Biased party compositions in games

RageBurner

The Struggler
gemgemgemgemgem
Joined
Dec 2, 2024
Messages
1,680
Reaction score
3,253
Points
2,727
Location
Midland
I was discussing this with a friend today and got curious: do you guys sometimes use or take suboptimal characters in games just to have the characters you prefer always present?

I'm guilty of this, as I was recalling that in Breath of Fire 3 I always take Momo, despite the fact she has terrible accuracy and almost never hits anything at all (hits hard when she does, though) because I like her design and personality.

What about you guys? any similar experiences to share?
1734405659702.png
 
Last edited:
Metal Slug games, I just love a girl with glasses (her names Fio I think), I don't know what else can I say
In Suikoden series,i tried to fit her whenever i get to recruit her because i liked her design:)View attachment 4917
Wow…her clothes is a bit loose don't you think
 
does anyone else swap in kimahri for enemies tidus and auron usually have advantage on in final fantasy x, just so he doesn't get left out? his jinx move (aka 'bad time') is actually pretty fun to use
I'm biased, I like Dragoons/Lancers or what-have-you. I also like Red Mages, so there.
 
I was discussing this with a friend today and got curious: do you guys sometimes use or take suboptimal characters in games just to have the characters you prefer always present?

I'm guilty of this, as I was recalling that in Breath of Fire 3 I always take Momo, despite the fact she has terrible accuracy and almost never hits anything at all (hits hard when she does, though) because I like her design and personality.

What about you guys? any similar experiences to share?View attachment 4916
💯 on this!!
 
Oh I love this, you're great at coming up with these threads.

Let's see,

Suikoden II, I was constantly bringing along Zamza, the Chisyu Star. Suikoden in general has a lot of straightforward wizards, staves and wands and tarot cards, so a mage using fire to enhance his weapon, the Iron Fist of Rage? He's coming along for the ride. He starts pretty good then gets quickly outclassed by stronger short range attackers, but I find a spot on the team.

Xenogears, everyone is shit compared to Citan and Fei, but I still wanted to make Chu-Chu a Chu-Champion once I noticed her stats scaled to gear form. (Ultimately, I had to use the gameshark to get enough money to make that happen, which kinda defeats the point, but still!)

7th Saga, I only ever play Wilme. It's been like thirty years, still taking that stupid alien with no gear, and nearly no useful magic. Do I have a flaming fist fetish?

King of Fighters, tiers change per game but I pick Shingo regardless, I want to see this stupid child succeed.

Super Robot Wars, they already encourage you to play your favorites, but I like seeing underdogs who never got a shot have their day. Justice for Yamcha, I guess. Stuff like letting a woman who isn't Haman Karn pilot something cool, like Fa Yuiry in the RX-78. The side characters tend to lack the better passives and unique attacks of the mains, but in SRW you can usually make up the difference with busted stats and equipment anyways.
 
There's some competing schools of thought on this topic, while I'll illustrate using a pretty well-known example: Fire Emblem 4 (Genealogy of the Holy War). FE4 is famously very easy (Thracia 776 was basically exclusively targeted at emblemiers who felt FE4 was far too easy), but part of the reason for this is that the second half of the game had to be winnable even with the quite terrible replacement units for if you failed to pair characters up or got them killed. However, between the common choice to reset a map if you lose a unit, and the wealth of knowledge we now have about relationships and hidden secrets, it's absolutely trivially to conduct a eugenics program and curbstomp the back half of the game (and this was true even when the game was new, since this is why Thracia was made to challenge emblemiers).

