I think Sonic 3 & Knuckles is weaker. For one Sonic 3 & K is just Sonic the Hedgehog 1 & 2 Again. Has the same level themes (2 grass levels, underground water level, ruin level, theme park level if you consider a casino a theme park for adults, base level, airship level, cave level, space level), its easier, adds more stuff that barely amounts to anything.
Remember, two halves of the same game. Don't consider them separately. Of course the differences will be minimal. If you were forced to buy 2 carts to play CV4 entirely, it would be the same problem.
Repeated level themes are nothing new, it's just easier to notice by the third rodeo.
Yea theres mini bosses and too be honest how many of them are actually good? I always remember the lumberjack boss where it just throws logs in a set pattern instead of throwing them directly at the character. Bonus Stages that you only use just to get shields and rings even tho Sonic 3 & K is easy. I feel like people just like the novelty of the game just because you can use the Sonic & Knuckles cart on Sonic 1 & 2. Its neat but thats just it, its neat.
I am one of those people that don't think the game is that amazing, I prefer Sonic the Hedgehog 2. Everytime I hear people talk about Sonic 3&K they always brag about how the story telling through stuff in the background is the best and I don't get it. Ok they tell the story in the background whats the big deal, am I missing something or not seeing what people see?
I'm not sure I've necessarily heard this argument before, but I assume it's based on a few things.
- The Death Egg appears in the background of several stages, such as being built and launching off in Launch Base Zone and being crashed underground (and reactivating, causing the stage to turn to magma) in Lava Reef Zone
- A prominent mural is shown behind Sonic and Knuckles during their fight in Hidden Palace Zone, which shows Doomsday Zone
- The Hyper Emerald room you visit seems to be just a mysterious room, until you actually run through it in Hidden Palace Zone
There's probably a few others you can consider, like enemies you'll encounter later in the level flying in the background of Angel Hill (and I think Sky Sanctuary?)
The thing that annoyed me the most about Sonic 3 is that the game was launched unfinished and you couldn't experience the full story without Sonic and Knuckles.
The thing that annoyed me the most about Sonic 3 is that the game was launched unfinished and you couldn't experience the full story without Sonic and Knuckles.
I am one of those people that don't think the game is that amazing, I prefer Sonic the Hedgehog 2. Everytime I hear people talk about Sonic 3&K they always brag about how the story telling through stuff in the background is the best and I don't get it. Ok they tell the story in the background whats the big deal, am I missing something or not seeing what people see?
The storytelling in Classic Sonic games is pretty great. It's always about going from nature to a scientific nightmare to face off against Robotnik. It always starts in a Green Hill esque zone with dancing flowers and palm trees and ends in a factory or the Death Egg or a battle against a giant robot of some kind. Sonic 3 and Knuckles gets most of the love because a lot of stuff happens between levels as you play the game. You have Sonic in his Super form from the last game Sonic 2 with his new buddy Tails in the Tornado as they fly to the island to get hit by Knuckles who knocks the emeralds out of Sonic and runs off with them. Every step of the way Knuckles sets up traps for Sonic and Tails and trolls them. Then we come to the scene where Robotnik betrays Knuckles to steal the Master Emerald and we find out Knuckles isn't a bad guy at all. Then he helps Sonic and Tails get to Robotnik for revenge. Then if you get all the Chaos Emeralds and Super Emeralds you can go Hyper and fight Robotnik in space for the Master Emerald. Sonic flies the Master Emerald back and Knuckles carries it home. Sonic 3 and Knuckles has more story to it than Sonic 1 and 2 combined. As for gameplay, it's better. You have some new moves like the spin attack in mid air that doubles as a shield. Tails can fly on command too. You can even use Tails to carry Sonic. It's the best one. Tails can go Super and Knuckles can even go Hyper. You have a save feature. You have better Emerald stages (although i still love the half pipe!)
I've always enjoyed S2 over S3&K but I am 100% willing to admit its for highly subjective reasons.
I always just found the visuals and music more memorable in 2. Though I did like that 3 had some brief cutscenes throughout, but 2 mostly only has an ending one.
I've always enjoyed S2 over S3&K but I am 100% willing to admit its for highly subjective reasons.
I always just found the visuals and music more memorable in 2. Though I did like that 3 had some brief cutscenes throughout, but 2 mostly only has an ending one.
Sonic the Hedgehog 2 just pops. I think the visuals being simplistic works better, Sonic 3 & K just looks gritty and Sonic looking like Mickey Mouse. Sonic the Hedgehog 2 soundtrack is better because every track just fits the zones, yea there are great music in Sonic 3 & K but its kinda muted compared with 2. Like compare the title theme, level clear theme, special stage theme and definitely the invincibility theme and you'll see which is better.
The games are different, sure, but I don't think 3K is weaker than 2 by any real objective metric, subjectivity aside. They are both equally great for me.
