Streamlining Hell

[TechnologicalMF]

I'll admit this topic has quite a few hot takes but I just wanted to kind of vent out my frustration with streamlining and QoL in modern gaming.
I'll be using two games that fall in the MegaTen umbrella: Persona 3 and SMT Nocturne.

So basically, first off I'll start with Persona 3 (along with FES) vs Reload:

Original Tartarus exploration vs Reload
So my main gripe with the way Tartarus is handled in Reload is I feel like in an effort to make the experience more streamlined and less grueling, they have kind of ruined a lot of the appeal of the original Tartarus. First off, the hallways are too wide imo and avoiding shadows is too easy. On top of that the game doesn't really play with the lighting well (which I complained about even when we saw the first trailers) and it makes the whole experience feel less dangerous and creepy. It feels like the decision making in Tartarus of which path to take has been completely removed because hey, you can just avoid everything!

Time management mechanics/social sim
In the original Persona 3, characters would get tired after spending too much time in Tartarus, affecting their accuracy, evasion, and overall performance. If they pushed themselves too hard, they’d even get sick, which carried over to school days. The problem with this to me is the following: you are kind of stripping down a whole other part of the adventure and risk/reward of dungeon crawling.
Like, life isn't perfect and this game is part life-sim. Why would you strip down so much of a game's identity like this? Instead of completely removing it, what they should have done is expand it and make it better balanced.
Also, the complete removal of social links breaking and how hard it is to fuck up/reverse them I hate too.

SMT Nocturne original fusion vs HD Remaster
Ok now this one is spicy as hell lmao. So basically, I think the random inheritance system is better FOR NOCTURNE because it was balanced around it. Now technically, you can use it in the HD Remaster so it isn't as bad tbh, but I wanted to more so call out the players.
I see this sentiment that "well back in the day, you would just reload all the time!!" I mean yeah, but why would you do that though? Isn't it a more fun experience to play with what has been given to you and adapt? Nocturne is already made much easier when you know the tricks of the combat. The game was literally balanced with random inheritance in mind, you are basically just abusing it. This is why I'd love an SMT game with constant autosaving and overwriting like Dark Souls.

What are your thoughts on the intense streamlining in recent generations?

 

[KirboDeku]

This isn't QoL, this is just removing features. An actual example would be making a more efficient menu system or adding teleporting in a game that lacked it.

But anyway, as long as it saves time without dumbing down the game (or at the very least, make dumbing down the game optional), then I'm alright with QoL features.

 

[RustySK]

No sir, I don't like it.

Modern Pikmin eliminating time limits; modern Fire Emblem allowing you to grind until your heart's content; most modern RPGs fully healing you for no resource costs all the time (with good balancing this one can be a positive though); most dungeons letting you teleport home at any point (same for always-accessible quicktravel) and so on and so forth - it all dilutes the experience for the sake of convenience.

Which is an impulse I completely understand and that is also incredibly hard to argue with, since it boils down to a difference in mindset.

I want a game to demand that I sit down and dedicate myself to the experience and I want it to punish my mistakes, but many people want a game to entertain them while they relax - both are completely valid approaches!
The way I see it, convenience (and the desire for instant gratification) is at the core of that divide.

Restrictions never feel good at face value, be it in real life or in entertainment, but they are what can push a player to get truly invested and creative with an experience, not to mention that overcoming those restrictions is what makes success all the more satisfying.
Overwhelming convenience meanwhile can feel liberating and empowering at first, but will leave any experience with less of an edge to it, less of an impact, since it inherently means that a game pushes the player less, makes them work less for that sweet sweet endorphin rush of victory, even if only in minor ways - these things compound.

At least in my mind.

 

[Retroheck]

I agree this can be super frustrating. I can understand if someone who doesn't know anything about the series wants to jump in and might get intimidated, but it is those same intimidations that make the games timeless and worth trying. I have the same issue with the new Monster Hunter Wilds. While the game itself is fun especially for new fans, there is just so much stripped down to the point that you don't even hunt the monsters anymore, they just spawn right in front of you and you auto travel to them when they leave. While QoL features can be nice for some games, on others, such as these, the games just completely lose their identities for the sake of mass appeal.

 

[TechnologicalMF]

This isn't QoL, this is just removing features. An actual example would be making a more efficient menu system or adding teleporting in a game that lacked it.

But anyway, as long as it saves time without dumbing down the game (or at the very least, make dumbing down the game optional), then I'm alright with QoL features.

Ah yeah I think maybe my image doesn't exactly correlate that much with the topic itself as I went on more about streamlining via removed features, but my Nocturne example kind of goes into how in my eyes QoL can ruin the balance of a game

 

[fake-kun]

It makes "hardcore gamers" mad, so I like it.

