Video games and difficulty

[Ikagura]

Is being hard what made many games good? Is difficulty a sign of quality? Are easier games worse?

Or is it a relic from another era? Is this just a cheap way to make short games longer? Are harder games more frustrating therefore less enjoyable?

Share your thoughts about difficulty/challenge and what you prefer in games.

 

[RetroLuvr]

I do enjoy challenging games however this doesn't mean difficulty cannot be criticized. I see too many people say shit like 'skill issue' and 'git gud' when someone complains about a game being too hard. If complaining that a game is too easy is valid criticism then the opposite should be true. Usually I just pick normal whenever I'm given a difficulty selection as thats what the devs usually intend the game to be played. Sometimes its fun to play an easy game, sit back, and turn my brain off

 

[Ikagura]

I do enjoy challenging games however this doesn't mean difficulty cannot be criticised. I see too many people say shit like 'skill issue' and 'git gud' when someone complains about a game being too hard. If complaining that a game is too easy is valid criticism then the opposite should be true. Usually I just pick normal whenever I'm given a difficulty selection as that's what the devs usually intend the game to be played. Sometimes its fun to play an easy game, sit back, and turn my brain off

Honestly I think that Dark Souls ruined the perception of what makes a game difficult and people start having that pseudo-elitist view on games and pretends that every devs are perfect so that if a boss is too hard it must be the player's fault and never the game design's nor patterns'.

I mean it's somehow still accepted today to criticise a game's length (despite that 1h = 1 buck is not a good way to calculate the price of a game and that genres have varying content and length so that for example platformers are less long than RPGs) while criticising difficulty is not.

And yeah, it's also almost always believed when someone says that a game is too easy (which may depend of the player) while someone saying the contrary would rarely get trusted...

 

[Yousef]

Is being hard what made many games good? Is difficulty a sign of quality? Are easier games worse?

Or is it a relic from another era? Is this just a cheap way to make short games longer? Are harder games more frustrating therefore less enjoyable?

Share your thoughts about difficulty/challenge and what you prefer in games.

Hypocritical post incoming: as someone who has dark souls as their favorite, I could not stand the idea of “harder = good”. My least favorite souls entries are the ones that lean the most into difficultly like bloodborne. I only really like the main trilogy, and even then I don’t like DS3 as much as DS1 (DS2 is weird, it carries over a lot of great DS1 stuff, but it does not feel intentional at all, and can only be understood if you play it). I sincerely believe DS1 was not made with the idea of being difficult. Mysterious and enigmatic? Absolutely, but not necessarily “hard”, maybe some parts are intended to be challenging, but 9 times of ten it’s almost always supposed to be a “puzzle” or a DPS check. Or just a test of how much you explored the world.

I never seek difficulty in games. I cannot get into DMC for that reason although I plan to give it a second chance.

 

[Pandaprewmaster325]

Yes , just Yes a game and what it presents in the gameplay is really just a problem and it hands to you the tools to solve the problem if you fail to solve the problem then you are using the tools wrong or cant recgonize the pattern.

For example in FF games there is this reacurring enemy known as admontoise a turtle that has high armor , so when you attack it with normal weapons , the game is presnting you a problem that is an enemy with high resistence to melee attacks but Isnt so durable against spells , cold based spells are its weakness the game is telling you melee attack doesnt works through number of damage points so here you either understand that you need to find another way to kill this monster killing it with magic making it easy to deal with or you can make it hard on yourself and smash your head against a wall trying to kill it through melee , this here is an example of how game diffculty is done through enemy design which makes the player use the tools they have to deal with this diffcult problem a good example of being a dumbass and making it hard for yourself or taking a step back and think how to find a new solution.

Now the game should get harder as time goes on , because you get better over time and more used to gameplay this is seen in diablo 2 or WarCraft 3 where the game gives you easy to deal with enemies and you learn how to act through these simple tests using this as a foundation the game tunes diffculty up now you face more enemies and stronger ones you learn how build a base in human chapter 2 and you learn how to defend it then later on you have to defend and manage your economy in chapter 5 the game expect you to have learned how to do these things before and make wise decsions of course your problem solving gets better.

