Question for the JRPG nerds...

[Strategist's icon Strategist Strategist]

This is from a 1993 interview about Secret of Mana:

"Koiichi Ishii: Part of the difficulty was that we were trying to hybridize a traditional turn-based RPG and an action RPG, and that brought up a lot of unexpected problems. If we had tried to make a pure action RPG, I think it would have been easier, but our way necessitated a lot of time-consuming revisions."

The creator acknowledges that it's a hybrid system. OP keeps saying "the Mana series", which means he probably thinks they all play the same. They don't. Secret is a hybrid system.

Post automatically merged: May 8, 2025

Don't know where you got that info, but Albert Odyssey on the Saturn has a regular turn-based system.

Yeah, but in Secret of Mana 2 and onwards they did away with the charge meters. It became an action franchise.

 

[MrChester]

maybe a game like Emerald Dragon would be up your alley. If that's the case then chances are you'll have to dig into the Japanese PC scene to find to first title of this kind since console stuff was either full-blown action or turn-based at the time I think.

Emerald Dragon is a game I'm definitely checking out. I heard about it a while ago and that info on the different versions is much appreciated.

This is from a 1993 interview about Secret of Mana:

"Koiichi Ishii: Part of the difficulty was that we were trying to hybridize a traditional turn-based RPG and an action RPG, and that brought up a lot of unexpected problems. If we had tried to make a pure action RPG, I think it would have been easier, but our way necessitated a lot of time-consuming revisions."

The creator acknowledges that it's a hybrid system. OP keeps saying "the Mana series", which means he probably thinks they all play the same. They don't. Secret is a hybrid system.

I get where you're coming from with the Mana series. The root of my issue with including here though is about conceit. I think - the Mana series - when looking at entries before and after Secret of Mana it becomes apparent that action was at the forefront of game design much more than RPG. They are taking a predominantly action formula and adding RPG elements on top of that. Parasite Eve, Crisis Core, etc., however, seems more like an attempt to add more action and agency into a traditionally turn-based combat system. What I mean to say is that I don't think SoM or the Mana series had much influence over this splinter of turn-based-ish RPGs

 

[Cantarella]

Yeah, but in Secret of Mana 2 and onwards they did away with the charge meters. It became an action franchise.

Huh? We're talking about SD3/Trials of Mana, when we talk about SoM2 right? I dunno about the games after that, but that game is way more rpg-like than Secret of Mana. You have a very distinct delay after landing an attack in which you can't attack again, you are [probably] constantly going into the menu to use spells that have noticeable charge times, and the entire arenas tend to be so cramped that there really is no space to like... do anything but let the stats/equipment of you and the enemy rub against each other. Not that there would be a point in moving most of the time since a lot of enemies just freeze the screen to perform techs on you.

 

[MDGeistsfavMC5song]

Emerald Dragon is a game I'm definitely checking out. I heard about it a while ago and that info on the different versions is much appreciated.

I get where you're coming from with the Mana series. The root of my issue with including here though is about conceit. I think - the Mana series - when looking at entries before and after Secret of Mana it becomes apparent that action was at the forefront of game design much more than RPG. They are taking a predominantly action formula and adding RPG elements on top of that. Parasite Eve, Crisis Core, etc., however, seems more like an attempt to add more action and agency into a traditionally turn-based combat system. What I mean to say is that I don't think SoM or the Mana series had much influence over this splinter of turn-based-ish RPGs

if you end up enjoying Emerald Dragon, the writer and character designer moved from Glodia to Right Stuff and made a game called Alshark that is essentially a sci fi fantasy sequel to Emerald Dragon... almost identical gameplay mechanics but an unconnected story... i dont think there is an english patch for it tho, unlike Emerald Dragon...

