"Champions" of preservation GOG wont promote the STOP KILLING GAME campaign...

[goldman2786]

While everyone is going on about corporates or whether DRM free is truly cracked , I think one key factor is the limited ability of change depending on the government. The SKG initiative and petition is ONLY for EU residents. Meanwhile, GOG is world wide(they just made initiatives for Brazillian fans). How the hell is someone from the US or anyone outside the EU supposed to help in a newsletter to sign something they themselves cannot sign?

 

[garnavis]

Also, GOG does not sell "products with no DRM". They sell products that got cracked by pirates, and their DRM *removed*. If they could make a buck putting them back in, they would. Just like they managed to remove the same ISOs from the abandonware sites.

I don't really your problem here. If a file has had its DRM removed, it has no DRM. Distributing game files with no DRM is better for preservation than distributing game files with DRM, because the game can later be run without a CD/manual/internet connection/whatever. I don't think they're necessarily altruistic for doing it, but materially, what they do is good for game preservation.

Also, they have resale agreements for the games they sell, it's not like they're just selling whatever shit they find on the pirate bay.

 

[Yankee]

GOG aren't naive YouTuber audience. They probably know the track record of internet petitions as well as not to entrench themselves in some kind of content creator lead cause.

 

[otogirisou]

the only viable option for preservation is piracy

 

[Waffles's iconWaffles]

the only viable option for preservation is piracy

But most endangered games cannot be pirated, either because key elements of the code are locked behind company servers or because you never actually get any data stored locally.

 

[_oBSOLEte_]

While everyone is going on about corporates or whether DRM free is truly cracked , I think one key factor is the limited ability of change depending on the government. The SKG initiative and petition is ONLY for EU residents. Meanwhile, GOG is world wide(they just made initiatives for Brazillian fans). How the hell is someone from the US or anyone outside the EU supposed to help in a newsletter to sign something they themselves cannot sign?

GDPR had a global impact despite being only an EU policy. Supposedly, Steam, Apple, Google, Meta, Amazon, GOG and al will extend user data regulations to any of their users, because they had to adapt to the EU market in the first place.

The newsletter could have reached EU users who could sign, and promote the other actions. GOG send a lot. and I mean a LOT of junk mail to drive their FOMO-based marketing. "Only 2:00 hours left to redeem your discount on that 30 years old cracked game". It's funny that people here, of all places, think it would have been a bad move to include some visibility for STOP KILLING GAMES in that trash to do some good for once.

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. True today more than ever I guess.

Post automatically merged: Apr 30, 2025

I don't really your problem here. If a file has had its DRM removed, it has no DRM. Distributing game files with no DRM is better for preservation than distributing game files with DRM, because the game can later be run without a CD/manual/internet connection/whatever. I don't think they're necessarily altruistic for doing it, but materially, what they do is good for game preservation.

Also, they have resale agreements for the games they sell, it's not like they're just selling whatever shit they find on the pirate bay.

I dont think putting a paywall on pirated games and getting them all on a single platform server is a good thing for preservation, materially. Also they make sure their "version" is the only one available. There's a few DOS games here in the Repo, I'm sure GOG employees would love for the links to be removed and a "Buy on GOG icon" displayed instead, like they managed to get on other abandonware sites.

Their "versions" are made for Win10/11 in mind, most of the time with an old version of DOSBox. I think people on Linux, Android, MacOS will have a better time with the original ISOs on a flavor of current DOSBox, and with QOL improvements like savestates, shaders, fast forward, etc. *If* they can find those ISOs in the first place nowadays, that is.

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

The only viable option for preservation is piracy.

It's sad to have to resort to the illegal way to preserve something.

But how will GaaS be pirated?

 

[Mini_Man.XW]

I think Stop Killing Games is good. It's important for the law to give us a definitive legal answer to if we actually own our digital products, even if they say we don't.

 

[_oBSOLEte_]

It's sad to have to resort to the illegal way to preserve something.

But how will GaaS be pirated?

Some dead GaaS have been preserved by leaked server code or server emulators. But it's a considerable effort. Here's an example : https://hawakening.com/

Without piracy we wouldn't have a GOG library to start with. It's far too late to be concerned by that anyway, GAFAMs have used pirated material for feeding their language models.

 

[mistymermaid]

I dont think putting a paywall on pirated games and getting them all on a single platform server is a good thing for preservation, materially. Also they make sure their "version" is the only one available. There's a few DOS games here in the Repo, I'm sure GOG employees would love for the links to be removed and a "Buy on GOG icon" displayed instead, like they managed to get on other abandonware sites.

Their "versions" are made for Win10/11 in mind, most of the time with an old version of DOSBox. I think people on Linux, Android, MacOS will have a better time with the original ISOs on a flavor of current DOSBox, and with QOL improvements like savestates, shaders, fast forward, etc. *If* they can find those ISOs in the first place nowadays, that is.