One argument is that if the game is well-made, you should be able to use any composition of characters (party members, Pokemon, cards in a deck, whatever) and still beat the game.
Another is that in that case, the game is devoid of challenge because it doesn't require you to make good decisions about your gameplay in order to win.
The counterpoint to that is that if a game offers you choices but only a portion of them are realistic as options, then there is only an illusion of choice, because the only reason to make a non-optimal choice is to hamstring yourself on purpose.
However, if you don't need to make optimal or even good choices to complete a game, then there's very little challenge involved, which will mean some people will find it boring. Difficulty settings are one way of dealing with this, and these tend to work best in games that have a mathematical foundation, where optimization becomes objective, and tend to work less well in games that want to rely on the player's mechanical skill with the controller, as those tend to equate difficulty with instant death. I won't write an essay about it here since this is already a big post but this is one of the main issues with Souls games; most of the difficulty relies on hiding information from the player and simply stat-checking you, which heavily diminishes the impact on mechanical skill in a casual playthrough - the game is predominantly about knowledge, and the game's artificial scarcity and decision to not communicate to the player effectively is designed to force the player to unknowingly make suboptimal choices about their playstyle, which snowballs the game's difficulty out of proportion. (This is also why Sekiro, which doesn't have character-building RPG elements, is so incredibly easy.)

Balancing these three things, or simply choosing not to, is a really important part of designing a game that allows the player to construct their own party, team, deck, weapon, and so on. Final Fantasy V does this fairly well, especially in remake versions which fix several bugs that killed certain classes, and by choosing to include new fights that are designed so that traditional overpowered strats don't work well on them (e.g. the new superbosses in the GBA version both have invisible dummy targets that soak up !Rapidfire attacks, forcing you to come up with a new strategy). However, this only works if there is a limited opportunity cost to changing strategies, which is why this works well in FF5 (where AP is abundant and equipment is readily-found) and works very poorly in Elden Ring (where you can only respec a limited number of times per playthrough and most of the information about equipment is hidden from you).
Speaking of FF5, something interesting about it is that while there is a canonical casual method of getting through the game (that being getting a Mime and doing Dual-Wield, !Spellblade, !Rapidfire), this method is much too slow for something like a speedrun, which often use significantly more of the game's repertoire in order to beat the game quickly and consistently - using Samurai for !GilToss, Chemist's !Mix ability to its full and gamebreaking extent, using Blue Magic along with some seemingly useless spells, using the poison flowers at Drake Mountain to set up a complete physical lockdown on Garula with a Knight, and so on.

I don't actually think there's a good answer to this concept because it's really going to vary by player as to what they want out of a game. For example, I don't enjoy the original X-COM because I'm not a huge fan of the amount of logistical overhead, but there are people who absolutely eat that up and despise the more streamlined newer games. Some games award the player for playing for a different metric than just completion, like Devil May Cry (the good ones) or Final Fantasy XVI: it's very trivial to beat those games by mashing the attack button, but the game gives you a large toolbox to play with and rewards you for doing so (with the Style Meter in DMC - which has gameplay benefits and manages the dynamic music in DMC5 - and score bonuses in FF16, which are used in several of its non-story modes). Therefore, the optimal choices for a given scenario can vary depending on your goals for the scenario, and either or both of those could be said to be correct.
Then you get into the ever-popular topic of challenge runs: "How to beat X with/out Y", for example. In these cases, much of the difficulty is 'unintended difficulty' because there is an assumption that you wouldn't do something like this and so the game isn't designed around it. ymfah's Elden Ring Without Talking is a good example; the game absolutely loses its shit if you don't talk to anyone and it requires a lot of screwing around, but this isn't something the game was ever designed for, so there is an argument to exclude this kind of thing from consideration. However, this has the potential to become a slippery slope: at what point do you stop excluding non-optimal choices about how you play your game from consideration?

tl;dr complicated
 
No.1 Priority = Cute girl party regardless of class or harem party if mc has to be used obligatorily.
If you can choose classes then I tend to chose pretty boring standard roles Tank+Mage+Healer+Red Mage Equivalent or an Mp Regenating Class if available.
 