These are examples of systamatic diffculty , that punish mistakes a little hard.

Other games punish mistakes very harshly like RE games where progress is saved by type writers that are spread around the place , along the path of each type writer you face enough enemies to kill you and drain you down , saving kinda of big deal when no auto save is present a death means not only you got a nasty animation of you dying in a unpleasant way but it throws all that progress in trash.

A game should be diffcult not too easy that it makes everything a walk in the park and not too hard that it makes every fight or task a hustle , bosses in RPGs should be a diffculty spike for example this makes the boss have more meaning compared to normal enemies.

Punish mistakes harshly so players learn well , thats something i would like each game dev to do , im always in for a challenge and always play on hardest diffculty even if first time playing this makes the game more memeroable and more fun.

 

[destinyduelist]

Harder never equals good. I played through Shinobi recently, the final boss fight is borderline abysmal game design. It's not hard because it's clever difficulty, it's hard because it's design is one of the worst I've seen in a videogame and it's just bullshit.
This is why difficulty options exist in videogames, I usually just play through games on normal unless I'm some kind of die-hard fan and replay the game on hard (Or if I'm playing Yakuza 0, that game is so easy on the hardest difficulty it's kind of stupid to even offer any difficulty options at that point)
A sign of quality for a game is game design, the Souls series is notorious for being difficult but it's not one of those bullshit game design things, it takes patience and skill and mastery to be good at those games... Mostly... Some of them are pretty bad game design, and some are kind of easier than the others, but you get the point. Same with old-school Monster Hunter (besides some of the jank hitboxes).
It's okay to like a challenge, but to include the difficulty as a plus in general is never a good idea. I think people need to realise the harder your game is the lower the chances of people liking said game. And this isn't about journalists who want to breeze through games easily, this is about catching a broader audience and focusing on what actually matters in a game: art, music, game design (enemies, bosses, stages) and of course gameplay.
Lots of amazing games that are really easy to beat exist too.

 

[Yousef]

Thinking Harder never equals good.

Ye

I played through Shinobi recently, the final boss fight is borderline abysmal game design. It's not hard because it's clever difficulty, it's hard because it's design is one of the worst I've seen in a videogame and it's just bullshit.

Yes. A friend who always seeks challenge in games echoes your very sentiment about this game.

This is why difficulty options exist in videogames, I usually just play through games on normal unless I'm some kind of die-hard fan and replay the game on hard (Or if I'm playing Yakuza 0, that game is so easy on the hardest difficulty it's kind of stupid to even offer any difficulty options at that point)

Ahhh well said. Difficulty options in Yakuza have always been poorly designed.

A sign of quality for a game is game design, the Souls series is notorious for being difficult but it's not one of those bullshit game design things, it takes patience and skill and mastery to be good at those games... Mostly... Some of them are pretty bad game design,

Bloodborne sitting quietly in a corner.

and some are kind of easier than the others, but you get the point. Same with old-school Monster Hunter (besides some of the jank hitboxes).

Jank hitboxes? Are you sure you’re not talking about dark souls again?

It's okay to like a challenge, but to include the difficulty as a plus in general is never a good idea. I think people need to realise the harder your game is the lower the chances of people liking said game. And this isn't about journalists who want to breeze through games easily, this is about catching a broader audience and focusing on what actually matters in a game: art, music, game design (enemies, bosses, stages) and of course gameplay.
Lots of amazing games that are really easy to beat exist too.

Off topic but I strongly advise others to play momodora if they want difficulty done right.

 

[destinyduelist]

Jank hitboxes? Are you sure you’re not talking about dark souls again?

There's a reason I compare MHFU and other older titles to DS when a friend who's never played MH but has played DS wants to get into them haha

 

[Kamako]

Some games are made to be hard, and I'm glad there's some titles out that cater to gamers looking for that kind of experience.

No matter what challenge you throw at players, eventually there'll be someone who beats it with a fishing rod remote, or blindfolded, or both.

Also, I like games where I can feel myself getting better over time where they throw bosses or fights in which require the player to demonstrate a solid understanding of the mechanics.