I don't necessarily agree it's fair to generalize where the DRM-free executables originated. I have no idea which publishers/developers had game builds without DRM, stored away in their internal company archives.

However... there's something to be said about "preservation" when the version being sold, doesn't run on the game's original system environment.

GOG could provide DOS executables or instructions how to get them, albeit with the disclaimer they might not be able to offer technical support.

 

[Android 18]

GOG is as pragmatic a company as any major player in the gaming storefront scene: actively aligning with a fundamentally anti-corporate intiative, in the sense of being an initiative that demands some sort of restaint and regulation on corporate agency, is one that the marketing department is going to stay away from. It can tacitly provide support with a lower-case s, but rarely do storefronts like these provide capital letter Support regardless of how clear-purposed the initiative is. It simply has no reason to stick its head out like that, either because of the relationships it has cultivated or because it can see the writing on the wall about this movement's success and is simply not going to be the odd duck out.

In the eyes of storefronts, consumers are meant to consume, not have demands. GOG generally have a good ethos but they're a for-profit company that has found a niche, they're not going to feign any interest in pro-consumer mandates that might one day be expanded in a way that upsets their particular apple cart.

 

[Waffles's iconWaffles]

The ironic part is that this isn't even a new problem as far as preservation goes... You could have been a legit buyer in the 80s and 90s, get your game and then lose it to a freak accident/misplacement of your impossible-to-read (let alone photocopy) "code wheel/sheet". The only reason so many old games are playable today is because someone cared enough to crack them. But even if that isn't your cup of tea, some games have survived with their copy protection intact, but saved (like Loom).

The key difference is that we aren't even allowed anywhere near the dead and dying games now, so we can't even take a crack aren't. And what a crappy feeling it is when those eyesore "anti-piracy" measures from before I was even born are the better option.

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

People seems to forget about Starforce or GFWL.

 

[Poltergeist]

It might be that some major game publisher contacted GOG and told them not to back this up, and GOG of course obliged, because their relationship with publishers are far more important than some morally correct vigilante who actually fight for game preservation.

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

It might be that some major game publisher contacted GOG and told them not to back this up, and GOG of course obliged, because their relationship with publishers are far more important than some morally correct vigilante who actually fight for game preservation.

What makes something "morally correct"? It's like saying that some opinions are more valid than others.

 

[Poltergeist]

What makes something "morally correct"?

Fighting for game preservation is morally correct. You don't think so?

It's like saying that some opinions are more valid than others

Some opinions are indeed more valid than others.

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

Fighting for game preservation is morally correct. You don't think so?

Preservation is good for any kind of medium I agree but then again is piracy always moral. I know that the repo is doing this but I'm mostly speaking about the more recent games. If something is still being sold in store I don't consider that pirating it is preservation whatsoever. For something to be preserved you need to have a reason (such as it no longer being legally available anymore) to prevent it to be lost forever.


This is why I personally consider it less moral to pirate an indie game made by a small group (if not one person) but some people wouldn't take the size of the company nor the age of the product into account.

Some opinions are indeed more valid than others.

According to whom? To what? How can someone be completely objective about the "validity" of an opinion.

Everyone has a level of bias (even to the smallest extent) so we cannot have a completely unbiased judge to qualify everyone's opinions and even if the majority of people were sharing the same opinion that wouldn't make it automatically the best nor the truth (people used to think the Sun was rotating around Earth centuries ago, this has been disproved since).
I'd also argue that our western point of view on things is not automatically better just because it's ours and we cannot force others to agree/believe it's the correct one.

But I'm digressing a lot and I won't go too much because it would lead to a political or political-adjacent conversation.

 

[Poltergeist]

How can someone be completely objective about the "validity" of an opinion

It's very bad to cut your arms off and make you a disabled person. Do we need to question the "validity" of that opinion? Am I bised here? Stop replying to me with nonsense, please.

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

It's very bad to cut your arms off and make you a disabled person. Do we need to question the "validity" of that opinion? Am I biased here? Stop replying to me with nonsense, please.

You're using an extreme example but I was thinking of the morality behind things like people's having differing opinions on abortion or death penalty because it depends of history, personal/cultural/religious beliefs among many other factors.

But this is a slippery slope into politics and I cannot directly judge the opinion and customs of a foreign country because by what honour can I judge people with a different sociological and cultural background? How is mine more valid and objective than theirs about things like what food is the best or what music genre is good? This is what I'm referring to when it is about opinions.

PS: Also many disabled persons aren't noticed because not all disabilities are visible.


Back to subject: GoG allowing DRM free games isn't a good thing for preservation? Most other companies barely make their games available without their launcher (Ubisoft, Blizzard...) and even if they've made it better, Steam still requires login for most of their games.