 

[TechnologicalMF]

Like don't get me wrong, manual inheritance doesn't bother me in more modern MegaTen because its balanced with that IN MIND. With Nocturne though, its different to me.
It feels way too easy and doesn't ask me to be resourceful

Post automatically merged: Wednesday at 4:13 PM

It makes "hardcore gamers" mad, so I like it.

You revel in the chaos

 

[fake-kun]

You revel in the chaos

Considering my favorite character, that shouldn't be surprising.

 

[bjork]

In the case of a remake/remaster, the move is to never day one it, and let other people be the guinea pigs. If it turns out that it isn't something you'd be into, you just saved money and time.
As far as a series changing over time, I think that's to be expected nowadays in an industry that's more and more risk averse, sadly. But I like when it's at least optional, so if I don't want to play it the easy or hard way, I'm not forced into either.

 

[TechnologicalMF]

In the case of a remake/remaster, the move is to never day one it, and let other people be the guinea pigs. If it turns out that it isn't something you'd be into, you just saved money and time.
As far as a series changing over time, I think that's to be expected nowadays in an industry that's more and more risk averse, sadly. But I like when it's at least optional, so if I don't want to play it the easy or hard way, I'm not forced into either.

Tbh with P3R I actually played it with GamePass which I had for free then due to a friend lmao so luckily I spared all money.

Also yes, optional is great which is why I was less harsh on Nocturne. I don't mind how it did it, more so the players themselves. Especially players who went "wait this is the hard game you guys were hyping up?"

 

[Tonberry]

In the original Persona 3, characters would get tired after spending too much time in Tartarus, affecting their accuracy, evasion, and overall performance. If they pushed themselves too hard, they’d even get sick, which carried over to school days.

I don't like this particular feature because I don't want to be "punished" for wanting to grind, since I think grinding in RPGs is fun because it's usually the only time outside of the "wrap everything up endgame" I get to actually play the game.
It's a cool concept, and it fits mechanically with the style the game is going for, but I think it's kind of harsh.
That being said, I'd rather they "actually" streamline it, like you said, instead of just removing it altogether.

social links breaking

I don't like this system either, actually. And for the same reason, I don't like feeling arbitrarily punished for simply playing the game. P3 has bad dialogue options anyways because you always just tell the character what they want to hear in order to advance, which isn't realistic and stifles roleplaying, so I don't think them being able to break because of it kind of fits.

Totally agree with the SMT3 thing though.

 

[TechnologicalMF]

I don't like this particular feature because I don't want to be "punished" for wanting to grind, since I think grinding in RPGs is fun because it's usually the only time outside of the "wrap everything up endgame" I get to actually play the game.
It's a cool concept, and it fits mechanically with the style the game is going for, but I think it's kind of harsh.
That being said, I'd rather they "actually" streamline it, like you said, instead of just removing it altogether.


I don't like this system either, actually. And for the same reason, I don't like feeling arbitrarily punished for simply playing the game. P3 has bad dialogue options anyways because you always just tell the character what they want to hear in order to advance, which isn't realistic and stifles roleplaying, so I don't think them being able to break because of it kind of fits.

Totally agree with the SMT3 thing though.

Yeah I can see where you're coming from. To me I guess it is mainly the fact that it is a dungeon crawler and social sim hybrid, part of what made P3 (PS2) special to me was how it felt grounded in a lot of aspects with these systems so seeing it get streamlined to the point of the identity of the game being kind of ruined in my eyes it bothered me a lot.

This is without even going into art direction/music which have been talked about to death and wanted a more unique discussion as game design itself sometimes gets neglected with remake discussions

 

[KirboDeku]

Considering my favorite character, that shouldn't be surprising.

Bassed!

 

[fake-kun]

I don't like this particular feature because I don't want to be "punished" for wanting to grind, since I think grinding in RPGs is fun because it's usually the only time outside of the "wrap everything up endgame" I get to actually play the game.
It's a cool concept, and it fits mechanically with the style the game is going for, but I think it's kind of harsh.
That being said, I'd rather they "actually" streamline it, like you said, instead of just removing it altogether.


I don't like this system either, actually. And for the same reason, I don't like feeling arbitrarily punished for simply playing the game. P3 has bad dialogue options anyways because you always just tell the character what they want to hear in order to advance, which isn't realistic and stifles roleplaying, so I don't think them being able to break because of it kind of fits.

Totally agree with the SMT3 thing though.

Why would you try to roleplay in a JRPG? It's one of the least conducive genres for it.

 

[TechnologicalMF]

Why would you try to roleplay in a JRPG? It's one of the least conducive genres for it.

