How do you feel about the damsel in distress?

[FTLOTG]

As long as it’s not blatantly displayed as ”the damsel must be saved because she is weak due to the fact she is a damsel” I think it’s mostly fine.

I don't see the problem with this, men want to protect those weaker than them. Would go counter to player motivation to see she's doing just fine and winning the day without you.

 

[Hourai]

You've probably seen less than you think. Those posters that use the female anime gifs in every posts aren't female.

There are inevitably female posters who don't use feminine avatars, too. Using a female avatar - or anything that would hint at being a woman, really - carries enough risk of being treated differently and being harassed. It's safer not to.

I'd imagine many such people wouldn't care to out themselves here, though. Especially given that this is a topic that's generally under the list of "only fools and men would talk about this in a male-dominated area."

 

[Ikagura]

Not inherently, no. But if they go out of their way to show that the damsel is incapable of nothing more than crying in a cage, I’d say it’s on the verge.

And what is the limit that someone is sexist? I like when the rules are clear and not variable depending of whom or the context.

People excuses cliches more easily in movies than in videogames sometimes.

Most games aren’t aiming for that kind of realism I feel, so whenever this gets brought up it usually feels like it’s just people are looking for an excuse to be actually sexist. Like claiming Samus or Lara Croft is suddenly too far from realism just because they’re babes.

The suspension of disbelief can vary from person to person but in the same way even if a world isn't realistic there are still sets of rules applied by said universe and if the world looks like Earth, has human or human-like people and has many objects from the real world the whole "it's not supposed to be realistic" kinda falls appart.

Samus Aran has a power suit that acts both as an armour as well as an exoskeleton that gives her a better jumping ability and a faster speed than most humans as well as genetic alterations from the Chozo giving her more strength than the average homo sapiens sapiens.

Lara Croft by herself is a much more athletic woman that got a lot of training (seen in the tutorial level in her manor) as well as having experience in tomb raiding.

On the other hand if a woman that looks neither athletic nor has some help (like something giving her superpowers) then the suspension of disbelief kinda falls appart. Same would have happened if a "nerdy" looking man would lift a car even if it's not meant to be realistic (unless it's for comedic purposes).

Wizards usually look like frail old men who would keel over if they win at bingo, but they can throw fireballs so their physical appearance is never questioned.

Because they have magic, that's not like they'd carry a bastard sword like a barbarian.

Even in Dnd there are in-universe rules.

 

[Tonberry]

I don't see the problem with this, men want to protect those weaker than them. Would go counter to player motivation to see she's doing just fine and winning the day without you.

That wasn’t my point, the point was that ”a woman not being allowed to have agency because she is a woman” is a crummy stereotype.
Of course protecting the weak is a fun and fulfilling fantasy like I said in my other post, but the weak shouldn’t be portrayed as weak specifically due to their gender.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 4:21 PM

And what is the limit that someone is sexist? I like when the rules are clear and not variable depending of whom or the context.

If someone is perceived as inferior specifically due to their gender? Seems pretty clear to me, is there even anything to argue there?

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

I don't see the problem with this, men want to protect those weaker than them. Would go counter to player motivation to see she's doing just fine and winning the day without you.

It wasn't an issue until some feminist studies major started deconstructing classic video game tropes for youtube views. By the time these videos became popular, the games in question were already decades old. It was clickbait and a attempt to degrade video gamers as sexist.

 

[Ikagura]

Of course protecting the weak is a fun and fulfilling fantasy like I said in my other post, but the weak shouldn’t be portrayed as weak specifically due to their gender.

While I agree that women =/= weak there's an objective truth that usually female of mammalian species have a lower muscular mass than their male counterpart.

Speaking of Ashley she's the daughter of a politician that hasn't ever had confrontations. Leon is a trained policeman that works for an organisation meant to fight against bioweapons. Jill Valentine is also stronger even if she's a woman but ultimately Chris is still stronger than both.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 4:25 PM

It wasn't an issue until some feminist studies major started deconstructing classic video game tropes for youtube views. By the time these videos became popular, the games in question were already decades old. It was clickbait and a attempt to degrade video gamers as sexist.

I think I know which one you're talking about. She didn't fall into irrelevancy years ago?


Anyway, I think that the "weak damsel in distress" and the "strong independent woman" are both faces of the same coin and they are nowadays both cliche to the point of becoming both jarring and unoriginal.

Deconstructions of archetypes and subversion of expectations are not making a story systematically better.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

While I agree that women =/= weak there's an objective truth that usually female of mammalian species have a lower muscular mass than their male counterpart.

Speaking of Ashley she's the daughter of a politician that hasn't ever had confrontations. Leon is a trained policeman that works for an organisation meant to fight against bioweapons. Jill Valentine is also stronger even if she's a woman but ultimately Chris is still stronger than both.

There's nothing wrong with portraying women or men as weak. Many of us wouldn't survive the type of situations portrayed in video games and would be reduced to damsel/hostage type roles.

