Based Hayao Miyazaki

[Prism_Red]

So the Venus de Milo/Aphrodite of Melos is not art according to you.

And sorry but I absolutely despise the term "artsy" because it's pompous and tries too hard to make artist feel like a privileged cast of people that the commoner cannot attain nor dream to be part of.

It depends of the sensibility of people but you don't need to make something "artsy" to make art and that word has a really vague definition.

Faux-deep things are not more artistic than other creations.

Maybe I should've worded it better, yes art doesn't need any explanation to exist, but if a form of art existed and we don't get why it is an art, why not try to educate ourselves?

We decide individually what makes something an art or not. Y'know the banana plastered on the wall thingie few years back? Maybe they considered it an art which warranted it's appearance on that showcase, but it don't mean a thing to me. For them, it's art, for me it's not, and that's completely fine.

And I don't know that statue is called Venus de Milo, I had to google just now, I interpret it's existence as a display of beauty, which makes that piece of marble an art, at least for me.

That's why I said an art ceased to be an art if it cannot convey an expression, and that expression can be anything you want it to be, it may be different to another person.
And if something existed and it doesn't express anything to you at first glance and you don't have any reference to explain what it is and/or the creator can't explain or the creator is not around, then it's not an art, at least to me.

Have you read about the "death of the author"?

I haven't, I very rarely read books, or any long wall of texts, my tiny reptile brain was not built for it.

 

[_oBSOLEte_]

The guy who storyboards the whole damn movie, creating the story and setting the foundations for the character design and general look is not the "true artist" somehow, but the in-betweeners are? What? Besides, Miyazaki came up in the industry from a low-paid animator position. Everyone in Japan is overworked by our Western standards, but then we also have to be the laziest people that have ever lived at this point, so IDK. It's not like I expect one director to change the work culture of his entire country.

My comment was not meant to be some kind of East vs West thing, really. Like many, I've worked full time during Covid, taking risks so that things could keep on spinning. I don't think people here are lazy, in fact I think most of the people I know here are overworked as well.

Maybe that's why I find it so stupid that my entertainment "apparently" requires the death and suffering of people. I cant help but let my mirror neurons suggest me it's a complete waste, an insult to life itself.

I think it's about time that fanboys around the world finally stop fetichizing and start having a bit more empathy for the authors of all the cultural products they consume. If the AI cancer can accelerate that, then so be it.

 

[Antilocal123]

“Jarvis, I need RGT Updoots, make post on AI!”

Anyway, based.

 

[Viviana Santos]

I like Miyazaki and his works (and also the works of other directors at Studio Ghibli), but what he said about Osamu Tezuka and Tolkien was incredibly cruel.

 

[Ikagura]

I like Miyazaki and his works (and also the works of other directors at Studio Ghibli), but what he said about Osamu Tezuka and Tolkien was incredibly cruel.

What did he say?

 

[Viviana Santos]

What did he say?

Miyazaki said that Tezuka's work fell into cheap pessimism, and that he did nothing good for the animation industry.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

Miyazaki said that Tezuka's work fell into cheap pessimism, and that he did nothing good for the animation industry.

I can't say I've watched a full run of a Tezuka anime or manga, so he may be right. Only seen clips of Astro Boy and Kimba the white lion.

 

[Viviana Santos]

He also hates Tolkien's work (especially The Lord of the Rings), and he has expressed his opinions about it (particularly the films).

“Those who don’t know that, yet say they love fantasy are idiots”: Hayao Miyazaki Absolutely Hates Lord of the Rings for a Reason That’ll Change How You See the Movies

Hayao Miyazaki's views on Lord of the Rings would leave fans devastated at the things that the auteur had to say about Tolkien's magnum opus.

fandomwire.com

Post automatically merged: Apr 19, 2025

I can't say I've watched a full run of a Tezuka anime or manga, so he may be right. Only seen clips of Astro Boy and Kimba the white lion.

You really should read Tezuka's works, he's simply a legend and one of the most important and influential mangaka in the industry (basically he created the manga industry since he's called the Godfather of manga).

 

[Ikagura]

To be fair the Mushi Prod animes are quite rough to look at nowadays.

That's why I prefer Tezuka's mangas or the more recent reinterpretations like Pluto or the 2000's Black Jack and Astro Boy animes. Dororo is also good.

As for Tolkien I could understand the criticism about some of the more Manichean "good vs evil" trope it had in the story but this is a bit too simplifying.

 

[Viviana Santos]

To be fair the Mushi Prod animes are quite rough to look at nowadays.

That's why I prefer Tezuka's mangas or the more recent reinterpretations like Pluto or the 2000's Black Jack and Astro Boy animes. Dororo is also good.

