Indie Marvel Cosmic Invasion and modern Beat 'Em Ups.

In Shredder's revenge you don't have proper aerial combos, you can't use throws in the middle of your combos, you can't block and counter, you can't fly, no character has any reliable projectile attack, you can only use one character at a time so no tag team combos and every character plays exactly the same.

MARVEL Cosmic Invasion is at least 5 times more complex.
If those were wrapped into a single character you'd be correct. The entire breath of mechanics combined into a singular instance of a character would produce something more rewarding and complex than either SR or MCI, but nothing like that exists in either system. As is, SR is more complex. MCI, isn't. Neither system is terribly complex, but MCI is too stripped down for what it's going for. Needs moar.
 
If those were wrapped into a single character you'd be correct. The entire breath of mechanics combined into a singular instance of a character would produce something more rewarding and complex than either SR or MCI, but nothing like that exists in either system. As is, SR is more complex. MCI, isn't. Neither system is terribly complex, but MCI is too stripped down for what it's going for. Needs moar.
That is why you have a two character team in MARVEL Cosmic Invasion, with that you can do a lot more than you ever could in TMNT Shredder's revenge with just one character.
 
That is why you have a two character team in MARVEL Cosmic Invasion, with that you can do a lot more than you ever could in TMNT Shredder's revenge with just one character.
That's the game's feature mechanic. But, it's tied to a meter, which shares usage with an ultimate. That you will want to use. Also, connected to a liberation mechanic when you're grabbed up occasionally. Compare that to I-Frame roll dash, heavy attack, throw, and segue into strings and you're looking at a more beat 'em up feel and play style in SR. Still more dynamic than MCI. I think MCI needs more options for its individual characters. I'm not saying every character needs a throw, but every character that can throw should always be able to do so. And, those that can't should have more flexible supers/more strings to offset their play style.
 
Having only played the demo for Cosmic Invasion, it seems to have the same problem as most "revival" beat-'em-ups of the past few years, where "depth" is replaced with "content." Studios have been scratching their heads over how to market beat-'em-ups to the modern consumer who demands "endless" content, and have arrived at two solutions: bog the game down with RPG mechanics and grinding, or make it into a "roguelike." Neither solution is satisfactory because it basically kneecaps the gameplay of a beat-'em-up in favor of "number go up" systems or massively unbalanced "roguelite" upgrades which make the game piss-easy or super-hard depending on build (or lack thereof).

I really have to wonder who these games are for, other than nostalgists. Modern gamers are not going to play through a boomer beat-'em-up just because it has an upgrade system, and hardcore beat-'em-up fans (however many of them are left) are not going to walk away satisfied.

The most obvious concession to this lazy non-design is imo the inclusion of "dodge" and "block" systems (which aren't even distributed equally to all characters!), basically telling you that you have to "wait your turn" before you can respond to the enemy. And they double down on this conceit by making bosses damage sponges with lengthy periods of invincibility in-between AoE attacks you're supposed to just run away from. This goes completely against beat-'em-up gameplay which is about position, crowd control, resource management, and proactive play. This is the Dark Souls-ification of arcade games. It has more in common with an FFXIV raid than with Final Fight.

However I will give them that the sprite art and animations are gorgeous; that alone, combined with 90s Marvel nostalgia (which I am not immune to), is probably enough for most people, most of the time.
 
That's the game's feature mechanic . But, it's tied to a meter, which shares usage with an ultimate. That you will want to use. Also, connected to a liberation mechanic when you're grabbed up occasionally.
Yes, it's the game's feature mechanic, and there would be no point in it if every character played EXACTLY the same like in TMNT Shredder's revenge, also you can change caracters WITHOUT using your ultimate meter, a meter that regenerates fast bi the way.

Compare that to I-Frame roll dash, heavy attack, throw, and segue into strings and you're looking at a more beat 'em up feel and play style in SR. Still more dynamic than MCI.
Not true, in Cosmic Invasion the characters that have a dodge also have I-Frames and the characters that can't dodge can block/counter, the heavy attack/charge attacks have more variety and feel different for each character and at least half the cast can use projectile and/or aerial attacks which opens up plenty of combo options.
MARVEL Cosmic Invasion is far more dynamic.

I think MCI needs more options for its individual characters. I'm not saying every character needs a throw, but every character that can throw should always be able to do so. And, those that can't should have more flexible supers/more strings to offset their play style.
Wat are you talking about????? the characters that have grabs/throws can always use them, even in the air and the characters that can't throw can use projectile attacks and/or aerial attacks which opens up plenty of combo options that are just not possible in TMNT Shredder's revenge. What more flexibility do you need to realize that MARVEL Cosmic Invasion is the better game.

You sound like someone who never played MARVEL Cosmic Invasion.
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Having only played the demo for Cosmic Invasion, it seems to have the same problem as most "revival" beat-'em-ups of the past few years, where "depth" is replaced with "content." Studios have been scratching their heads over how to market beat-'em-ups to the modern consumer who demands "endless" content, and have arrived at two solutions: bog the game down with RPG mechanics and grinding, or make it into a "roguelike." Neither solution is satisfactory because it basically kneecaps the gameplay of a beat-'em-up in favor of "number go up" systems or massively unbalanced "roguelite" upgrades which make the game piss-easy or super-hard depending on build (or lack thereof).

