Comics Character Woes

[Mr. Daddy]

Just a thread for characters you feel have been missed, went a direction you didn't like, got underused, or just overall have been going through an unsatisfying rough patch.

I'll start with my personal pick:

With how many times he's been brought back as a mentally unstable villain it just makes me sad to see him at this point. I miss the old Ben.

 

[Nidoking's iconNidoking]

Marvel has no idea what the hell they're doing with her. She belongs in Todd's hands.

 

[RanmyakuIchi's icon RanmyakuIchi RanmyakuIchi]

 

[Mr. Daddy]

Yeah... This one also hurts... At least the EU handled him considerably better for the most part

 

[Antilocal123]

Every character because they aren't constantly sucking me off.

 

[Cuestionador]

Firestorm was a fun character, but since the John Ostrander run his comics are getting worse and worse with each incarnation (at least he appeared in Justice League Action). Doomsday Clock was the nail in the coffin for him, it's time to give this guy a break. Something similar goes to Captain Atom, in my childhood i really enjoyed the Cary Bates/Pat Broderick run, today the old Nathaniel is a plot device to cause an explosion, with the only exception of things like Multiversity: Pax Americana.

 

[ATenderLad]

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Firestorm was a fun character, but since the John Ostrander run his comics are getting worse and worse with each incarnation (at least he appeared in Justice League Action). Doomsday Clock was the nail in the coffin for him, it's time to give this guy a break. Something similar goes to Captain Atom, in my childhood i really enjoyed the Cary Bates/Pat Broderick run, today the old Nathaniel is a plot device to cause an explosion, with the only exception of things like Multiversity: Pax Americana.

Titans Collide, Worlds Burn - Clash Of Them Dudes What Powers Change With Every Writer!

Firestorm practically requires a writer who's interested in science to have a fun time with the character, like Mark Waid playing with velocity and relativistic physics in The Flash back in the 90's. He's got another person yelling science at him inside, he's a edutainment gold mine!

You're completely right about Atom too, Alan Moore really ended that characters whole career with Dr. Manhattan. On that note, have you read the recent Jenny Sparks series by Tom King? It's a really scary version of the character, if a little too derivative of Moore. (King loves Moore like Grant Morrison loves Jack Kirby).

 

[Octopus]

Just a thread for characters you feel have been missed, went a direction you didn't like, got underused, or just overall have been going through an unsatisfying rough patch.

I'll start with my personal pick:
View attachment 29552
With how many times he's been brought back as a mentally unstable villain it just makes me sad to see him at this point. I miss the old Ben.

I literally came in here to post him, glad I'm not the only one. As terrible as the Clone Saga obviously was, Ben Reilly I think was actually a cool idea and should have gotten the deal that Miles now has, as a concurrent main Spider-Man alongside Peter. It sucks what's repeatedly happened to him.

I'm always sad there's been a lack of major Taskmaster appearances, he usually just appears as a mook or a hired gun here and there but I think the character has some potential for a little more.

 

[Cuestionador]

Titans Collide, Worlds Burn - Clash Of Them Dudes What Powers Change With Every Writer!

Firestorm practically requires a writer who's interested in science to have a fun time with the character, like Mark Waid playing with velocity and relativistic physics in The Flash back in the 90's. He's got another person yelling science at him inside, he's a edutainment gold mine!

You're completely right about Atom too, Alan Moore really ended that characters whole career with Dr. Manhattan. On that note, have you read the recent Jenny Sparks series by Tom King? It's a really scary version of the character, if a little too derivative of Moore. (King loves Moore like Grant Morrison loves Jack Kirby).

I was reading the King version, and i really think that it's beating a dead horse, doing a parody of Authority and Jenny Sparks (with all his flaws, i prefer reading something written by Mark Millar). I'm not a fan of Tom King, and i really despise his treatment of Steve Ditko and Frank Miller in the Rorscharch miniseries, i think it was distasteful in the first case and offensive in the second. I enjoyed his Vision miniseries, but Human Target and Danger Street were an absolute trainwreck, with good art. I hope Milligan returns to the character someday, his run it's still perfect.

 

[ATenderLad]

I literally came in here to post him, glad I'm not the only one. As terrible as the Clone Saga obviously was, Ben Reilly I think was actually a cool idea and should have gotten the deal that Miles now has, as a concurrent main Spider-Man alongside Peter. It sucks what's repeatedly happened to him.