As for Tolkien I could understand the criticism about some of the more Manichean "good vs evil" trope it had in the story but this is a bit too simplifying.

I honestly think it's pretty shitty that when Tezuka died in 1989, unlike other artists who paid tribute to Tezuka and his legacy and impact on the industry, Miyazaki simply decided to criticize him and his work only a few days after he died, which I honestly find incredibly cruel in my opinion.

Post automatically merged: Apr 19, 2025

He also said that Tezuka ruined the anime industry and that he is to blame for the fact that the industry in general mistreats its animators and why anime has limited and low budget animation.

---

Most startling are Miyazaki’s negative remarks about Osamu Tezuka which were published in Comic Box shortly after Tezuka’s death in 1989. Anticipating that the magazine would be full of praise for the “father of manga” and “godfather of anime”, Miyazaki voices his dissatisfaction with many of Tezuka’s animated works. While Miyazaki knows that Tezuka’s style – particularly his manga from the period 1945-1955 – influenced him greatly when he was a young artist starting out, he was not a fan of Tezuka’s animation. He found it too pessimistic and even expresses having felt disgust when he watched films like Mermaid (1964), The Drop (1965), Tales of a Street Corner (1962), Pictures at an Exhibition (1966), and Cleopatra (1970). Miyazaki even bemoans the fact that Astro Boy set the bar so very low in terms of cost – meaning that anime productions ever since have suffered from low budgets. He believes that TV anime was destined to start in Japan with or without Tezuka: “Without Tezuka, the industry might have started two or three years later. And then I could have relaxed a bit and spent a little longer working in the field of feature animation, using more traditional techniques. But that’s all irrelevant now” (196).

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

He also hates Tolkien's work (especially The Lord of the Rings), and he has expressed his opinions about it (particularly the films).

I understand where Miyazaki is coming from. The pure evil vs pure good view of the world simply doesn't align with the eastern/japanese point of view of ying/yang balance between opposing factions. I've never liked how the Orcs were a subhuman race only capable of hate. It was an outdated, myopic view of races based on racial elitism. I respect Tolkien's work, but I don't find it as great as many do. Incredibly influential, for sure.

You really should read Tezuka's works, he's simply a legend and one of the most important and influential mangaka in the industry (basically he created the manga industry since he's called the Godfather of manga).

Yeah, I need to watch that someday. I haven't checked out a lot of pre 90's anime.

 

[Viviana Santos]

I honestly think it's pretty shitty that when Tezuka died in 1989, unlike other artists who paid tribute to Tezuka and his legacy and impact on the industry, Miyazaki simply decided to criticize him and his work only a few days after he died, which I honestly find incredibly cruel in my opinion.

Post automatically merged: Apr 19, 2025

He also said that Tezuka ruined the anime industry and that he is to blame for the fact that the industry in general mistreats its animators and why anime has limited and low budget animation.

---

Miyazaki’s negative remarks about Osamu Tezuka which were published in Comic Box shortly after Tezuka’s death in 1989. Anticipating that the magazine would be full of praise for the “father of manga” and “godfather of anime”, Miyazaki voices his dissatisfaction with many of Tezuka’s animated works. While Miyazaki knows that Tezuka’s style – particularly his manga from the period 1945-1955 – influenced him greatly when he was a young artist starting out, he was not a fan of Tezuka’s animation. He found it too pessimistic and even expresses having felt disgust when he watched films like Mermaid (1964), The Drop (1965), Tales of a Street Corner (1962), Pictures at an Exhibition (1966), and Cleopatra (1970). Miyazaki even bemoans the fact that Astro Boy set the bar so very low in terms of cost – meaning that anime productions ever since have suffered from low budgets. He believes that TV anime was destined to start in Japan with or without Tezuka: “Without Tezuka, the industry might have started two or three years later. And then I could have relaxed a bit and spent a little longer working in the field of feature animation, using more traditional techniques. But that’s all irrelevant now” (196).

https://www.nishikata-eiga.com/2011/05/hayao-miyazakis-taste-in-animation.html

 

[diapered]

Why is everyone in this thread writing fanfiction about the people doing the AI presentation? They don't work for Ghibli, and they didn't develop this at Miyazaki's request. It says the name of the guy and "DWANGO, Japanese telecommunications and media company" right on the screen. They're a separate company doing a presentation for Ghibli. Companies shop products and technologies around to other companies all the time. I swear 80% of this forum doesn't read or watch anything they comment on.

