Biased party compositions in games

It would be them
DQIIIGadaboutClass.png

They're Sage material on the making

And another one that I always use on the party. But always read bad things about him on the internet
Cait_Sith_Portrait.jpg

And also one of my main in KOF is Angel. She is hard to use but her design and personality makes it worth it
556c4a11db6ae.png
 
The game I played most recently where I picked sub-optimal party members was Samurai Shodown RPG (Shinsetsu Samurai Spirits Bushidō Retsuden).
My party consisted of Nakoruru, Cham Cham and Charlotte... purely because of 'aesthetic' reasons - I'd much rather look at animé chicks than animé dudes! ;)
 
You guys should try babysitting a deathclaw or two through the fallout tactcs compaign.
 
tl;dr complicated
Personally, I feel that there are different genres of games where different arguments can be made, from fighting games to RPG games. But I personally am fine with non-optimization being allowed while still having "optimized" choices due to the playstyle for said choices being different. I feel that Pokemon games are the best way to display this due to the disparity and contrast between the "casual" and "competitive" sides of the games, as both sides are very popular and well-known within gaming circles.


For example, in single player Pokemon, you can choose different Pokemon and still come out on top, as long as you strategize correctly using the best moves, and if you are a singular typing, you still cripple yourself as a non-optimized choice, making the game much harder than if you used multiple types. Despite this, you can still win, and this is not the recommended or implied to be recommended choice by the developers, as your rival counterparts who you fight throughout the game often have Pokemon with differing types. In other words, strategy is a key part of the game, and not making your choices on par with said strategies in game in terms of either moves or Pokemon may make things more difficult. If you are weak in one part of the strategy, such as with typings, then you need to improve your other parts of strategy such as with moves.


On the other hand, with The Pokemon metagame, things are very different, as there are different Pokemon in different tiers, and Pokemon themselves need to be optimized to survive and thrive within the different tiers. There are EVS and IVS, ensuring that every Pokemon is different and those stat values themselves are viewed as the bare minimum as to what needs to be optimized in order to play competitively. In addition, despite optimization, there are some Pokemon which are destined to remain in lower tiers no matter what you do, having the tier system of fighting games while also having other factors in preparation which are often ignored in the casual single-player system, such as EVS and IVS. If you apply these strategies to the single-player side however, then the game often becomes steamrolled or too easy.


Pokemon is a very well-known franchise, but it still manages to be popular on both fronts due to its disparity, so its likely that the average person would like to engage with mechanics that allow for enough adaptation to have a general playstyle, while not being uber-specialized in either needing optimization, nor being adaptable enough to have every encounter be easy for all playstyles. I feel like this question was answered with "archetypes" in even older tabletop games and wargames, such as classes in D&D, as they allow for multiple different roles with their own characteristics while still allowing for strategy to fit the situation be needed rather than being infinitely adaptable, while also having said roles be obvious enough (at least to those familiar with gaming conventions) that you can tell that a berserker and a monk might be counterparts just like a druid and a mage can be counterparts, being broadly "physical" and "magical" classes respectively.


RageBurner mentioned Monster Hunter, and it made me realize how good Monster Hunter is as a game, as every weapon, while not even being equal against every monster, has enough of a niche to be able to conquer every monster solo or work well together in a group. While some games may have some weapons be better than others, Capcom puts time into balancing each weapon to make choices feel fair for players and to allow them to match the playstyle, even if some may struggle more against different monsters. Monster Hunter also heavily requires the usage of items, allowing for simultaneously more customization on one end, while also giving the developers another avenue and more leeway to measure difficulty, such as with certain ranged weapons needing ammo, allowing for certain weapons or equipment within the same weapon class to need, want, or like certain items more, or simply allowing for all members of a hunting party to be valuable in item usage.


Megaten games are also pretty interesting in that department due to their fusing system, creating "party members" of a sort that are usually associated with a certain element or a task, such as consistently fusing personas or demons with electric skills to create an "electric" party member, while still transforming into different creatures with different broader strengths and weaknesses, such as how well they deal with a certain element. Demon customization is usually the main meat of the game, so non-fusable party members are usually just pretty good all around or in certain aspects to showcase their usefulness and to give you a good grasp on how to use them. Persona games have more examples of human party members, so I'll elaborate more about them.