 

[Strategist's icon Strategist Strategist]

Huh? We're talking about SD3/Trials of Mana, when we talk about SoM2 right? I dunno about the games after that, but that game is way more rpg-like than Secret of Mana. You have a very distinct delay after landing an attack in which you can't attack again, you are [probably] constantly going into the menu to use spells that have noticeable charge times, and the entire arenas tend to be so cramped that there really is no space to like... do anything but let the stats/equipment of you and the enemy rub against each other. Not that there would be a point in moving most of the time since a lot of enemies just freeze the screen to perform techs on you.

Yes, Seiken Densetsu 3/Secret of Mana 2 (i refuse to call it Trials of Mana). It has a cooldown on attacks, but it is a very short delay. The spells do have casting times, but that isn't necessarily a turn based thing, it is an important way of preventing spell spam and balancing spellcasters with melee.

 

[Cantarella]

My point is that it's just not really an action game. Like, there's very little difference between a player who is good at moving around in arpgs playing that game and one that has no experience with that. Because... there's almost no space to move and no point in moving in the first place! You are just shoved into a closet to engage with the enemies in point-blank battles that are solely about numbers.

 

[Strategist's icon Strategist Strategist]

My point is that it's just not really an action game. Like, there's very little difference between a player who is good at moving around in arpgs playing that game and one that has no experience with that. Because... there's almost no space to move and no point in moving in the first place! You are just shoved into a closet to engage with the enemies in point-blank battles that are solely about numbers.

I didn't say it was a good action game. Just that it was an action game. It definitively isn't the best realized action game, I get that, lol.

 

[MrChester]

Ok so guys, I think I have an answer that satisfies me and I was a bit too hasty to discount Mana but not quite for the reasons people think.

So firstly what I'm getting is that for this specific sub-genre or style or whatever you wanna call it... yeah, Parasite Eve was the first. But there is a progression that lead to it that includes Mana. Obviously a lot of these games are all Squeenix and I think you can chart a sort of progression of their experimentation with merging Action and RPG systems. I think the combat seen in Parasite Eve feels like a natural progression of the systems seen in Chrono Trigger (I saw gameplay for the first time about 20 mins ago which is what shook me). Mana as well I think plays a role in this progression, specifically in defining what P.E isn't. In my head, Squeenix liked what they did with Mana but wanted to try a different angle, experimented with a full system with Chrono Trigger and some elements with FF7, and I guess that hint of Resident Evil influence was the push to make a new system.

Eventually the system is expanded with Vagrant Story, FF7CC, and other companies have a go like with Ni No Kuni.

So I got my answer but you guys have highlighted an interesting question: first ARPG? Surely there's some good stuff that pre dates Mana, right?

 

[moonbits]

*record scratch*
.. you haven't played Chrono Trigger?

 

[Cantarella]

What elements of FF7? I assume we mean the original game?

As to the first arpg, there's some primordial Falcom game that I can't remember. I think Dragon is in the title. People say its the first one but have never really examined it.

I didn't say it was a good action game. Just that it was an action game. It definitively isn't the best realized action game, I get that, lol.

Is it? It's a game where battles play out very similarly regardless of whether or not you move your character at all once the fight starts and there is an overwhelming emphasis on stats/classes/equipment. The turns are even very much *there*, even if they're more frequent. SoM has way more 'actiony' components in practice. Guess I don't see why the absence or inclusion of a visible 'charge meter' makes this one an action game. All the rpg systems seemed to be what they were focusing on when making the combat and it's definitely the one thing that the player has to engage with to succeed.

neway JUST my 2c... realize i'm being slightly overbearing about this old snes game lol. maybe bc I've done like 20 playthroughs.

 

[UnDubious]

First game credited as a ARPG is often Dragon Slayer, but it's a side-scroller and doesn't feel that much like a what I think of as an ARPG. The original computer version(s) of Hydlide is top-down and closer to subsequent action RPG. There are tons of ARPGs on the Genesis and SNES, SoM is not one of the best honestly.
--Seiken Densetsu 3 does have disguised turn-based elements. The constant breaks in the action and the weird pace of it are not just because "it's not a good action game", they're, again, a result of the idea of creating a hybrid between turn-based and real-time, which was expressed clearly by the creator Koiichi Ishii. I guess some of you don't see it because it doesn't have command menus for regular attacks during battles.