It also doesn't matter that some guy's feelings are hurt if what he's doing is wrong, which Miyazaki strongly believes. That man will get over it. "This isn't for us" isn't Miyazaki's message, his message is that this is a mistake and a destructive path to take. And he's right about otaku, their lack of life experience is killing the medium as they just copy from copies until there's nothing left. It's not just women that aren't well represented, the guys are a bunch of goofy archetypes too 90% of the time.

Just because it says that doesn't mean it couldn't have been outsourced or contracted for... You would have had to know that and the youtube comments don't talk about that, in my defense. I wasn't writing fan fiction, I genuinely was just curious and didn't know

But yea, thanks for the context, I do now have less sympathy, if it is a completely cold pitch. Did they think ghibli would look at that and be blown away? It just begs more questions.

That man will get over it.

Even if you disagree with someone and they are wrong, you don't need to unnecessarily drag out the torture... I got the feeling even before miyazaki spoke, they realized the presentation was going bad. But of course, he completely has the right to speak as he wants, and it definitely drove home his point; I just don't like that behavior. Like I said, I've been on the receiving end of managers launching into some personal anecdote just to make me feel worse. I still think he could have just ended at, "you want to make creepy stuff go ahead, it is removed of all humanity, and it looks like shit!" And just stopped there.

a destructive path to take

I think that is a little dramatic. I don't have strong feelings on ai, but I probably should because it is going to take my job long before it starts threatening artists/musicians: I do know you can use chat gpt to write codes to calculate science problems on college exams nowadays . AI art is still pretty obviously ai to me, so I don't see it as a huge problem/threat which I gather is the feeling of many here? And if it helps automate some production for artists that are already overworked, I would think that is a good thing? But I am not an artist, so I don't know.

And he's right about otaku

No one is going to disagree with that. I was just curious about the context of the ai comments.

tl;dr Yes Miyazaki is based and I have nothing but love for the man, the legend! I just thought he was a little too mean and didn't understand the context >_>

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

https://www.nishikata-eiga.com/2011/05/hayao-miyazakis-taste-in-animation.html

Well, at least it is consistent with the "no fucks given" image I have of Miyazaki. He won't kiss someone's ass even after they die if he feels they set the anime industry back. He also won't accept an award from a country he feels is involved in warmongering. I think it is somewhat respectable that he holds his principles so strongly.

 

[Viviana Santos]

These two videos go deeper into Tezuka's influence on the Anime and Manga industry:

Post automatically merged: Apr 19, 2025

Well, at least it is consistent with the "no fucks given" image I have of Miyazaki. He won't kiss someone's ass even after they die if he feels they set the anime industry back. He also won't accept an award from a country he feels is involved in warmongering. I think it is somewhat respectable that he holds his principles so strongly.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

These two videos go deeper into Tezuka's influence on the Anime and Manga industry:

I will say it is weird he is criticizing Tezuka for pessimism when the most pessimistic Anime I've ever watched came from Studio Ghibli. (Grave of the Fireflies). I think sad/pessimistic animes have a place in the world and deserve to be made. I think I've watched Tezuka's Little Mermaid and I liked it more than Disney's version. It is incredibly depressing but it is more accurate to Hans Christian's tale.

 

[UnDubious]

https://www.nishikata-eiga.com/2011/05/hayao-miyazakis-taste-in-animation.html

Interesting article. The book would probably be a good read to get more context. Personally, I think of Tezuka more in terms of manga than animation, even though he was instrumental to both industries, and I suspect his greatest work is probably in manga, since he didn't have to cut corners as he had to do with tv anime. Out of his manga I've read, I remember liking Dororo and Buddah the most.
I probably don't have enough context to understand what Miyazaki means exactly about Tezuka's "cheap pessimism". I can respect both life-affirming and cynical approaches as both ring true at different times. It's also not like I have to agree with an artist to respect their work. A conversation between the two on that topic would have been interesting.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

Interesting article. The book would probably be a good read to get more context. Personally, I think of Tezuka more in terms of manga than animation, even though he was instrumental to both industries, and I suspect his greatest work is probably in manga, since he didn't have to cut corners as he had to do with tv anime. Out of his manga I've read, I remember liking Dororo and Buddah the most.
I probably don't have enough context to understand what Miyazaki means exactly about Tezuka's "cheap pessimism". I can respect both life-affirming and cynical approaches as both ring true at different times. It's also not like I have to agree with an artist to respect their work. A conversation between the two on that topic would have been interesting.

I don't think Tezuka's work was pessimistic. Depressing, sure. But I can't say it was more pessimistic than Grave of the Fireflies, from what I've seen. Ghibli is capable of going in a depressing direction as well. That is one of the aspects that I respect from anime, that they are willing to go into more darker/depressing subjects when compared to western, always happy ending stuff for kids.