That said, S2 was released on a smaller cart and much of the planned content was either cut or repurposed. I'd love t9 see a fully realized Sonic 2, for sure.
The thing that annoyed me the most about Sonic 3 is that the game was launched unfinished and you couldn't experience the full story without Sonic and Knuckles.
The games are different, sure, but I don't think 3K is weaker than 2 by any real objective metric, subjectivity aside. They are both equally great for me.
That said, S2 was released on a smaller cart and much of the planned content was either cut or repurposed. I'd love t9 see a fully realized Sonic 2, for sure.
I think Sonic 3 & Knuckles is weaker. For one Sonic 3 & K is just Sonic the Hedgehog 1 & 2 Again. Has the same level themes (2 grass levels, underground water level, ruin level, theme park level if you consider a casino a theme park for adults, base level, airship level, cave level, space level), its easier, adds more stuff that barely amounts to anything. Yea theres mini bosses and too be honest how many of them are actually good? I always remember the lumberjack boss where it just throws logs in a set pattern instead of throwing them directly at the character. Bonus Stages that you only use just to get shields and rings even tho Sonic 3 & K is easy. I feel like people just like the novelty of the game just because you can use the Sonic & Knuckles cart on Sonic 1 & 2. Its neat but thats just it, its neat.
To throw my hat in the ring, I think the title of “storytelling” is misleading. Classic example of Sonic fans saying one thing and meaning another (momentum, anyone?), it’s more a matter of “scenario”.
Sonic 3 is a game where things matter. You’re not just in a “level”, but rather a world. You see clearly in several shots what the floating Island looks like, which is detailed to have a couple locations visible, and your brain fills in the rest, connecting the dots together as you go. Because there is an actual game world, the events of the game have stakes. And it bleeds into the gameplay as well: Sonic 3 is not as fast as Sonic 2. That’s a GOOD THING. It’s still fast, but it’s up to you to determine the pace. The level isn’t going to naturally force you forward too often, because you can always explore if you want to. The special stages are set up to support this too, with the rings being one use secrets scattered throughout the levels. While Sonic 2’s checkpoint system was much the same thing, they were more on the main path because Sonic 2 isn’t about exploration as much as it’s about raw speed, so EVERYWHERE is the main path. Sonic 3 has these things in walls and floors and behind breakable objects and such.
And, back to the actual story, it’s just nice that it’s there. And it can tell you a lot about how these characters, especially Knuckles, are by simply how they move. I would like to say, and I’ve always felt this, I wish Eggman emoted more. As the main villain, I’d like to feel is insane malice more, but I have to wrap back around to how Knuckles moves. Even in gameplay, Sonic and Tails are a team. A big thing this game has that 2 does not is the team up air carry, which comes in even if you never use it, but it’s something you can always do by simply plugging a second controller in (the Sonic Origins version makes it a button combo on the single player controller, which is way better). Alternatively, Knuckles doesn’t have that. He’s always in these little alcoves and even when you play as him, his levels tend to have these sections of cramped space. Loneliness. He doesn’t have anybody to help him out, and you feel that. It’s a little thing, but it subconsciously adds to the moments when Sonic works with him throughout both the Sonic and Knuckles runs.
And, a final note, 3 is not meant to be binged. You can, and I do a lot, but that’s because I’m very familiar with it. The saving system was put there for a reason. This is an adventure that you can, and should, play in pieces. If you play from beginning to end without exploring, I totally get why this game would be a lesser experience to you, but that’s also the issue people have with Sonic CD. Sonic CD is NOT meant to be binged or ran through either! But, 3 flows way better than CD did because it also had the Sonic 2 team on it. So, you end up with this game where you explore every nook and cranny, while the level can easily be your little skate park to do cool tricks and skips in, WHILE the game has a massive step up in presentation all around you.
Play Sonic 3 & Knuckles. It’s a good game :)
Post automatically merged:
(I saw this thread yesterday morning, but it took until today for me to compose myself properly to give a good explanation. If anything, I have to thank OP for getting me to mentally explore why my favorite game ever is… well, my favorite game ever! Even with the massive essay I just wrote, I don’t think I got everything.
Cliffnotes: I like how the world matters, I think the aesthetic is sick, I like to explore my levels as much as I enjoy zipping through them and I like to be allowed to choose when to do that, and I just love the levels in this game and naturally want to spend time in them.)
To throw my hat in the ring, I think the title of “storytelling” is misleading. Classic example of Sonic fans saying one thing and meaning another (momentum, anyone?), it’s more a matter of “scenario”.