 

[MrChester]

I'm ngl, I only know Suikoden in passing - always got put off of it because of something called "The Final Fantasy house". I just looked up gameplay and I really don't get why people are bringing it up? If I'm missing something do correct me but it really just looks very typical turn-based rpg. I just brought up footage and I swear you could have convinced me it was a sequel to Breath of Fire 2. Also @UnDubious at first I was totally ready to agree with you about Dragon Slayer but after seeing some footage idk - it might be ugly as heck and sound awful but that looks like an ARPG to me however you wanna slice it

where do we fall on Rogue and other mystery dugeon style games as ARPGs? I always thought they were but now I'm thinking the more real time elements play an important role in defining ARPGs

 

[UnDubious]

Also @UnDubious at first I was totally ready to agree with you about Dragon Slayer but after seeing some footage idk - it might be ugly as heck and sound awful but that looks like an ARPG to me however you wanna slice it

Oh you're right, I had it confused with some other '80s game.

I get what you're saying about Mystery Dungeon. It's technically 100% turn-based - enemies only move when you move. But because a button press instantly results in a hit, it feels closer to action. I'd say they're somewhere in between. A real action RPG provides more of a thrill in battle, while a tough battle in Mystery Dungeon gives you time to think about what move or item might get you out of it.

Suikoden is 100% turn-based (and very good).

 

[Action_Hank]

Action RPGs? The progenitor for those would probably be Tales of Phantasia, released on SNES (1995) and later ported to PS1 (1998)

lmfao are you fucking with me? never heard of Zelda 2?

But yea, quick google search says Dragon Slayer for PC 8801 in 1984.

Since I can read though, I never saw an ATB system until FFX-2. But as far as something close to this, Quest 64 is the only one I can think of. Parasite Eve predates its release by 3 months thougheverbeit.

 

[MrChester]

lmfao are you fucking with me? never heard of Zelda 2?

But yea, quick google search says Dragon Slayer for PC 8801 in 1984.

Since I can read though, I never saw an ATB system until FFX-2. But as far as something close to this, Quest 64 is the only one I can think of. Parasite Eve predates its release by 3 months thougheverbeit.

YOOOOOOO!!! This is great. For a start - Zelda 2 - bangin game.
But man, shit like Quest 64 is exactly what I was looking for. I'd never heard of Quest 64 until just now and it's actual really wild to see another company stumble across a similar formula at around the same time. Makes me wonder if something is being overlooked that came out around 96-97 that no one has mentioned yet. Thanks, Hank

 

[Action_Hank]

YOOOOOOO!!! This is great. For a start - Zelda 2 - bangin game.
But man, shit like Quest 64 is exactly what I was looking for. I'd never heard of Quest 64 until just now and it's actual really wild to see another company stumble across a similar formula at around the same time. Makes me wonder if something is being overlooked that came out around 96-97 that no one has mentioned yet. Thanks, Hank

Talkin bout dang ol, my pleasure man. Have a diggity dang ol good time.
PS lemme know if you find the source plz

Post automatically merged: May 8, 2025

Oh and the Neptunia and Trails games are similar. Haven't played much of the NiS library, but they may hold the key

 

[Evaccaneer Doom]

lmfao are you fucking with me? never heard of Zelda 2?

But yea, quick google search says Dragon Slayer for PC 8801 in 1984.

Since I can read though, I never saw an ATB system until FFX-2. But as far as something close to this, Quest 64 is the only one I can think of. Parasite Eve predates its release by 3 months thougheverbeit.