The non-protagonist party members of modern Persona games, are often associated with one element while also having varying physical prowess, sometimes being good at physical attacks and having many physical skills as a result while still having elemental attacks they do poorly in, and sometimes being good at their element and being poor at physical attacks and lacking physical skills as a result. Most find a balance between the two extremes, but most playing the series choose to have the elemental skills be focused on for the "mage" party members in order to strike weaknesses. The non-customizability of the Persona party members gives a broad archetype which you can imitate with your fusable personas, such as the physical party member to use when you believe physical attacks will be valuable and the physical persona line you have due to thinking you need a dedicated physical user. The party members usually also have better stats and skills for the level compared to your fused personas, allowing them to stand out more.


This simeltaneously makes the non-protagonist party members useful to take along in nearly all cases, due to physical stats being balanced to potentially grant extra turns against boss type enemies if a critical hit occurs and be more effective against enemies with no weaknesses as a result, and elemental enemies granting extra turns if you hit them with their weakness, with the exclusive elemental affinity of different party members allowing all of them to at least be usable by playing into the "one more" gameplay system. as well as allowing both the companion party members to stand out with their specialization and the heroes to stand out with their adaptability, and makes non-protagonist party members function as a broader "archetype" to imitate when fusing personas. In addition, the party members which have poor elemental attacks but good physical attacks reward creating personas having good elemental capabilities consisting of the elements said party members lack, allowing you to apply knowledge of what the other party members are capable of, and allowing for you to showcase usage of the knowledge given to the player through the abilities of the other party members, and both imitating and adapting them with your own personas, such as with a healing persona fusion line created to adapt if more healing is needed and if the healer is gone, or a buffing persona line granting buffs and debuffs that are usually split across party members.




Personally, I am fine with and even like optimization, as I view it as part of the game as fun to play around as part of strategy, though I prefer games with infinite opportunities to respec, similar to the Final Fantasy games with job systems. My most favored type of game would be similar to Monster Hunter, with not all options being equally good in all situations, but being fairly balanced overall as well as standing out from one another. I usually use the first of most types of units in games due to them usually being the most plot relevant and getting them early making them stand out as a result, such as Caeda and Merric due to Caeda being able to recruit multiple characters or Merric being able to use Excalibur and being a good emergency mage respectively. Another example would be having Ryu, Nina, and Bleu within my party in Breath of Fire games, with the last party member being whoever else is important within the game, such as a fully fused Karn or Bow. I use fire type starters usually in Pokemon games due to that element alongside electricity being associated with "heroic main protagonist" characters, and I usually use main character type characters in fighting games, which usually end up being shotoclones. I use the charge blade in Monster Hunter due to its adaptability in combat as well as being able to become impact or elemental based, allowing me to tailor the weapon to the situation as equipment. I try to make my choices fit the character when optimizing, an example from FF5 being Bartz being a Mystic Knight, while Lenna becomes a Summoner.
 
Last edited:
I love the design for both the Medic and Monk in Etrian I and III, they are among my favorites across the series and the fact they are on a class that is always suggested to have on th party just makes both of them better.

02.jpg
 
Personally, I feel that there are different genres of games where different arguments can be made, from fighting games to RPG games. But I personally am fine with non-optimization being allowed while still having "optimized" choices due to the playstyle for said choices being different. I feel that Pokemon games are the best way to display this due to the disparity and contrast between the "casual" and "competitive" sides of the games, as both sides are very popular and well-known within gaming circles.


For example, in single player Pokemon, you can choose different Pokemon and still come out on top, as long as you strategize correctly using the best moves, and if you are a singular typing, you still cripple yourself as a non-optimized choice, making the game much harder than if you used multiple types. Despite this, you can still win, and this is not the recommended or implied to be recommended choice by the developers, as your rival counterparts who you fight throughout the game often have Pokemon with differing types. In other words, strategy is a key part of the game, and not making your choices on par with said strategies in game in terms of either moves or Pokemon may make things more difficult. If you are weak in one part of the strategy, such as with typings, then you need to improve your other parts of strategy such as with moves.