I really have to wonder who these games are for, other than nostalgists. Modern gamers are not going to play through a boomer beat-'em-up just because it has an upgrade system, and hardcore beat-'em-up fans (however many of them are left) are not going to walk away satisfied.

The most obvious concession to this lazy non-design is imo the inclusion of "dodge" and "block" systems (which aren't even distributed equally to all characters!), basically telling you that you have to "wait your turn" before you can respond to the enemy. And they double down on this conceit by making bosses damage sponges with lengthy periods of invincibility in-between AoE attacks you're supposed to just run away from. This goes completely against beat-'em-up gameplay which is about position, crowd control, resource management, and proactive play. This is the Dark Souls-ification of arcade games. It has more in common with an FFXIV raid than with Final Fight.

However I will give them that the sprite art and animations are gorgeous; that alone, combined with 90s Marvel nostalgia (which I am not immune to), is probably enough for most people, most of the time.

TMNT Shredder's revenge and MARVEL Cosmic Invasion are not a "revival", those games are an evolution of a genre that was in dire need of modern game mechanics in order to stay relevant.
 
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I respectfully disagree. First because they are a "revival" insofar as they consciously evoke the arcade classics of yesteryear (through the TMNT and Marvel licenses). Second because 2D beat-'em-ups went through a period of pretty much non-existence throughout the 2000s, until digital games like Castle Crashers and Scott Pilgrim vs The World attempted to bring them back, i.e. "revive" them. Third because adding more stuff to a game does not "evolve" the genre. Slapping RPG or roguelike elements onto an action game is not "evolution," if anything its "de-evolution" as it takes agency away from the player and forces them to grind resources/roll the dice instead of just sharpening their skills.
 
Having only played the demo for Cosmic Invasion, it seems to have the same problem as most "revival" beat-'em-ups of the past few years, where "depth" is replaced with "content." Studios have been scratching their heads over how to market beat-'em-ups to the modern consumer who demands "endless" content, and have arrived at two solutions: bog the game down with RPG mechanics and grinding, or make it into a "roguelike." Neither solution is satisfactory because it basically kneecaps the gameplay of a beat-'em-up in favor of "number go up" systems or massively unbalanced "roguelite" upgrades which make the game piss-easy or super-hard depending on build (or lack thereof).

I really have to wonder who these games are for, other than nostalgists. Modern gamers are not going to play through a boomer beat-'em-up just because it has an upgrade system, and hardcore beat-'em-up fans (however many of them are left) are not going to walk away satisfied.

The most obvious concession to this lazy non-design is imo the inclusion of "dodge" and "block" systems (which aren't even distributed equally to all characters!), basically telling you that you have to "wait your turn" before you can respond to the enemy. And they double down on this conceit by making bosses damage sponges with lengthy periods of invincibility in-between AoE attacks you're supposed to just run away from. This goes completely against beat-'em-up gameplay which is about position, crowd control, resource management, and proactive play. This is the Dark Souls-ification of arcade games. It has more in common with an FFXIV raid than with Final Fight.

However I will give them that the sprite art and animations are gorgeous; that alone, combined with 90s Marvel nostalgia (which I am not immune to), is probably enough for most people, most of the time.
Didn't play the Demo myself only the main game so I'm not sure if there's any major differences. But, I would say the same problems apply to both. The game doesn't feel like a well made beat em up from the era its aping. So, it's an issue of quality more than anything else. I say "shallow," but that's my own buzz word for it. There were beat em up from the arcade era that were terrible, too. Knights of the Round and a number of earlier Capcom titles are two button exercises of foot game and little else. And, then you had stuff like Alien vs Predator, which almost included an entire fighting system on top of a beat em up game. Really good. In fact, I guess I would say that is probably the major quality determiner. How much stuff can you do and is it fun. Take a personal favorite of mine

Ninja Saviors
1765393055860.jpeg

It only has one "plane" you can walk down, but you can duck, jump, and sometimes experience elevation differences in the maps, too. Almost like a platformer. However, it's an incredibly complex game. You've got guard, mobile guards, different types of jumps and air combos, ground combos, super combos, four throws with different tactical applications, character specific throws, variance in strengths of ducking or standing depending on the character, and then another character that almost plays like an entirely different game (two characters in one, both huge with higher amounts of enemy spawned in). Different affects each character can have on bosses. For example the two larger characters have the ability to pick up super huge opponents and can move with them. Smaller characters only have a static "grab" for their throws. Regardless, the game has no RPG elements and no Rouglite elements, each play through is only an hour long. But, if you get into it, you're looking at ten hours of content, easy. And, probably more like twenty. All from the systems feeling so good and being so fun to use.
 