I also think the pessimism ingrained in anime from that era is an authentic expression of the cultural experience of Japan, in my opinion as an outsider. The post war experience of japan was humbling and depressing and that must've affected Tezuka's outlook on things. All that stuff permeates into an artist's work.

 

[UnDubious]

I don't think Tezuka's work was pessimistic. Depressing, sure. But I can't say it was more pessimistic than Grave of the Fireflies, from what I've seen. Ghibli is capable of going in a depressing direction as well. That is one of the aspects that I respect from anime, that they are willing to go into more darker/depressing subjects when compared to western, always happy ending stuff for kids.

Grave of the Fireflies was Takahata, though. I'm sure he had plenty of disagreements with Takahata too. I agree with you though, I probably lean into the downbeat stuff a little more overall if anything. However I'm not sure if he means exactly dark/depressing when he talks of "cheap pessimism".

 

[Viviana Santos]

Well, at least it is consistent with the "no fucks given" image I have of Miyazaki. He won't kiss someone's ass even after they die if he feels they set the anime industry back. He also won't accept an award from a country he feels is involved in warmongering. I think it is somewhat respectable that he holds his principles so strongly.

Blaming Tezuka for what happens today is ridiculous. When Tezuka started back in the 50s~60s everyone was working day in and day out for minimum wage in Japan. Then they went through an economic boom in the 1980s followed by a bubble burst after which Japanese exports to the US fell to a record low and the whole chain of production took a massive blow and this is on top of the advancements on computer animation since the mid 90s that has made deadlines even shorter for significally higher quality so its not the same business it once was.

---

But at the same time even though he revolutionized and created the anime industry, Tezuka really did unintentionally ruin it for everyone else in the long run, so I understand Miyazaki even though I think him criticizing Tezuka after he passed away in 1989 is awfully cruel.

 

[Strategist's iconStrategist]

Blaming Tezuka for what happens today is ridiculous. When Tezuka started back in the 50s~60s everyone was working day in and day out for minimum wage in Japan. Then they went through an economic boom in the 1980s followed by a bubble burst after which Japanese exports to the US fell to a record low and the whole chain of production took a massive blow and this is on top of the advancements on computer animation since the mid 90s that has made deadlines even shorter for significally higher quality so its not the same business it once was.

---

But at the same time even though he revolutionized and created the anime industry, Tezuka really did unintentionally ruin it for everyone else in the long run, so I understand Miyazaki even though I think him criticizing Tezuka after he passed away in 1989 is awfully cruel.

Japan is not a "normal" place, at least from a western point of view. They are very honor driven and follow their elders to a fault. If the legend of the industry sets a precedent that is acceptable, it screws over the younger generation. I imagine Miyazaki had to work poverty wages for a while until he was famous enough to open his own studio and set his own rules. He probably resented Tezuka for not fighting more for his worker's wages.

 

[Viviana Santos]

Japan is not a "normal" place, at least from a western point of view. They are very honor driven and follow their elders to a fault. If the legend of the industry sets a precedent that is acceptable, it screws over the younger generation. I imagine Miyazaki had to work poverty wages for a while until he was famous enough to open his own studio and set his own rules. He probably resented Tezuka for not fighting more for his worker's wages.

I understand.

 

[X y b e r - S k u ll]

The anime you like is a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of the things Miyazaki and his peers (Tomino, etc.) from the early anime days created throughout their careers.

To be completely fair; this isn't exclusive to just anime and manga, this type of phenomenon is present in pretty much all forms of entertainment. Take films for example; everyone loves A24 and the films they release, but when I look at most of them, all I see is ideas that were done by directors in the 70's. I think this is all indicative of the state of world and how mundane everything is now. Everyone's pretty much living the same lives now so there's very few genuinely interesting people with things to say anymore.

 

[Viviana Santos]

@Strategist Damn, I didn't expect you to react to my posts just now.

But at the same time, thank you.

 

[UnDubious]

To be completely fair; this isn't exclusive to just anime and manga, this type of phenomenon is present in pretty much all forms of entertainment. Take films for example; everyone loves A24 and the films they release, but when I look at most of them, all I see is ideas that were done by directors in the 70's. I think this is all indicative of the state of world and how mundane everything is now. Everyone's pretty much living the same lives now so there's very few genuinely interesting people with things to say anymore.

Right, but when you actually observe people and write characters based on those observations, you can greatly enrich the stories even if the basic premise has been done before. The specific way in which you develop an idea is at least as important as the idea itself (probably more so), and if you create interesting characters their actions will naturally lead to an interesting take on the idea.