On the other hand, with The Pokemon metagame, things are very different, as there are different Pokemon in different tiers, and Pokemon themselves need to be optimized to survive and thrive within the different tiers. There are EVS and IVS, ensuring that every Pokemon is different and those stat values themselves are viewed as the bare minimum as to what needs to be optimized in order to play competitively. In addition, despite optimization, there are some Pokemon which are destined to remain in lower tiers no matter what you do, having the tier system of fighting games while also having other factors in preparation which are often ignored in the casual single-player system, such as EVS and IVS. If you apply these strategies to the single-player side however, then the game often becomes steamrolled or too easy.


Pokemon is a very well-known franchise, but it still manages to be popular on both fronts due to its disparity, so its likely that the average person would like to engage with mechanics that allow for enough adaptation to have a general playstyle, while not being uber-specialized in either needing optimization, nor being adaptable enough to have every encounter be easy for all playstyles. I feel like this question was answered with "archetypes" in even older tabletop games and wargames, such as classes in D&D, as they allow for multiple different roles with their own characteristics while still allowing for strategy to fit the situation be needed rather than being infinitely adaptable, while also having said roles be obvious enough (at least to those familiar with gaming conventions) that you can tell that a berserker and a monk might be counterparts just like a druid and a mage can be counterparts, being broadly "physical" and "magical" classes respectively.


RageBurner mentioned Monster Hunter, and it made me realize how good Monster Hunter is as a game, as every weapon, while not even being equal against every monster, has enough of a niche to be able to conquer every monster solo or work well together in a group. While some games may have some weapons be better than others, Capcom puts time into balancing each weapon to make choices feel fair for players and to allow them to match the playstyle, even if some may struggle more against different monsters. Monster Hunter also heavily requires the usage of items, allowing for simultaneously more customization on one end, while also giving the developers another avenue and more leeway to measure difficulty, such as with certain ranged weapons needing ammo, allowing for certain weapons or equipment within the same weapon class to need, want, or like certain items more, or simply allowing for all members of a hunting party to be valuable in item usage.


Megaten games are also pretty interesting in that department due to their fusing system, creating "party members" of a sort that are usually associated with a certain element or a task, such as consistently fusing personas or demons with electric skills to create an "electric" party member, while still transforming into different creatures with different broader strengths and weaknesses, such as how well they deal with a certain element. Demon customization is usually the main meat of the game, so non-fusable party members are usually just pretty good all around or in certain aspects to showcase their usefulness and to give you a good grasp on how to use them. Persona games have more examples of human party members, so I'll elaborate more about them.


The non-protagonist party members of modern Persona games, are often associated with one element while also having varying physical prowess, sometimes being good at physical attacks and having many physical skills as a result while still having elemental attacks they do poorly in, and sometimes being good at their element and being poor at physical attacks and lacking physical skills as a result. Most finda balance between the two extremes, but most playing the series choose to have the elemental skills be focused on for the "mage" party members in order to strike weaknesses. The non-customizability of the Persona party members gives a broad archetype which you can imitate with your fusable personas, such as the physical party member to use when you believe physical attacks will be valuable and the physical persona line you have due to thinking you need a dedicated physical user. The party members usually also have better stats and skills for the level compared to your fused personas, allowing them to stand out more.


This simeltaneously makes the non-protagonist party members useful to take along in nearly all cases, due to physical stats being balanced to potentially grant extra turns against boss type enemies if a critical hit occurs and be more effective against enemies with no weaknesses as a result, and elemental enemies granting extra turns if you hit them with their weakness, with the exclusive elemental affinity of different party members allowing all of them to at least be usable by playing into the "one more" gameplay system. as well as allowing both the companion party members to stand out with their specialization and the heroes to stand out with their adaptability, and makes non-protagonist party members function as a broader "archetype" to imitate when fusing personas. In addition, the party members which have poor elemental attacks but good physical attacks reward creating personas having good elemental capabilities consisting of the elements said party members lack, allowing you to apply knowledge of what the other party members are capable of, and allowing for you to showcase usage of the knowledge given to the player through the abilities of the other party members, and both imitating and adapting them with your own personas, such as with a healing persona fusion line created to adapt if more healing is needed and if the healer is gone, or a buffing persona line granting buffs and debuffs that are usually split across party members.