 

[Jeanfranc]

Honestly I think that Dark Souls ruined the perception of what makes a game difficult

People only pretend that Dark Souls is difficult, it's really not.

Is being hard what made many games good? Is difficulty a sign of quality? Are easier games worse?

Or is it a relic from another era? Is this just a cheap way to make short games longer? Are harder games more frustrating therefore less enjoyable?

Share your thoughts about difficulty/challenge and what you prefer in games.

In any action game I want to be challenged. I want my triumph over the game to feel "earned", If I can just beat the game with my brain turned off that's a major downside for me.

 

[fake-kun]

People only pretend that Dark Souls is difficult, it's really not.

In any action game I want to be challenged. I want my triumph over the game to feel "earned", If I can just beat the game with my brain turned off that's a major downside for me.

Sounds like you won't like Kirby games, then. /j

 

[Jeanfranc]

Sounds like you won't like Kirby games, then. /j

I've played every single Kirby game and regularly replay Super Star. Kirby's special so he gets a pass.

 

[Graw]

Hypocritical post incoming: as someone who has dark souls as their favorite, I could not stand the idea of “harder = good”. My least favorite souls entries are the ones that lean the most into difficultly like bloodborne. I only really like the main trilogy, and even then I don’t like DS3 as much as DS1 (DS2 is weird, it carries over a lot of great DS1 stuff, but it does not feel intentional at all, and can only be understood if you play it). I sincerely believe DS1 was not made with the idea of being difficult. Mysterious and enigmatic? Absolutely, but not necessarily “hard”, maybe some parts are intended to be challenging, but 9 times of ten it’s almost always supposed to be a “puzzle” or a DPS check. Or just a test of how much you explored the world.

I never seek difficulty in games. I cannot get into DMC for that reason although I plan to give it a second chance.

I never understood why Dark Souls was considered all that hard anyway. There's basically no punishment for dying. Losing your souls isn't really that bad unless you're hoarding them for some reason. Most bosses and difficult areas have bonfires relatively close to them. Yeah sure you might have to repeat a section or a boss a few times. But eventually with persistence you can brute force your way through most of the stuff in Dark Souls.

 

[Noon]

ALL games are rigged to be beaten by the player.

I kind of find that, in JRPGs anyways, that normal difficulty is the most complex because
It lets the most amount of setups in. When stats are high or openings are small it’s not harder it’s just narrowing down how many answers there are, and for me that stops being playing a game like a musical instrument and starts feeling like I’m just getting a one answer thing over with.

And some stuff is kind of phony I find, like in an action game if you can dodge an attack 10 times you can dodge it 100 times, and if an attack takes half your health bar then the game has to be designed that you can heal at that moment or beat the enemy without getting hit, once you learn how to do that it’s the same as being on very easy.

I forgot to there’s a huge difference between high difficulty and high punishment.

 

[Azazelivae]

Personally it's dependent from Game to Game basis for me.

Though in regards of Difficulty, i wish more Game Dev implemented a new Difficulty Option called "Game Journo" where you get everything from the start Bonus if they change the story somewhat too if there is a Story, it'll be good as some sort of Debug or Sandbox mode, and also to shut up Game Journo with their Antics.

Looking at you DEAN TAKAHASHI.

 

[Yousef]

I've played every single Kirby game and regularly replay Super Star. Kirby's special so he gets a pass.

View attachment 52233

Holy shit dude, she’s my favorite. Kirby 64 is my favorite game. Such a great cast.

 

[AncientBehemoth]

No.
No.
No.

No idea, I only know that first it was difficult for penny grabbing and then for short time play length.
Cheap? It was a creative decision imo.
Yes.

As i'm growing old I dislike difficult games more and more. Generations changes as well as our capabilities. That angers me too. Mortality sucks.

 

[longestseason]

For me it's more about fairness than the difficulty itself. If the player gets frustrated because they feel the game isn't being fair, then that's bad game design in my opinion.

Depending on the type, genre and the target audience of the game, being challenging can be very important. It's a matter of finding the balance between being challenging while maintaining the fairness at the same time.