In JRPGs as a whole there is less roleplaying incentive yes, but Atlus games are unique in that I 100% get why they want to roleplay. The way they are written and programmed 100% encourage roleplaying more, Persona with the social links and how you use your time and SMT with its decision making and routes which honestly are done even better than a lot of western RPGs, like Nocturne with how the whole game is a huge test for who you are

 

[bjork]

I don't mind how it did it, more so the players themselves. Especially players who went "wait this is the hard game you guys were hyping up?"

The true answer is to not pay attention to other players.

 

[moonbits]

A bit muddled topic here.
Quality of life, design decisions or just downright removing something.

QoL: I appreciate being able to change items in real in The Ocarina of Time 3DS remake.

Design Desicion: Setting the Seikret as Automatic in MH Wilds
Quality of Life: You can freely adjust the Seikret's movement in the options menu

Removing: SMT3: Nocturne randum for the lulz skill inheretance.
If there's one thing players hate is being forced upon their choices, save scumming lol
I don't mind, I wish games were more relentless with this but that's just me.

 

[TechnologicalMF]

A bit muddled topic here.
Quality of life, design decisions or just downright removing something.

QoL: I appreciate being able to change items in real in The Ocarina of Time 3DS remake.

Design Desicion: Setting the Seikret as Automatic in MH Wilds
Quality of Life: You can freely adjust the Seikret's movement in the options menu

Removing: SMT3: Nocturne randum for the lulz skill inheretance.
If there's one thing players hate is being forced upon their choices, save scumming lol
I don't mind, I wish games were more relentless with this but that's just me.

True. See the thing is though, I hear people blindly say "streamlined" and "QoL" for a lot of remasters/remakes and they a lot of times have this tone like "yeah remember that stupid ass design choice? It's no longer there!" when it was really actually not that stupid and part of a game's balance. The problem is the shifting of player's mindset, not the game itself a lot of the time.
And then it kinda gives the devs an excuse to be lazy. Like why better and expand this, just remove it and make it more digsetible/streamlined.

Don't get why so many eat it up

 

[moonbits]

True. See the thing is though, I hear people blindly say "streamlined" and "QoL" for a lot of remasters/remakes and they a lot of times have this tone like "yeah remember that stupid ass design choice? It's no longer there!" when it was really actually not that stupid and part of a game's balance. The problem is the shifting of player's mindset, not the game itself a lot of the time.
And then it kinda gives the devs an excuse to be lazy. Like why better and expand this, just remove it and make it more digsetible/streamlined.

Don't get why so many eat it up

Oh yeah , I can agree 100% with that. This is not just devs, I also see gamers take it upon themselves to "fix" things that were never supposed to be fixed. "Seamless co-op easy mode Elden Ring mod" I will forever hate you.

 

[TechnologicalMF]

Because the thing is I feel like with Tartarus right a lot of people were like "yeah they made it better!"
But the thing is to me, I was confused as hell. How? All of the things I mentioned made it so braindead to me and I was playing on the hardest difficulty.

Like, I never felt engaged or at risk at any point and it was crazy. Not to mention that no gimmicks/puzzles were added and yeah I am confused as hell to this day what they did so much better?

 

[moonbits]

One Quality of Life feature that I quite despise though it's universally acclaimed is the guiding path/arrows in simulation/racing games. Just hold my hand will ya, just play the game for me.

 

[Evaccaneer Doom]

I like the arrows, sounds reasonable with a lot of world tour tracks and runs so that people don't go out of bounds. Also because I don't like thinking I going the right way only to see that the path is just a wall and having to go through the gruelling process of backing up.

What I've never been super fond of is all the licensed music. BOOOOOOO, I'm here for the interesting new shit not the 30th time I have to hear pop song #846 or recycled pop artist from the 90s. At least give me obscure music if anything.

 

[Tonberry]

Why would you try to roleplay in a JRPG? It's one of the least conducive genres for it.

That’s not true, it just depends on the game. And it’s a term with varying definitions anyway. Some use it only for dialogue, others use it more mechanically (do I want this character to be a fighter or a magic user? Which fits best? etc). Just depends on context.

In Persona specifically you always have several styles of dialogue choices made mainly to let you project a different kind of personality onto the main character, which makes them feel different for different people. P3 does a great job of this.

 

[moonbits]

I like the arrows, sounds reasonable with a lot of world tour tracks and runs so that people don't go out of bounds. Also because I don't like thinking I going the right way only to see that the path is just a wall and having to go through the gruelling process of backing up.

Part of the challenge is learning the track!!

 

[Tonberry]

One modern QoL thing I’m not a huge fan of is when leveling up automatically fills up your HP and MP. It makes dungeon crawling less risky.

However a modern QoL thing I DO like that feeds into that is when games have those ”quick heal” button in the menus. It’s just convenient and economical for your MP.