Personally, I am fine with and even like optimization, as I view it as part of the game as fun to play around as part of strategy, though I prefer games with infinite opportunities to respec, similar to the Final Fantasy games with job systems. My most favored type of game would be similar to Monster Hunter, with not all options being equally good in all situations, but being fairly balanced overall as well as standing out from one another. I usually use the first of most types of units in games due to them usually being the most plot relevant and getting them early making them stand out as a result, such as Caeda and Merric due to Caeda being able to recruit multiple characters or Merric being able to use Excalibur and being a good emergency mage respectively. Another example would be having Ryu, Nina, and Bleu within my party in Breath of Fire games, with the last party member being whoever else is important within the game, such as a fully fused Karn or Bow. I use fire type starters usually in Pokemon games due to that element alongside electricity being associated with "heroic main protagonist" characters, and I usually use main character type characters in fighting games, which usually end up being shotoclones. I use the charge blade in Monster Hunter due to its adaptability in combat as well as being able to become impact or elemental based, allowing me to tailor the weapon to the situation as equipment. I try to make my choices fit the character when optimizing, an example from FF5 being Bartz being a Mystic Knight, while Lenna becomes a Summoner.
Ah, amother excellent read! you put a lot of thought into this and offer an excellent perspective, Charge Blade enjoyer person!

Honestly I'm surprised at how much positive engagement my threads get, as I just put out whatever I was thinking at the time. Great Sword here!
 
Unless you are doing a Iron Man run on any game, party comp is not a big worry tbh. If the devs did a good job balancing the diferent play styles for a game, then playing the "sub optimal" way shouldent be frustating, it can make a game more replayable due to the unique party combinations at hand.
 
I don't know how familiar you are with Monster Hunter, but there are 14 weapons in all, and I adamantly opt to use only two, even if that would prove detrimental for efficiency, because those are the weapons I enjoy.
I tend to jump around a lot but I usually play Lance or Greatsword. I'm not very good at dodging so a solid guard is very nice. I've played pretty much everything except ranged weapons and IG a bit, though. With one exception (launch Alatreon in World) MonHun tends to be really good about making you feel like you can contribute, especially with the changes in Rise to how flying monsters behave and the reduction of the Rathalos World Tour. (They said that that happening in the Wilds beta was a bug and has been fixed so here's hoping...)

[Persona]
This is even better in more recent games that let you switch party members on the fly, allowing you to build each one towards their specialization without worrying about them being overspecialized. I really like the new Theurgy mechanic in Persona 3 Reload, which gives unique effects but also builds up in a unique way per character; it adds a lot of personality that Persona 3 base game was definitely lacking in a lot of ways.
 
I always used Garr in BoF3 because I thought he was so damn cool. He's slow as hell though. I actually think Momo can be pretty powerful if you give her attacks that cant miss like Shadowalk, although thats more of a late game thing.

Kongol in Legend of Dragoon. He is also really slow and not that good, but his introduction in the game as a boss always mede me want to use him as a kid.

Frog in Chrono Trigger. I hate to say it, but my guy really isn't the strongest. I think Chrono/Ayla/Robo is the strongest team personally. But Frog is Frog, c'mon!
 
Frog in Chrono Trigger. I hate to say it, but my guy really isn't the strongest. I think Chrono/Ayla/Robo is the strongest team personally. But Frog is Frog, c'mon!
Frog is awesome, legit CT red mage, love to use him.
 
I do the same, I take which ever characters that I personally enjoy more rather than what ever the meta might be at any given time. It's the same with any game really, I'm not saying that following the meta is inherently bad and in multiplayer scenarios I obviously don't want to gimp my group but if I'm given the choice I want to explore something naturally. Nothing is worse than solving a solved puzzle. Especially if it's an MMORPG style game with a world to explore.

I prefer the journey to the end of the road rather than speedrunning there to farm the content at the end.
 