I usually have a cute girl and a buff guy with the main character, but only when all the team have at least The same level.
 
as a man sometimes i have all-woman team... eiyuden chronical for example my team are one of these : Lian, Hakugin, Mio, Isha, Momo, Elektra, Sabine
 
There's some competing schools of thought on this topic, while I'll illustrate using a pretty well-known example: Fire Emblem 4 (Genealogy of the Holy War). FE4 is famously very easy (Thracia 776 was basically exclusively targeted at emblemiers who felt FE4 was far too easy), but part of the reason for this is that the second half of the game had to be winnable even with the quite terrible replacement units for if you failed to pair characters up or got them killed. However, between the common choice to reset a map if you lose a unit, and the wealth of knowledge we now have about relationships and hidden secrets, it's absolutely trivially to conduct a eugenics program and curbstomp the back half of the game (and this was true even when the game was new, since this is why Thracia was made to challenge emblemiers).

One argument is that if the game is well-made, you should be able to use any composition of characters (party members, Pokemon, cards in a deck, whatever) and still beat the game.
Another is that in that case, the game is devoid of challenge because it doesn't require you to make good decisions about your gameplay in order to win.
The counterpoint to that is that if a game offers you choices but only a portion of them are realistic as options, then there is only an illusion of choice, because the only reason to make a non-optimal choice is to hamstring yourself on purpose.
However, if you don't need to make optimal or even good choices to complete a game, then there's very little challenge involved, which will mean some people will find it boring. Difficulty settings are one way of dealing with this, and these tend to work best in games that have a mathematical foundation, where optimization becomes objective, and tend to work less well in games that want to rely on the player's mechanical skill with the controller, as those tend to equate difficulty with instant death. I won't write an essay about it here since this is already a big post but this is one of the main issues with Souls games; most of the difficulty relies on hiding information from the player and simply stat-checking you, which heavily diminishes the impact on mechanical skill in a casual playthrough - the game is predominantly about knowledge, and the game's artificial scarcity and decision to not communicate to the player effectively is designed to force the player to unknowingly make suboptimal choices about their playstyle, which snowballs the game's difficulty out of proportion. (This is also why Sekiro, which doesn't have character-building RPG elements, is so incredibly easy.)

Balancing these three things, or simply choosing not to, is a really important part of designing a game that allows the player to construct their own party, team, deck, weapon, and so on. Final Fantasy V does this fairly well, especially in remake versions which fix several bugs that killed certain classes, and by choosing to include new fights that are designed so that traditional overpowered strats don't work well on them (e.g. the new superbosses in the GBA version both have invisible dummy targets that soak up !Rapidfire attacks, forcing you to come up with a new strategy). However, this only works if there is a limited opportunity cost to changing strategies, which is why this works well in FF5 (where AP is abundant and equipment is readily-found) and works very poorly in Elden Ring (where you can only respec a limited number of times per playthrough and most of the information about equipment is hidden from you).
Speaking of FF5, something interesting about it is that while there is a canonical casual method of getting through the game (that being getting a Mime and doing Dual-Wield, !Spellblade, !Rapidfire), this method is much too slow for something like a speedrun, which often use significantly more of the game's repertoire in order to beat the game quickly and consistently - using Samurai for !GilToss, Chemist's !Mix ability to its full and gamebreaking extent, using Blue Magic along with some seemingly useless spells, using the poison flowers at Drake Mountain to set up a complete physical lockdown on Garula with a Knight, and so on.