 

[_oBSOLEte_]

Humanity and civilization began with the preservation of data. There's no debate about it, it's an atavistic behavior to transmit knowledge from generation to generation. That's a principle of life itself. Discussing here about the morality of copying software and piracy looks just like a concern troll.

GOG is as pragmatic a company as any major player in the gaming storefront scene: actively aligning with a fundamentally anti-corporate intiative, in the sense of being an initiative that demands some sort of restaint and regulation on corporate agency, is one that the marketing department is going to stay away from. It can tacitly provide support with a lower-case s, but rarely do storefronts like these provide capital letter Support regardless of how clear-purposed the initiative is. It simply has no reason to stick its head out like that, either because of the relationships it has cultivated or because it can see the writing on the wall about this movement's success and is simply not going to be the odd duck out.

In the eyes of storefronts, consumers are meant to consume, not have demands. GOG generally have a good ethos but they're a for-profit company that has found a niche, they're not going to feign any interest in pro-consumer mandates that might one day be expanded in a way that upsets their particular apple cart.

They expressed their interest about the initiative *themselves* in the first place. Only to back out in the end. Most likely the old guard got replaced and the relationships they cultivate now and that you talk about put them in a position where they're not able to fulfill the preservation mission they spend so much to advertise.

As a long time user of the platform I can be a pragmatic consumer and see now that their marketing is bullshit.

As for the "writing on the wall" of Stop Killing Games success, you might precise your thought a bit, because I don't know where you got that. 500k people already signed in would disagree.

I don't necessarily agree it's fair to generalize where the DRM-free executables originated. I have no idea which publishers/developers had game builds without DRM, stored away in their internal company archives.

However... there's something to be said about "preservation" when the version being sold, doesn't run on the game's original system environment.

GOG could provide DOS executables or instructions how to get them, albeit with the disclaimer they might not be able to offer technical support.

They're doing pretty much the opposite and replaced ISO links on abandonware sites with advertisement links.

I plan to play Phantasmagoria 2 next. Game released in 1996 on DOS and Win95. All the videos in the DOS version are downscaled from 16bit depth color to 256, and that downgrade is the only version distributed nowadays. I will create a thread about installing Win95 on RetroArch DOSBox-Pure, I already got a guide about running Win98 but the original installer wont work there.

 

[Strategist's icon Strategist Strategist]

They're doing pretty much the opposite and replaced ISO links on abandonware sites with advertisement links.

Ah, now I understand your objection to GOG. I don't know how to feel about that. On one hand they are providing a service in keeping the builds up to date to support the latest and greatest operating systems, but that means that they are keeping products out of the public domain.

 

[_oBSOLEte_]

Ah, now I understand your objection to GOG. I don't know how to feel about that. On one hand they are providing a service in keeping the builds up to date to support the latest and greatest operating systems, but that means that they are keeping products out of the public domain.

I don't know how involved they are in keeping DOSBox up to date. You talk about DOSBox staging? The version I use with the Retroarch core is a one guy only effort it seems.

I'm not even sure they really support anything else than Windows. I've used some of their .sh installers on linux but it was for indy games so I guess the devs themselves provided the build for native linux.

It's not guaranteed that today's windows installers will still work in twenty years. Specially with Microsoft's track record of forced updates, lack of retro-compatibility and platforms moving away from Win7 support, just like they will for Win11 at some point next... So that's not really helping preservation. Once the whole retro stuff gets out of fashion and there's no profit to make they're not engaged to maintain the builds up to date anyway.

 

[Ikagura Ikagura]

but that means that they are keeping products out of the public domain.

Abandonware =/= public domain though.

It just means that nobody has claimed the copyright of a product.

 

[_oBSOLEte_]

It's more complicated than that.

EU software laws authorize people to have a working backup of their purchased software anyway. And yet current IP holders DGAF about that.

 

[Strategist's icon Strategist Strategist]

I don't know how involved they are in keeping DOSBox up to date. You talk about DOSBox staging? The version I use with the Retroarch core is a one guy only effort it seems.

I'm not even sure they really support anything else than Windows. I've used some of their .sh installers on linux but it was for indy games so I guess the devs themselves provided the build for native linux.

It's not guaranteed that today's windows installers will still work in twenty years. Specially with Microsoft's track record of forced updates, lack of retro-compatibility and platforms moving away from Win7 support, just like they will for Win11 at some point next... So that's not really helping preservation. Once the whole retro stuff gets out of fashion and there's no profit to make they're not engaged to maintain the builds up to date anyway.

Yes, most old school PC games use unsupported versions of Direct X and they have to write custom wrappers to get them to work with Direct X 11. Plus getting the games to support the new OS quirks from Win 10/11.