Manhattan is the only place where Peter Parker makes sense, and a clone running around is a bit cramped, but make up a new world out in space and you can do whatever you like with him and still have his powers/skill set make sense. I think they should have gone cosmic with him, possibly even as Venom instead of Flash Thompson. (Basically just rattling off fan-fiction here, but I'll stand by it!)

I'm always sad there's been a lack of major Taskmaster appearances, he usually just appears as a mook or a hired gun here and there but I think the character has some potential for a little more.

He's had some pretty great comedic turns, though he's usually getting paired up with Deadpool, who I think kinda crowds him and dilutes his whole shtick.

I was reading the King version, and i really think that it's beating a dead horse, doing a parody of Authority and Jenny Sparks (with all his flaws, i prefer reading something written by Mark Millar). I'm not a fan of Tom King, and i really despise his treatment of Steve Ditko and Frank Miller in the Rorscharch miniseries, i think it was distasteful in the first case and offensive in the second. I enjoyed his Vision miniseries, but Human Target and Danger Street were an absolute trainwreck, with good art. I hope Milligan returns to the character someday, his run it's still perfect.

It really is a parody, mixed with....well, have you seen the joke about how given enough time and writing gigs, Tom King is going to confess to war crimes one day? Jenny Sparks really felt like the one for a minute there, the guy has a *lot* to say about the Global War on Terror; from the perspective of a CIA employee!

I love that you brought up Millar, I think he's a great comparison for King. They both kinda approach capeshit comics with a bit of a "Oh, you *like* this?" mentality; where Millar mocks you for it, King is looking to "elevate" things, in a sense. I don't hate that, entirely - comics *can* be a little too silly and insular a lot of the time, and it's good to keep some perspective - but there's definitely limits of good taste.

(I really can't stand Wanted, for example).

I don't think it's all bad with King, like you said The Vision was great, and I really enjoyed his Strange Adventures, which was a really sharp rebuke of a kind of pulp sci-fi story with a pretty good twist or two. I'm ready for his run on Wonder Woman to be over though, I'm not sure I appreciate him making her a mourning wife and single mother.

 

[Octopus]

Manhattan is the only place where Peter Parker makes sense, and a clone running around is a bit cramped, but make up a new world out in space and you can do whatever you like with him and still have his powers/skill set make sense. I think they should have gone cosmic with him, possibly even as Venom instead of Flash Thompson. (Basically just rattling off fan-fiction here, but I'll stand by it!)

I'd pay money to read about cosmic Ben Reilly fighting shit in space. You could have him be a Spider-Man in a different city; it's been a hot minute but I think originally after they once again deduced he was a clone he went to San Francisco for a bit when he was blonde and first got the Sensational suit? I could be wrong, maybe I'm mixing it up with Venom and the Lethal Protector since he also went to SanFran.

He's had some pretty great comedic turns, though he's usually getting paired up with Deadpool, who I think kinda crowds him and dilutes his whole shtick.

His DP battles were great, love the idea of Deadpool being so insane he can't copy him. This is of course also fan fiction, but his brief time in the Thunderbolts during Civil War was pretty good; have him come back in a different team idea like that. My vote would be on a new lineup of Force Works, but that's just my insane fan fiction.

 

[Cuestionador]

It really is a parody, mixed with....well, have you seen the joke about how given enough time and writing gigs, Tom King is going to confess to war crimes one day? Jenny Sparks really felt like the one for a minute there, the guy has a *lot* to say about the Global War on Terror; from the perspective of a CIA employee!

I love that you brought up Millar, I think he's a great comparison for King. They both kinda approach capeshit comics with a bit of a "Oh, you *like* this?" mentality; where Millar mocks you for it, King is looking to "elevate" things, in a sense. I don't hate that, entirely - comics *can* be a little too silly and insular a lot of the time, and it's good to keep some perspective - but there's definitely limits of good taste.

(I really can't stand Wanted, for example).

I don't think it's all bad with King, like you said The Vision was great, and I really enjoyed his Strange Adventures, which was a really sharp rebuke of a kind of pulp sci-fi story with a pretty good twist or two. I'm ready for his run on Wonder Woman to be over though, I'm not sure I appreciate him making her a mourning wife and single mother.

King has a good eye for artists, Omega Men it's another good comic done by him. Millar it's hit or miss, but his run in Swamp Thing, Cannon Fodder, Revolver Horror Special, Tales from Beyond Science, Saviour, Chosen and so on. The man know hows to write and make a good story, i enjoyed Wanted as a commentary on the dark age of superhero comics, but it some ways it's like The Boys: a poor man's Marshal Law.