Completely forgot about Dragon Slayer lmao. I played it on PC Engine a while ago
I know nothing of Zelda 2, always viewed that one as a weird in between of puzzle and action game

 

[MrChester]

Completely forgot about Dragon Slayer lmao. I played it on PC Engine a while ago
I know nothing of Zelda 2, always viewed that one as a weird in between of puzzle and action game

I actually really recommend Zelda 2. I'm not into Zelda very much - always felt they were a little too basic for my tastes (just preference, not a complaint), but Zelda 2 is all about the combat. I used to enjoy fencing quite a lot and the swordplay really reminds me of fencing. Be warned, it's less cryptic than Zelda 1 but still, keep a walkthrough close

 

[nobitakun]

Ohhh, I didn't recommend Quest64 because it was released after Parasite Eve, and I thought you would discard every game that is newer lol.

Quest64 is an amazing and very underrated game, where you level up by using your stats, as there are no levels per se. It's a lot of fun and is not a difficult game. In fact, you can get powerful enough in the first dungeon to finish the entire game.

Regarding Mana posts, I am very pleased to know it gets some love. I consider it a good game overall, but since I love co-op games (not multiplayer online), Seiken Densetsu 2 has a special place in my heart as I played it with friends when childhood. It's so pity nowadays is so hard to find someone to play it with, because with someone I could play it endlessly.

 

[MrChester]

By any chance do you know any more co-op rpgs?

I know Lord of the Rings: the Third Age allowed different controllers to control different party members. I'm super interested in co-op RPGs, deffo gonna play through secret of mana with a partner at some point but I heard the sequel dropped the co op and it never got picked up again?

 

[ATenderLad]

By any chance do you know any more co-op rpgs?

I know Lord of the Rings: the Third Age allowed different controllers to control different party members. I'm super interested in co-op RPGs, deffo gonna play through secret of mana with a partner at some point but I heard the sequel dropped the co op and it never got picked up again?

I can't think of many, I used to play Gauntlet Legends at the arcade (it's very light on RPG mechanics, admittedly), and of course there's Diablo and it's many offspring.

The Tales games have co-op in combat, or at least Tales of Symphonia on the Gamecube did.

 

[Evaccaneer Doom]

Ohhh, I didn't recommend Quest64 because it was released after Parasite Eve, and I thought you would discard every game that is newer lol.

Quest64 is an amazing and very underrated game, where you level up by using your stats, as there are no levels per se. It's a lot of fun and is not a difficult game. In fact, you can get powerful enough in the first dungeon to finish the entire game.

Regarding Mana posts, I am very pleased to know it gets some love. I consider it a good game overall, but since I love co-op games (not multiplayer online), Seiken Densetsu 2 has a special place in my heart as I played it with friends when childhood. It's so pity nowadays is so hard to find someone to play it with, because with someone I could play it endlessly.

I don’t think there will ever be a more polarizing RPG in terms of modern reaction than Quest 64

Guess I’ll have to check it out for myself

 

[Cantarella]

By any chance do you know any more co-op rpgs?

I know Lord of the Rings: the Third Age allowed different controllers to control different party members. I'm super interested in co-op RPGs, deffo gonna play through secret of mana with a partner at some point but I heard the sequel dropped the co op and it never got picked up again?

No, Seiken Densetsu 3 has co-op. I can't really say it's more fun to play that way though. Lot of screen freezing.

 

[UnDubious]

Cadash is a multiplayer side-scroller RPG that's 2 to 4 players depending on the version. Dungeon Explorer 1 & 2 on the Turbografx-16/TGCD can be played by up to 4 I think, they're RPGs with Gauntlet-style gameplay.

 

[MrChester]

I can't think of many, I used to play Gauntlet Legends at the arcade (it's very light on RPG mechanics, admittedly), and of course there's Diablo and it's many offspring.

The Tales games have co-op in combat, or at least Tales of Symphonia on the Gamecube did.

Oh man! I've always wanted to get into Diablo 2 but I feel like I missed the boat and the only people still on it are too hardcore for me. I preordered Diablo 3 when I was really small and it sucked ass.

Idk how social it gets around here but Diablo 2 is definitely something I feel needs a group effort and I got the effort needed to get a group together.

As I understand it characters can freely visit other worlds so dropping in and out of people's campaigns is easy