Beating the machine with pure soul

[RookerSalen]

Since armored core 1 if you fail a lot of missions and fall into debt, the game will put you in "Human Plus mode", which is basically hacks. The best radar, the capacity to fire heavy cannons without getting on one knee while using bipod legs, your sword will now shoot beams, etc. In lore, augmentation was a risky and unusual process, that's why you technically only accept it to clear your debt. If you survive you become an AC god, if you die well, too bad. In all honesty, I don't like human plus, it makes the game a complete joke by discarding a lot of the tools that it gives you. Now, when the Arena was introduced, and you manage to get to the high ranks you realize that the battles are unfair, and the opponent seems to have an overwhelming advantage over you. And they do, high rank arena is completely FILLED with human plus pilots, which makes the experience unfair.

And that's when the soul comes in.

Beating an augmented pilot without augmentations send the message that "It doesn't matter how much technology you put in your body, skill, hope and resilience will always beat you", FromSoftware is well known for making difficult games, but in the end, it's always the power of us, the players that ends up winning. Even in Armored Core 6 where all pilots are augmented, the "Core theory" reaffirms that to actually push an AC to the limit and to use all of their parts efficiently, the human factor is absolutely necessary, is when we, as humans, experience pure adrenaline and fear that we surpass what a computer can calculate.

Just a thought I had while playing, if you guys have experienced something similar please share it.

 

[RanmyakuIchi's iconRanmyakuIchi]

I suppose a real-life example of this could be learning to easily clear games with famously unfair cpu, such as Mortal Kombat 2/Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3, Art of Fighting 2, or the western version of Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo.

These games react to the players actions in the same frame a button is pressed and often just straight up break the rules of gameplay, but breaking down the AI and exploiting it's own patterns against it is deeply satisfying.

 

[Leifang]

I suppose a real-life example of this could be learning to easily clear games with famously unfair cpu, such as Mortal Kombat 2/Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3, Art of Fighting 2, or the western version of Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo.

These games react to the players actions in the same frame a button is pressed and often just straight up break the rules of gameplay, but breaking down the AI and exploiting it's own patterns against it is deeply satisfying.

True, but it also gives you bad habits because what works on players won't work on computer and vice-versa... Tekken isn't generally known for that, but it still has similar problems, most noticeable is ALWAYS escaping Ultimate Tackle starting with 3, ducking low strikes or throws on your input, before humanly possible, but often walking into mids.

You can defeat every computer opponent on PS2 version of Tekken 5 by pressing down+1, 2 as Heihachi, or holding down forward+left kick as Asuka. CPU never blocks those! Then you play versus and those moves are punishable, but tons of stuff you don't bother with against AI, players can't block as effectively... but I keep forgetting those moves because I am used to them not working and end up trapped same way human players in MK keep jumping into Kitana's fan combos.

In Tekken, down+forward attacks usually hit like overheads and they're the equivalent to MK's jump kicks for abusing computer (that loves ducking instead of neutral blocking highs). So spam mid kicks or down-forward left-right punch uppercut combo... Comp just walks into it... But human player will stop at some point.

 

[RageBurner]

The AI in NBA Jam cheats to very extreme levels (known and documented) and also simulants above Hard in Perfect Dark.

Racing games cheat rather egregiously with rubberbanding too.

 

[RanmyakuIchi's iconRanmyakuIchi]

True, but it also gives you bad habits because what works on players won't work on computer and vice-versa... Tekken isn't generally known for that, but it still has similar problems, most noticeable is ALWAYS escaping Ultimate Tackle starting with 3, ducking low strikes or throws on your input, before humanly possible, but often walking into mids.

You can defeat every computer opponent on PS2 version of Tekken 5 by pressing down+1, 2 as Heihachi, or holding down forward+left kick as Asuka. CPU never blocks those! Then you play versus and those moves are punishable, but tons of stuff you don't bother with against AI, players can't block as effectively... but I keep forgetting those moves because I am used to them not working and end up trapped same way human players in MK keep jumping into Kitana's fan combos.

In Tekken, down+forward attacks usually hit like overheads and they're the equivalent to MK's jump kicks for abusing computer (that loves ducking instead of neutral blocking highs). So spam mid kicks or down-forward left-right punch uppercut combo... Comp just walks into it... But human player will stop at some point.

Sure, but that's two different skill sets. Like MK2, where Baraka is a popular pick for 1ccing an arcade run despite being regarded as low tier and nonviable in competitive play. I agree that "learning" any fighting game through fighting the AI is just drilling in bad habits, but I'd argue an experienced player can switch their brain from one to another, so to speak.

 

[Leifang]

Sure, but that's two different skill sets. Like MK2, where Baraka is a popular pick for 1ccing an arcade run despite being regarded as low tier and nonviable in competitive play. I agree that "learning" any fighting game through fighting the AI is just drilling in bad habits, but I'd argue an experienced player can switch their brain from one to another, so to speak.

Oh sure, you absolutely can learn a lot fighting computer and switch. So I've seen a few videos on abusing AI in MK, it's THE most obvious game on unfair but abusable CPU, what's with Street Fighter 2? I know that Super Turbo and IIRC Anniversary have extreme difficulty in English version, so what do you do to beat the computer? Is there a guide or a write-up on what moves it gets dumb against?