 

[Octopus]

King has a good eye for artists, Omega Men it's another good comic done by him. Millar it's hit or miss, but his run in Swamp Thing, Cannon Fodder, Revolver Horror Special, Tales from Beyond Science, Saviour, Chosen and so on. The man know hows to write and make a good story, i enjoyed Wanted as a commentary on the dark age of superhero comics, but it some ways it's like The Boys: a poor man's Marshal Law.
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I've always heard of this, but have never read it. That cover alone gets a hell yeah from me.

 

[ATenderLad]

I'd pay money to read about cosmic Ben Reilly fighting shit in space. You could have him be a Spider-Man in a different city; it's been a hot minute but I think originally after they once again deduced he was a clone he went to San Francisco for a bit when he was blonde and first got the Sensational suit? I could be wrong, maybe I'm mixing it up with Venom and the Lethal Protector since he also went to SanFran.

I might not have read that bit in San Fran, but I *think* Ben was in Houston of all places for awhile, on some team book. (The Champions, maybe?) I guess technically anywhere with tall buildings works, although the Houston skyline means he's swinging in like the same couple city blocks back and forth, just scoping out muggers like a crime fighting tether-ball.

His DP battles were great, love the idea of Deadpool being so insane he can't copy him. This is of course also fan fiction, but his brief time in the Thunderbolts during Civil War was pretty good; have him come back in a different team idea like that. My vote would be on a new lineup of Force Works, but that's just my insane fan fiction.

Oooo but I like that, I'mma need you to come up with the rest of that Force Works roster for me I wanna hear it.

 

[ATenderLad]

King has a good eye for artists, Omega Men it's another good comic done by him. Millar it's hit or miss, but his run in Swamp Thing, Cannon Fodder, Revolver Horror Special, Tales from Beyond Science, Saviour, Chosen and so on. The man know hows to write and make a good story, i enjoyed Wanted as a commentary on the dark age of superhero comics, but it some ways it's like The Boys: a poor man's Marshal Law.
View attachment 75058

You keep giving me new books to look up and read, and I APPRECIATE IT.

 

[Octopus]

Okay, here's my hot take; Punisher. I'm not talking about that whole recent 'leader of the Hand' thing that happened, that's not even worth mentioning (also, Frank's just back as the Punisher now anyway so it doesn't even matter). I don't like how dominating Punisher MAX was for his characterization and pop culture image for the longest time. I mostly like the MAX series (it started out incredible, but then Ennis started inevitably going off the rails a bit before he left and then it really dwindled near the end) but it really turned the popular characterization of him for the next decade or so into essentially being just an exaggerated sadist. Punisher stopped asking moral questions of "is this right to do?" and I think just became about the violence, ironically kinda missing the point of the character in the first place. Going back to some of his early work, like the great War Journal runs or Chuck Dixon's work or even the early Marvel Presents issues, the violence was just a tool and wasn't the starring aspect of the character.

This is probably a mostly fandom and pop culture complaint, to be fair. I was looking back over the Punisher movies a few months or so ago and I kept encountering anonymous internet people saying "War Zone was the best one since it was violent, it understood the character since it was based on the MAX run!" as if all you need to write the Punisher is comical levels of violence, ignoring that he was a popular character even when they couldn't show him knife a guys intestines out. The movie is also terrible, by the way, and I think those people saying it's great are silly and just want to clap when they see skullman somehow punch through straight through someone's head despite being a normal human strength level.

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

 

[Mr. Daddy]

View attachment 75043
Firestorm was a fun character, but since the John Ostrander run his comics are getting worse and worse with each incarnation (at least he appeared in Justice League Action). Doomsday Clock was the nail in the coffin for him, it's time to give this guy a break. Something similar goes to Captain Atom, in my childhood i really enjoyed the Cary Bates/Pat Broderick run, today the old Nathaniel is a plot device to cause an explosion, with the only exception of things like Multiversity: Pax Americana.​

There's so much about Firestorm that I love conceptually that it's always killed me a little inside knowing that it feels like nobody knows how to use him, both from a power standpoint and a character standpoint. I definitely feel for you on this one. Captain Atom I think has the problem of effectively being replaced in multiple ways, just between the universe he comes from not really getting a focus anymore and Dr. Manhattan taking up a bit of the spotlight from him in more recent years. Too many characters have had that same fate.

