Strider.

Perhaps it's the price you pay for pioneering things. I cannot blame people for finding Street Fighter II The World Warriors to be too slow and floaty so they'd rather play Turbo or Super.

I expected people to be harsher about Final Fight (especially since it's quite hard) than SoR 1.

 

[Pearly]

They sound derivative to my ears, but only because they pioneered a lot, and as such, I heard everyone do some of what they did over the course of my life but not the beatless themselves.

An example would be little dark age by MGMT, apparently very, very similar to the late experimental Beatles sound based on what I have been told. I also happen to love that album.

But there's also the personalities being bigger than the music thing. I am not spending my free time listening to music by Paul Macartney and John Lennon. They both annoy me.

 

[CSmith327]

I think in the case of things that are regarded as being conceptually perfect by critics it's not that they aren't good, it's just that you don't personally like them.

Like take The Beatles, Elvis, Michael Jackson, Led Zeppelin, The Ramones, Metallica, Black Sabbath, etc whose output are usually considered like 5/5 or 10/10 by a majority of critics and that have the sales numbers to back it up.

You can consider any one of those to be absolute shit, but that doesn't change the fact that they're generally thought of as being good. It's just that you find yourself unable to enjoy or find interest in them. I guess the same can be said for literally every form of media.

 

[DjQuick2008]

the 70s absolutely trounced the 60s when it came to music. Could argue elvis is there in the 60s as well but the 70s was a whole vibe. If you want a birthday party swinging break out the 70s music.

 

[BrawlMan]

xpected people to be harsher about Final Fight (especially since it's quite hard) than SoR 1.

Final Fight gets by because even though the arcade and Sega CD versions are (unfairly) tough, there are plenty of exploits and game breaking maneuvers you can do to get by. Especially if you're playing various ports/compilation ports (Capcom Collection Volume 1/Remixed, Beat'em Up Bundle, Final Fight CD, & Final Fight One [GBA]) that allow rapid punch enabled. Another thing will Final Fight, is that the game is still fast paced and speedier than Double Dragon, its many clones/inspirations, or Golden Axe. And unlike the original TMNT arcade game, that are actual combos and mechanics. TMNT is fun, but you really don't have that many moves, even compared to Final Fight. TMNT makes up for it with the 4 player cabinet, and the high environmental activity.

 

[Bakuma1997]

That's a whole trope

In my case it must go to Hokuto No Ken, back in the day it was the rock, pushoing the limits of how many Ketchup you can show on TV and with a great plot at the time, good luck explaining how impactful it was to, say, someone that saw Dragon Ball or Berserk

 

[goldman2786]

For me it was Conan the barbarian. Specifically the 1980s Arnie movie. I watched it and it was really good. However, I realized I would have liked it even more if I watched it before Samurai Jack, berserk, and other media I love was so heavily influenced by it. Still good though.

 

[Alkider]

Seinfeld isn't good? WRONG! Seinfeld did it first XD

But yeah it's crazy to think about, stuff like Wizardry and Rouge practically set up the framework for RPGs and rouge likes on electronics and the influence is seen in so many games down to the mechanical level. It's awesome!

Post automatically merged: Today at 12:02 AM

That's a whole trope

In my case it must go to Hokuto No Ken, back in the day it was the rock, pushoing the limits of how many Ketchup you can show on TV and with a great plot at the time, good luck explaining how impactful it was to, say, someone that saw Dragon Ball or Berserk

Hell, bring up fist of the north star and you're more likely to have a JoJo discussion XD

 

[bombatomba77]

I never really understood the Beatles until I saw that documentary Get Back (and the original it took from, Let It Be). I still don't like most of their music, although at this point in my life I can admit some of that is built on the prejudice I had back in the 90's when it always felt like the Boomers were shoving it down my throat (and who were so quick to dismiss modern music). They had a great look in the 60's, and it was utterly fascinating watching them put an album together. They deserve the accolades they have.