 

[Ligeia]

Game difficulty is a product of the time. I mean back in the day, 99% of gamers were children or teenagers with plenty of time to make countless attempts to beat a game. And in the 80's/90's most kids only got one or two new games a year (not counting rentals as that wasn't a thing for me back then), so you better had picked a game you were not gonna beat in an afternoon.

Nowadays you can literally hoard thousands of games and many gamers are adults with much less free time. Personally I also tend to get less patient in general as I grow older, so I'm not very fond of hard games anymore. Looking back I don't even know how I could have to patience to do things like 100% completing Blast Corps several times, heck even getting all 120 stars in Super Mario 64 seems like an insurmountable chore now

 

[_oBSOLEte_]

I think emulation provided plenty of tools to alleviate the more frustrating parts of difficult games.

Videogame difficulty is a meme. Just like guitar solos. Both are cool in a nerdy way, but taken too seriously it just becomes a bit pathetic.

 

[Evaccaneer Doom]

Is being hard what made many games good?

No

Is difficulty a sign of quality?

No

Are easier games worse?

No

Or is it a relic from another era?

No

Is this just a cheap way to make short games longer?

No

Are harder games more frustrating therefore less enjoyable?

And no

I can enjoy something as braindead easy as Shin Megami Tensei 2 as much as I can enjoy Ultrakill, failing to be a good game is usually in spite of it's difficulty and not because of it

The 7th Saga (talking only about localisation) is terrible not because they made it harder, but because in making it harder they never optimised it to be fun. Maten no Soumetsu is a terrible game because it's always a dice roll whether the enemy will be so strong you end up 1 shot, or if it'll be a normal scaled enemy. Mega Man Eternal is a genuinely terrible fangame that just isn't fun to play even in an ironic sense like Mega Man 42 or Mega Man Rocks. On the other side of the spectrum, modern Pokemon games give you too many handicaps. The lack of 6 party Pokemon teams, really bad gym leader movesets (especially bad in Kalos), and the slow phasing of any and all exploration and secret area findings. Truxton isn't that bad of a shmup, but it's BORIIIIIIIING due to how much empty space it has.

 

[nattybohman]

I've had a good time with both easy games and difficult games. One thing I never understand is why people get upset about the existence of an easy mode or easy mode being added without taking away the other more difficult options. More options always seems like a good thing to me.

 

[fake-kun]

I've had a good time with both easy games and difficult games. One thing I never understand is why people get upset about the existence of an easy mode or easy mode being added without taking away the other more difficult options. More options always seems like a good thing to me.

Elitism, plain and simple.

 

[moonbits]

To me, games have to provide a certain challenge but sometimes some people don't want challenge, just entertainment so it's difficult thing to balance nowadays. Most of my friends (30 year olds) do not play games in hard or even medium, they go straight to easy. I on the other hand, require challenge but that's because I'm an avid gamer.

Another thing I'd like to mention is learning curve, a lot of gamers do not have patience and this is primarily illustrated with the rise of Souls games and how they are perceived as "difficult" but once you get the hang of it, they can be a relatively challenging but enjoyable experience.

 

[Ikagura]

Sounds like you won't like Kirby games, then. /j

And even then Kirby had, since the first game, a harder post-game mode that will turn the game upside down and makes is much more challenging.

Sure, it's probably one of the harder Extra Mode in the series compared to most others but there's also the True Arena which is an interesting boss rush.

Hypocritical post incoming: as someone who has dark souls as their favorite, I could not stand the idea of “harder = good”. My least favorite souls entries are the ones that lean the most into difficultly like bloodborne. I only really like the main trilogy, and even then I don’t like DS3 as much as DS1 (DS2 is weird, it carries over a lot of great DS1 stuff, but it does not feel intentional at all, and can only be understood if you play it). I sincerely believe DS1 was not made with the idea of being difficult. Mysterious and enigmatic? Absolutely, but not necessarily “hard”, maybe some parts are intended to be challenging, but 9 times of ten it’s almost always supposed to be a “puzzle” or a DPS check. Or just a test of how much you explored the world.

I never seek difficulty in games. I cannot get into DMC for that reason although I plan to give it a second chance.

People (well, journalists) put Dark Souls as one of the hardest game despite that it's quite forgiving and with a good build you can basically run on it.