​

I literally came in here to post him, glad I'm not the only one. As terrible as the Clone Saga obviously was, Ben Reilly I think was actually a cool idea and should have gotten the deal that Miles now has, as a concurrent main Spider-Man alongside Peter. It sucks what's repeatedly happened to him.​

I also actually really liked the concept of him taking over from Peter and letting Peter largely retire. I imagine he still would have been around to help occasionally and all, but between having a brand new character to play around with and meet and getting to let Peter have a pretty satisfying direction in his life, that's probably one of the most satisfying "what we could have had" things that just won't escape my brain.

​

I'm always sad there's been a lack of major Taskmaster appearances, he usually just appears as a mook or a hired gun here and there but I think the character has some potential for a little more.​

I especially agree with this because of his memory loss. It's been played with some, but I can't help but feel like there's way more untapped potential than has really been actually used. I'd love to see a story where some characters he trained but doesn't remember at all have some issue with them so he has to deal with them and figure out what happened or something like that.

​

Manhattan is the only place where Peter Parker makes sense, and a clone running around is a bit cramped, but make up a new world out in space and you can do whatever you like with him and still have his powers/skill set make sense. I think they should have gone cosmic with him, possibly even as Venom instead of Flash Thompson. (Basically just rattling off fan-fiction here, but I'll stand by it!)​

I could certainly live with this if things turned out this way. Could have also been pretty cool to maybe let him sort of be that drifter type of hero for a little while too, trying to find a place to settle. I'm sure inevitably that'd be somewhere with lots of tall buildings, but it's not like there's a shortage of places like that.
​

Okay, here's my hot take; Punisher.​

I don't think I could agree with this more. There was a long time in my life where I was only familiar with stuff that was current at the time for the character, and that was well after Frank had stopped really being what he was originally envisioned as. Having a character that everyone always talked about being interesting because of that "is this the right thing to do" mentality doesn't really work for me if it never comes up. If I wanted a character that was just going to be hyper-violent, I'd read something else that gives the character more personality than most of the Punisher writers that just focus on the violence tend to do.​

 

[Octopus]

I also actually really liked the concept of him taking over from Peter and letting Peter largely retire. I imagine he still would have been around to help occasionally and all, but between having a brand new character to play around with and meet and getting to let Peter have a pretty satisfying direction in his life, that's probably one of the most satisfying "what we could have had" things that just won't escape my brain.

Same, I often think of what a solo Ben Reilly series set after the Clone Saga would have been like. Peter's retired so he could actually do anything else but still shows up to coach him a little bit, Reilly's swinging around in his eternally underrated Sensational suit and fighting maybe even some new villains; it could have been great. There was the briefest moment where that was the plan of course, but then De Falco got cold feet over the whole thing and went back on it like every other thing in the Clone Saga.

If I wanted a character that was just going to be hyper-violent, I'd read something else that gives the character more personality than most of the Punisher writers that just focus on the violence tend to do.

Exactly. I don't mean to harp on the MAX run that much, as at first it was still a well written series and a great example of how to re-imagine a character, just that it's effect on the character was negative afterwards.

 

[Cuestionador]

Okay, here's my hot take; Punisher. I'm not talking about that whole recent 'leader of the Hand' thing that happened, that's not even worth mentioning (also, Frank's just back as the Punisher now anyway so it doesn't even matter). I don't like how dominating Punisher MAX was for his characterization and pop culture image for the longest time. I mostly like the MAX series (it started out incredible, but then Ennis started inevitably going off the rails a bit before he left and then it really dwindled near the end) but it really turned the popular characterization of him for the next decade or so into essentially being just an exaggerated sadist. Punisher stopped asking moral questions of "is this right to do?" and I think just became about the violence, ironically kinda missing the point of the character in the first place. Going back to some of his early work, like the great War Journal runs or Chuck Dixon's work or even the early Marvel Presents issues, the violence was just a tool and wasn't the starring aspect of the character.

This is probably a mostly fandom and pop culture complaint, to be fair. I was looking back over the Punisher movies a few months or so ago and I kept encountering anonymous internet people saying "War Zone was the best one since it was violent, it understood the character since it was based on the MAX run!" as if all you need to write the Punisher is comical levels of violence, ignoring that he was a popular character even when they couldn't show him knife a guys intestines out. The movie is also terrible, by the way, and I think those people saying it's great are silly and just want to clap when they see skullman somehow punch through straight through someone's head despite being a normal human strength level.

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

It's easy to take Punisher and Ennis run at surface value, personally i think Garth works better when paired with a good editor who traces the line with certain limits (it's for this reason that i think that both Crossed and The Boys are some of the weakest stuff in Ennis career). I enjoyed his MK run's of The Punisher and the MAX version, but i have the first three Essentials of the character and in some ways, these old comics with Micro and the Van tell similar stories without gore or ultraviolence.