 

[RanmyakuIchi's iconRanmyakuIchi]

Oh sure, you absolutely can learn a lot fighting computer and switch. So I've seen a few videos on abusing AI in MK, it's THE most obvious game on unfair but abusable CPU, what's with Street Fighter 2? I know that Super Turbo and IIRC Anniversary have extreme difficulty in English version, so what do you do to beat the computer? Is there a guide or a write-up on what moves it gets dumb against?

...I honestly wish I had an answer for you, I've been banging my head against the ST CPU for years! CPU Akuma in particular is a mountain I still haven't scaled.

The CPU cheats so hard, there's an old Youtube video for HD Remix of CPU Ryu using the Fireball Feint move (which recovers much faster to bait jump-ins) but throwing actual fireballs with it, locking the player down. I unfortunately can't seem to find it though.

 

[Leifang]

...I honestly wish I had an answer for you, I've been banging my head against the ST CPU for years! CPU Akuma in particular is a mountain I still haven't scaled.

The CPU cheats so hard, there's an old Youtube video for HD Remix of CPU Ryu using the Fireball Feint move (which recovers much faster to bait jump-ins) but throwing actual fireballs with it, locking the player down. I unfortunately can't seem to find it though.

I'll just switch to the Japanese region then lol. That makes difficulty less insane, right?

 

[RageBurner]

I'll just switch to the Japanese region then lol. That makes difficulty less insane, right?

Yes, though it depends on the build date, I believe. Look for the earliest date you can find. You could also apply the AI normalization patch.

 

[cjl8336]

The AI in NBA Jam cheats to very extreme levels (known and documented) and also simulants above Hard in Perfect Dark.

Racing games cheat rather egregiously with rubberbanding too.

It is impossible to beat the Bulls as the Pistons in that game

 

[mel]

An armored core post? I'm glad I didn't miss this.

Last raven on psp gave me this feeling. This specific port is notorious for having smaller lockboxes and limited controls. Some concessions were made with the ai to make certain paths easier for psp players, but it's still regarded as a harder version of what some consider to be fromsoft's hardest game. It should also be noted that without cheating human plus isn't available to the player in this entry, but most enemy pilots have access to it.

I've only done 3 of the easier endings (evangel, jack-o, and pulverizer 1), but they've still pushed me to my limit at a few points. My favorite moments were defeat evangel in jack-o and destroy ac sight hawk in pulverizer 1. I had to learn to play with 6 fingers at once. Jumping (1), shooting with both weapons (2), moving forward/backwards and looking left/right (1), and strafing left/right (2).

Going back to 3/silent line and playing with human plus after a last raven playthrough is a power trip.

 

[RookerSalen]

An armored core post? I'm glad I didn't miss this.

Last raven on psp gave me this feeling. This specific port is notorious for having smaller lockboxes and limited controls. Some concessions were made with the ai to make certain paths easier for psp players, but it's still regarded as a harder version of what some consider to be fromsoft's hardest game. It should also be noted that without cheating human plus isn't available to the player in this entry, but most enemy pilots have access to it.

I've only done 3 of the easier endings (evangel, jack-o, and pulverizer 1), but they've still pushed me to my limit at a few points. My favorite moments were defeat evangel in jack-o and destroy ac sight hawk in pulverizer 1. I had to learn to play with 6 fingers at once. Jumping (1), shooting with both weapons (2), moving forward/backwards and looking left/right (1), and strafing left/right (2).

Going back to 3/silent line and playing with human plus after a last raven playthrough is a power trip.

Hello fellow raven, and its true, playing with human plus after beating last raven or nexus feels so good. I replayed 2 and 3 while doing a cosplay of 9 ball with human plus.

 

[fake-kun]

Since armored core 1 if you fail a lot of missions and fall into debt, the game will put you in "Human Plus mode", which is basically hacks. The best radar, the capacity to fire heavy cannons without getting on one knee while using bipod legs, your sword will now shoot beams, etc. In lore, augmentation was a risky and unusual process, that's why you technically only accept it to clear your debt. If you survive you become an AC god, if you die well, too bad. In all honesty, I don't like human plus, it makes the game a complete joke by discarding a lot of the tools that it gives you. Now, when the Arena was introduced, and you manage to get to the high ranks you realize that the battles are unfair, and the opponent seems to have an overwhelming advantage over you. And they do, high rank arena is completely FILLED with human plus pilots, which makes the experience unfair.

And that's when the soul comes in.

Beating an augmented pilot without augmentations send the message that "It doesn't matter how much technology you put in your body, skill, hope and resilience will always beat you", FromSoftware is well known for making difficult games, but in the end, it's always the power of us, the players that ends up winning. Even in Armored Core 6 where all pilots are augmented, the "Core theory" reaffirms that to actually push an AC to the limit and to use all of their parts efficiently, the human factor is absolutely necessary, is when we, as humans, experience pure adrenaline and fear that we surpass what a computer can calculate.

Just a thought I had while playing, if you guys have experienced something similar please share it.

I wouldn't know anything about that. I'm a completely soulless being.