Sonic 3 is a game where things matter. You’re not just in a “level”, but rather a world. You see clearly in several shots what the floating Island looks like, which is detailed to have a couple locations visible, and your brain fills in the rest, connecting the dots together as you go. Because there is an actual game world, the events of the game have stakes. And it bleeds into the gameplay as well: Sonic 3 is not as fast as Sonic 2. That’s a GOOD THING. It’s still fast, but it’s up to you to determine the pace. The level isn’t going to naturally force you forward too often, because you can always explore if you want to. The special stages are set up to support this too, with the rings being one use secrets scattered throughout the levels. While Sonic 2’s checkpoint system was much the same thing, they were more on the main path because Sonic 2 isn’t about exploration as much as it’s about raw speed, so EVERYWHERE is the main path. Sonic 3 has these things in walls and floors and behind breakable objects and such.
I would say immersive to a extent, like Lava Reef where you see the face of the Death Egg faraway in the background then fall into the boss area and all of a sudden the face is closer...thats not how it works. Sonic 1 & 2 always had exploration where you find things in the walls and breakable objects (Green Hill Zone) to find rings for the Chaos Emeralds. The exploration in Sonic 1, 2, 3, K & CD are all the same.
And, back to the actual story, it’s just nice that it’s there. And it can tell you a lot about how these characters, especially Knuckles, are by simply how they move. I would like to say, and I’ve always felt this, I wish Eggman emoted more. As the main villain, I’d like to feel is insane malice more, but I have to wrap back around to how Knuckles moves. Even in gameplay, Sonic and Tails are a team. A big thing this game has that 2 does not is the team up air carry, which comes in even if you never use it, but it’s something you can always do by simply plugging a second controller in (the Sonic Origins version makes it a button combo on the single player controller, which is way better). Alternatively, Knuckles doesn’t have that. He’s always in these little alcoves and even when you play as him, his levels tend to have these sections of cramped space. Loneliness. He doesn’t have anybody to help him out, and you feel that. It’s a little thing, but it subconsciously adds to the moments when Sonic works with him throughout both the Sonic and Knuckles runs.
Sonic Origins wasn't the first to have that button combo even then why would someone go outta there way to use a second controller to carry Sonic when you don't really need it? Don't get that Loneliness thing you're talking about, does Knuckles really need someone to traverse an island that he is a native to?
And, a final note, 3 is not meant to be binged. You can, and I do a lot, but that’s because I’m very familiar with it. The saving system was put there for a reason. This is an adventure that you can, and should, play in pieces. If you play from beginning to end without exploring, I totally get why this game would be a lesser experience to you, but that’s also the issue people have with Sonic CD. Sonic CD is NOT meant to be binged or ran through either! But, 3 flows way better than CD did because it also had the Sonic 2 team on it. So, you end up with this game where you explore every nook and cranny, while the level can easily be your little skate park to do cool tricks and skips in, WHILE the game has a massive step up in presentation all around you.
You had to binged playing Sonic 1 & 2 because of the lack of save feature so why does it matter how if I binged Sonic 3 & K or not? As a guy who has 100% Sonic 3 & K with all three characters you only explore for the Chaos Emeralds and thats it, Sonic 3 & K is an easy game. Its not like the previous Sonic games where you explore for a shield so you can prep for a section so you don't end up losing rings for the Special Stages. Also this Sonic 3 & K doesn't really encourage you to explore especially when you realized they still have the Times Up gimmick, Sonic is a fast character therefore you're just gonna go as fast as you can to the end of the level instead.
Play Sonic 3 & Knuckles. It’s a good game :)
(I saw this thread yesterday morning, but it took until today for me to compose myself properly to give a good explanation. If anything, I have to thank OP for getting me to mentally explore why my favorite game ever is… well, my favorite game ever! Even with the massive essay I just wrote, I don’t think I got everything.
Cliffnotes: I like how the world matters, I think the aesthetic is sick, I like to explore my levels as much as I enjoy zipping through them and I like to be allowed to choose when to do that, and I just love the levels in this game and naturally want to spend time in them.)
Usually I like when a game has something and theres a point to it. Sonic 3 & Knuckles is a neat game but it has stuff that isn't really needed. Everytime you brought up exploration I'm reminded of Sonic Adventure 1 (another simple Sonic game) where oh "in Final Egg theres a platform that slowly descends and if you go on it it'll take you to some extra lives". But who cares because when you get there you have to wait a couple minutes so you can jump on it when you can just turn to the right and just finished the level. Yea you might need them for the Egg Viper but in actuality you don't because Sonic Adventure 1 is inconsequential, when you Game Over you're back where you were IF you really suck which shouldn't be a possibility because Sonic Adventure 1 is an easy game. I may not have grew up with Sonic 3 & Knuckles but heres my point, sometimes less is more. Maybe they should of spend time putting the carry mechanic on the first controller C button instead of stealing the Gunstar Hero flame sprite.
I do agree, but at least at the time, the Japanese fanbase largely did not; lo and behold, Sonic CD.
Sonic 2 hugely important because it really helped solidify the franchise's identity in the minds of the public at large.
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