I do the same, I take which ever characters that I personally enjoy more rather than what ever the meta might be at any given time. It's the same with any game really, I'm not saying that following the meta is inherently bad and in multiplayer scenarios I don't want to gimp my group but if I'm given the choice I want to explore something naturally. Nothing is worse than solving a solved puzzle. Especially if it's an MMORPG style game with a world to explore.

I prefer the journey to the end of the road rather than speedrunning there to farm the content at the end.
Same. I feel to really enjoy a multiplayer experience you need to find like minded indivduals. That's why I only play with people I know well.
 
When I played Suikoden I used Meg and Juppo because I liked the goofy people that attacked with yo-yo's. If you give me the choice between someone cool and someone goofy, I'm picking goofy 9 times out of 10.
 
I'm a big sucker for blue mage type characters in Final Fantasy so I always make sure to use Gau when I replay Final Fantasy 6 and Kimahri when I play Final Fantasy X. The former is a great addition to the team but does require me to add a decent chunk of playtime to just getting him setup to become a menace. The latter is probably the least useful character in the game since they made the baffling choice to make his blue mage style stolen abilities usable only as an Overdrive (FFX's limit break). As a result, he is just an ok melee attacker who is a jack of all trades master of none in that he can do everything, but only 2nd or 3rd best and in a game where you can switch party members mid-battle, so there is no opportunity cost to having those specialists take the turn instead of him.

He does get better towards the end of the game as you finally get him into Lulu and Rikku's sphere grid, but he never really surpasses or even matches the alternatives until end game where everyone plays the exact same anyway (where he is still outclassed because he lacks a multi-hit overdrive lol). I just love Kimahri's character and arc so much that combined with my love for blue mages I just have to give him a spot on my main roster even if it is a struggle in the last leg of the game.
 
Last edited:
Killer7: I like Con smith, so i always pick him
That's me but with Kevin, doing summersaults across the stage, also helps he's got a steady hand.

I love the design for both the Medic and Monk in Etrian I and III
Any party member that fights barehanded has a guaranteed spot on my team.

Tangentially related to this, anybody who played Live A Live knows one of the highlights of that game is choosing your successor during the lung-fu chapter. Now, out of the three choices the game gives you the least popular is by far Sammo Hakka (also known as Hong Hakka in the 2022 remake), the fat, dumb, unemployed loser that mostly acts as comic relief.
Sammo chibi.png

Even if he could be argueed to be the worst choice gameplay-wise, I almost always choose him mostly because I've been in a similar spot in the past. Also, in the 94 original he fights shirtless for some reason (he has a shirt in his overworld sprite), and it looks dumb, but also kinda cool simultaneously.
 
I just love Kimahri's character and arc so much that combined with my love for blue mages I just have to give him a spot on my main roster even if it is a struggle in the last leg of the game.
I use the expert grid since that's what I'm used to as a PAL player and one of my favorite things to do with him is take him into Rikku's part of the Grid early, since that gets you access to her abilities well before you get her, and since his weapons are pretty strong and tend to have Piercing, he's pretty solid all around. The real issue he has is that his blue magic being locked behind his Overdrive really hurts him, since so many bosses are immune to most of his interesting blue magic and by the end of the game, Mix is so much better than everything else.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Connect with us

Latest Threads

Bushido Blade 1997

Developed by Lightweight and published by Square for the PS1, one-on-one armed combat, refers to...
Read more

I finished Shin Megami Tensei 1 for the ps1, what now?

Does anyone on this forum have suggestions on which Megaten I should play?
Read more

Looking for anime recommendations

Send your best anime recommendations I should watch. (If it's mainstream like naruto or...
Read more

Favorite pizza toppings?

I'm curious what everyone likes?
Also secretly trying to get suggestions
🤭🤭🤭
Read more

Eye of the Beholder on Scumm

Someone has problems with eye of the beholder (DOS) running with scumm. When I change of stage...
Read more

Online statistics

Members online
95
Guests online
190
Total visitors
285

Forum statistics

Threads
3,370
Messages
62,047
Members
218,930
Latest member
Aichi21

Support us

Back
Top