 

[Octopus]

I enjoyed his MK run's of The Punisher and the MAX version, but i have the first three Essentials of the character and in some ways, these old comics with Micro and the Van tell similar stories without gore or ultraviolence.

I do too, and yeah they are still some great stories despite still being mostly Comics Code compliant. I have nothing really against the MAX run itself, just the lowest common denominator of the Punishers fandom's reception to it basically. I'll even defend the run when it first started as it had ultra violence combined with some great characterization people now gloss over. The 'Nam flashbacks were great, I loved the fairly nuanced depiction of his PTSD and the resulting depression when he came home; it's just a shame a lot it gets glanced over now because it was cool when Ma Gnocchi got her limbs eaten by polar bears.

 

[Cuestionador]

I do too, and yeah they are still some great stories despite still being mostly Comics Code compliant. I have nothing really against the MAX run itself, just the lowest common denominator of the Punishers fandom's reception to it basically. I'll even defend the run when it first started as it had ultra violence combined with some great characterization people now gloss over. The 'Nam flashbacks were great, I loved the fairly nuanced depiction of his PTSD and the resulting depression when he came home; it's just a shame a lot it gets glanced over now because it was cool when Ma Gnocchi got her limbs eaten by polar bears.

The past week, i met the artist of the last issues of the 'Nam, Alberto Saichann (one of my favourites, still working for Commando at nearly eighty years old) and he tell in a talk about that the editor of the 'Nam didn't wanted an argentinian artist to draw Vietnam, but when he send the first batch of pages, the same editor gave him a letter of apology, telling him it was one of the finest and more accurate depiction of the Vietnam War in comics. These issues are only collected in the TPB Punisher Invades 'The Nam. BTW, in the Pre-Ennis era i have a soft spot for the miniseries Punisher: Year One, it's a great recap of the character.

 

[ATenderLad]

This might be a little off base for the thread, but the character of Red Hulk is a constant snooze to me. "Thunderbolt" Ross and his relationship to the Hulk made sense for decades, and they have a classic bit of drama between them. He's his most persistent antagonist, but (eventually) also his literal father-in-law. Given the nature of Hulk stories and how often they involve his personal trauma, that stuff kinda writes itself.

...and it did! For a long time, and it makes sense to update to re-interpret things after awhile. I don't think making Ross a Hulk is a great evolution for the character or the dynamic, though. In fact, the weirdest thing is that after the initial debut arc by Jeph Loeb and Greg Pak, Red Hulk has almost no connection to Banner whatsoever. They don't come into contact, and Red Hulk is just off in his own weird stories, or being a spare "big guy" for the odd team book. (Not that I even think he's that interesting as a foil; being"The Hulk but red" is about as on the nose as a comic book antagonist can get).

 

[Octopus]

This might be a little off base for the thread, but the character of Red Hulk is a constant snooze to me.

I agree. I haven't read much Red Hulk stuff to be fair (really only a bit of Thunderbolts when he was leading the team with Frank and Elektra and shit) but part of that is largely because I think he's pretty lame for the reasons you said. Villains/side characters becoming Hulks seems to be a lazy trend now that I think about it; Rick Jones became A-Bomb, Betty became a Red Hulk, Doc Samson maybe qualifies at some points. It's a little strange. Betty Red Hulk had a little more going on than Ross did, at least.

 

[Cuestionador]

This might be a little off base for the thread, but the character of Red Hulk is a constant snooze to me. "Thunderbolt" Ross and his relationship to the Hulk made sense for decades, and they have a classic bit of drama between them. He's his most persistent antagonist, but (eventually) also his literal father-in-law. Given the nature of Hulk stories and how often they involve his personal trauma, that stuff kinda writes itself.

View attachment 79786​

...and it did! For a long time, and it makes sense to update to re-interpret things after awhile. I don't think making Ross a Hulk is a great evolution for the character or the dynamic, though. In fact, the weirdest thing is that after the initial debut arc by Jeph Loeb and Greg Pak, Red Hulk has almost no connection to Banner whatsoever. They don't come into contact, and Red Hulk is just off in his own weird stories, or being a spare "big guy" for the odd team book. (Not that I even think he's that interesting as a foil; being"The Hulk but red" is about as on the nose as a comic book antagonist can get).

I read somewhere that Red Hulk was inspired by the character of Timothy Treister of Venture Bros (who is already a parody of Thunderbolt Ross), even transforming into a red hulk in season six.