I don't actually think there's a good answer to this concept because it's really going to vary by player as to what they want out of a game. For example, I don't enjoy the original X-COM because I'm not a huge fan of the amount of logistical overhead, but there are people who absolutely eat that up and despise the more streamlined newer games. Some games award the player for playing for a different metric than just completion, like Devil May Cry (the good ones) or Final Fantasy XVI: it's very trivial to beat those games by mashing the attack button, but the game gives you a large toolbox to play with and rewards you for doing so (with the Style Meter in DMC - which has gameplay benefits and manages the dynamic music in DMC5 - and score bonuses in FF16, which are used in several of its non-story modes). Therefore, the optimal choices for a given scenario can vary depending on your goals for the scenario, and either or both of those could be said to be correct.
Then you get into the ever-popular topic of challenge runs: "How to beat X with/out Y", for example. In these cases, much of the difficulty is 'unintended difficulty' because there is an assumption that you wouldn't do something like this and so the game isn't designed around it. ymfah's Elden Ring Without Talking is a good example; the game absolutely loses its shit if you don't talk to anyone and it requires a lot of screwing around, but this isn't something the game was ever designed for, so there is an argument to exclude this kind of thing from consideration. However, this has the potential to become a slippery slope: at what point do you stop excluding non-optimal choices about how you play your game from consideration?

tl;dr complicated
You wrote a real essay here! very much worth a read.
Like you said, much of it has to do with expectation and the player's personal objective regarding something in the game.

I personally abide by the school of thought that if something is too clearly an optimal choice for a solution, then balance is poor and bears revisioning, because it becomes an illusory choice if the objective is efficiency. That said, I do not play games on an efficiency basis if I feel this will limit my choices and my enjoyment.

I don't know how familiar you are with Monster Hunter, but there are 14 weapons in all, and I adamantly opt to use only two, even if that would prove detrimental for efficiency, because those are the weapons I enjoy.
 
Killer7: I like Con smith, so i always pick him.

Street Fighter III: Third Strike: Have a crush with Q, he's so weird and difficult to handle. <3

Persona 4: Very much attracted to Naoto, love smart girls.

Fire emblem Path of radiance: Since i saw Nephenee i included her in my army despite her awfully bad performance.

Persona 5: Can't hide my preference for the persona Matador. I couldn't stop laughing when i saw him for the first time in SMT III using the skill "Andalucia".


I know nobody said anything of using an specific ability, for example i use the Breaker Style with Goro Majima (Yakuza 0) simply because it's stupid and fun.
 
In SRW series I prefer the Gundams or other real robots with decent range. As oppose to the super robots ( Mazinger, Getter Robo etc.) whose got powerful but short ranged attacked.
 
Yeah i got more than a few, generally i will use the characters I like and try to make them work unless a specific strategy is called for, but a few notable inclusions are
-Fire emblem fates conquest, always use arthur and odin even though arthur cant hit anything to save his life (quite literally in many cases), and odin is the worst mage in the entire game statistically speaking (

-chrono cross, i always use pip even though statically speaking hes kinda mid because 1.) I like his gimmick of evolving, 2.) hes the only character to
, and 3.) he's adorable;
also



now as for notable DISINCLUSIONS

-fire emblem awakening: tharja, I hate her design and she abuses her daughter

-fire emblem fates: niles, despite the fact that hes one of two characters that can capture generics for the barracks, I genuinely despise every thing about his character

-fire emblem three houses & fire emblem warriors three hopes: ingrid, i just find her very boring and completely uninteresting as a character, and monica because she an annoying simp, even the character that she's simping for thinks its annoying
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Connect with us

Latest Threads

what is the meaning of life? (not 42)

it's a dumb fucking question but it prompts a lot of saucy debate

the boring answer i've...
Read more

Bushido Blade 1997

Developed by Lightweight and published by Square for the PS1, one-on-one armed combat, refers to...
Read more

I finished Shin Megami Tensei 1 for the ps1, what now?

Does anyone on this forum have suggestions on which Megaten I should play?
Read more

Looking for anime recommendations

Send your best anime recommendations I should watch. (If it's mainstream like naruto or...
Read more

Favorite pizza toppings?

I'm curious what everyone likes?
Also secretly trying to get suggestions
🤭🤭🤭
Read more

Online statistics

Members online
109
Guests online
203
Total visitors
312

Forum statistics

Threads
3,371
Messages
62,056
Members
218,949
Latest member
theAceEnigma

Support us

Back
Top