 

[Ikagura]

There's nothing wrong with portraying women or men as weak. Many of us wouldn't survive the type of situations portrayed in video games and would be reduced to damsel/hostage type roles.

I'm no sociologist but a man being weak has more chances to get mocked by his peers (or is shown as a comic relief) whereas a woman being strong is more often praised for managing in life.

 

[Sheepy765]

Rule of the internet: there's no women.

What? There aren’t?

Anyway, I think that the "weak damsel in distress" and the "strong independent woman" are both faces of the same coin and they are nowadays both cliche to the point of becoming both jarring and unoriginal.

I wholeheartedly agree. The “damsel in distress” is a trope as old as forever and the “strong independent woman” feels like an over correction creating another trope that people have done to death.

Can I not just have a well-written and nuanced character that just happens to be a girl?

 

[CG4R12I4N]

Women is already by default strong.

Most men would inevitably cry helplessly at things their wife could do like a fucking champ: childbirthing and childraising.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

I'm no sociologist but a man being weak has more chances to get mocked by his peers (or is shown as a comic relief) whereas a woman being strong is more often praised for managing in life.

Idk I see it all the time in video games. Little kids, hostage villagers, old men, merchants, etc...

 

[Tonberry]

While I agree that women =/= weak there's an objective truth that usually female of mammalian species have a lower muscular mass than their male counterpart.

Well, yes? But this thread was about a trope in fiction.

Because they have magic, that's not like they'd carry a bastard sword like a barbarian.

That was kind of my point.
Lots of dudes have this thing where every imaginable made-up concept works with no questions asked until they see a relatively normal-looking woman kill an orc with a sword. I just don't get why such a strange cutoff point is so common, unless you (not as in you Ikaguraa specifically, "you" as in generally speaking) actually just don't want to see action women, which I think is even weirder.

if the world looks like Earth, has human or human-like people and has many objects from the real world the whole "it's not supposed to be realistic" kinda falls appart.

That feels very pick-and-choosy to me. Fantasy for example often looks like medieval europe at a glance, but it very rarely actually is, and everything is haightened from the get go. And people can throw lightning bolts out of their hands.

I don't disagree with the idea that there are common cliche'd portrayals of both weak men and strong women, but I think that comes from the observer being too obsessed with tropes to care enough about the characters, and the writers not doing a good enough job at selling you the character from the get go, so the first reactions are always "wow what a tired subversion". I don't even think cliches are a bad thing as long as they're done sincerely and with intention.

Larger-than-life characters should be allowed to exist, as should traditional archetypes, regardless of gender on both points, but they shouldn't necessarily have to enforce outdated stereotypes that could be potentially harmful (like woman = weak or gay = flowery pansy for example), be it unintentional or not.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 4:41 PM

Can I not just have a well-written and nuanced character that just happens to be a girl?

 

[Mopeybloke]

Remember: men are men, women are also men, and children are FBI agents.

The trope is eye rolling to me as a premise, but I probably wouldn't mind so much if it happens a while into the game. Kidnappings do happen, and women are good hostages.

 

[Ikagura]

What? There aren’t?

It's just an old internet joke.

There Are No Girls on the Internet | Know Your Meme

“There are No Girls on the Internet” is a tongue-in-cheek adage which implies that there are no female entities actually participating in online activities

knowyourmeme.com

I wholeheartedly agree. The “damsel in distress” is a trope as old as forever and the “strong independent woman” feels like an over correction creating another trope that people have done to death.

Can I not just have a well-written and nuanced character that just happens to be a girl?

Absolutely, Mary Sues are a beginner's mistake when writing a character, being too strong/polyvalent without any actual major flaw makes one boring and sadly a lot of writers seems to not have that lesson.

Making a nuanced character is quite the challenge regardless of gender, it'd be better to not think too much about what they are when making characterisation.

 

[Tonberry]

Making a nuanced character is quite the challenge regardless of gender, it'd be better to not think too much about what they are when making characterisation.

100%

I think outwardly simple (or "static") characters are my favorite, like Conan or Goku for example (not video games I know) and, inversely, I had a kind of preconceived notion against all the Baldur's Gate 3 characters where I assumed they were all Poochies at first glance, but was very happy to learn that they're some of the most fleshed out and "human" characters I've encountered in a role-playing game.

Though my favorite video game characters of all time are probably Ichiban from Yakuza 7 and Yuna from FF10. They both wear their archetypes on their sleeves, but they grow more complex the more time you spend with them, which I really like.

 

[Graw]

I know a few that have verbally identified as female. I don't want to put them on blast but they exist.

I'm aware this is the case. That's not who I was referring to. I've noticed over my long time on the internet that female anime reaction gif posters are never women whatever they say otherwise.

Anyway, so I'm staying on topic. I've never really thought much about damsel in distress stories in games unless they include some kind of annoying escort quest that makes them annoying to play.