I played through Ninja Saviors last year with every character and had a blast. I agree that it's a much more replayable and well-designed game, despite being very unique and unusual for its genre. When it comes to arcade-style games the tiny design decisions matter a lot, because they're meant to be short and highly-replayable. In the case of Cosmic Invasion it feels like the game backs away from this philosophy because it doesn't want to stress the player out too much. So you're either completely un-challenged (fighting random mooks) or playing a Simon Says game (with a boss). Your bad decisions can never snowball into FUBAR'd game outcomes because the player is not "really" supposed to lose, while in arcade games you ARE supposed to lose (and learn something from it).
 
I played through Ninja Saviors last year with every character and had a blast. I agree that it's a much more replayable and well-designed game, despite being very unique and unusual for its genre. When it comes to arcade-style games the tiny design decisions matter a lot, because they're meant to be short and highly-replayable. In the case of Cosmic Invasion it feels like the game backs away from this philosophy because it doesn't want to stress the player out too much. So you're either completely un-challenged (fighting random mooks) or playing a Simon Says game (with a boss). Your bad decisions can never snowball into FUBAR'd game outcomes because the player is not "really" supposed to lose, while in arcade games you ARE supposed to lose (and learn something from it).
MCI needs some patches and expansion to its core design. Wouldn't surprise me at all if it got much better with subsequent updates. Some meaner mobs being a nice addition.
 
I respectfully disagree. First because they are a "revival" insofar as they consciously evoke the arcade classics of yesteryear (through the TMNT and Marvel licenses). Second because 2D beat-'em-ups went through a period of pretty much non-existence throughout the 2000s, until digital games like Castle Crashers and Scott Pilgrim vs The World attempted to bring them back, i.e. "revive" them. Third because adding more stuff to a game does not "evolve" the genre. Slapping RPG or roguelike elements onto an action game is not "evolution," if anything its "de-evolution" as it takes agency away from the player and forces them to grind resources/roll the dice instead of just sharpening their skills.

Bullshit of the highest order; if new and well implemented mechanics like aerial combos, blocks/parries and dodges don't help to evolve the genre then what does?, and how can those mechanics "de-evolve" the gameplay and take player agency away???, also who is talking about RPG or roguelike elements?; I don't remember TMNT Shredder's revenge and MARVEL Cosmic Invasion having any RPG or roguelike elements.
 
Bullshit of the highest order; if new and well implemented mechanics like aerial combos, blocks/parries and dodges don't help to evolve the genre then what does?, and how can those mechanics "de-evolve" the gameplay and take player agency away???, also who is talking about RPG or roguelike elements?; I don't remember TMNT Shredder's revenge and MARVEL Cosmic Invasion having any RPG or roguelike elements.
I'd say those mechanics should be given to every character in the roster as a starter. Then, from there they should have diversified how each character did the same general pool of actions. And, flavored those actions accordingly to said character. These kinds of games thrive on a rock solid foundations, not differentiating peaks of random mechanics.
 
I'd say those mechanics should be given to every character in the roster as a starter. Then, from there they should have diversified how each character did the same general pool of actions. And, flavored those actions accordingly to said character. These kinds of games thrive on a rock solid foundations, not differentiating peaks of random mechanics.

In "MARVEL Cosmic Invasion" those mechanics where spread around the whole character roster in order to make every character feel/play in a distinct way, otherwise there would be no point in the game having more than 10 playable characters and a tag team system, also both "TMNT Shredder's revenge" and "MARVEL Cosmic Invasion" are considered an evolution of the "beat'em up"/"brawler" genre by the vast majority of the gaming community, so I really don't know what you are complaining about.
 
In "MARVEL Cosmic Invasion" those mechanics where spread around the whole character roster in order to make every character feel/play in a distinct way, otherwise there would be no point in the game having more than 10 playable characters and a tag team system, also both "TMNT Shredder's revenge" and "MARVEL Cosmic Invasion" are considered an evolution of the "beat'em up"/"brawler" genre by the vast majority of the gaming community, so I really don't know what you are complaining about.
I already explained exactly what I was talking about several times. And, calling MCI an evolution is an exaggeration. It's not, it lacks features you can find in titles released years ago. It is bereft of technical depth and content. And, it comes up short in comparison to other titles released by the same studio in the same genre. They would have been better off with half the cast that had twice the options available than twice the cast with the present move set.
 
I already explained exactly what I was talking about several times. And, calling MCI an evolution is an exaggeration. It's not, it lacks features you can find in titles released years ago. It is bereft of technical depth and content. And, it comes up short in comparison to other titles released by the same studio in the same genre. They would have been better off with half the cast that had twice the options available than twice the cast with the present move set.

Lies and more lies, Marvel Cosmic Invasion is a much needed evolution to the shallow gameplay of most "street of rage wanna be" games on the market, and what are those "features you can find in titles released years ago" go ahead, show me an example if you can.
 
I laugh when people talk about evolution in the genre. It hasn't evolved in years. Neither has the fighting game genre. Just the same ole shit over and over again

This game is still better than 90% of the beat em ups to come out in recent years


and Streets of Rage 4 is easily outclassed by Streets of Rage Remake.

Castle Crashers is more fun than the River City girls games despite how old the game is.

Scott Pilgrim is and always was mediocre.

Ninja Warriors is awesome, but it's a remake of a game from the 90s. The genre is not evolving at all. Most of the best games are still very old.
 

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