Rogue-like, Metroidvania and Souls-like genres

[Ikagura]

I've been thinking a bit and I'm still wondering why we're naming genres about pre-existing games or between two existing franchises?

Especially when Souls-like are still fundamentally Action RPG (with a stamina bar management) and Castlevania stopped being a Metroidvania for a decade at least.

I think that they could fade out like the term Doom-like/Quake-like and even GTA-like to a lesser extent. Crime Simulation sounds better.

Maybe Platformer/Exploration would work for the Metroidvania genre? As for SoulBorne/Soulslike ARPG with stamina or dark souls influenced would be more apt.

 

[RanmyakuIchi's iconRanmyakuIchi]

Soulslike's are a bit hard to categorize, as a bunch of small gameplay mechanics make them occupy that awkward "same, but different" territory. I've heard "MRPG" as in "Masochist Role Playing Game" before, but I don't care for it.

 

[trickybus]

Especially when Souls-like are still fundamentally Action RPG

From what I understand, 'Souls-like' became the de facto description because gaming journalists popularized it as the new 'Nintendo Hard'. It's less a description of the game's themes, aesthetic, or mechanics and more a comment on perceived difficulty.

Take Ender Lilies for example. I've seen more people refer to is as a Metroidvania (which it is) than a 2D Souls-like despite the fact that it very much takes inspiration from Dark Souls in regards to aesthetic, certain mechanics, and boss designs.

Ultimately, when the conversation shifted to focusing on difficulty over every other trait, that's when the Souls-like tag really took off.

 

[Ikagura]

Soulslike's are a bit hard to categorize, as a bunch of small gameplay mechanics make them occupy that awkward "same, but different" territory. I've heard "MRPG" as in "Masochist Role Playing Game" before, but I don't care for it.

Yeah but let's be honest with ourselves:

The Souls series has not invented the concept. It's the spiritual successor to King's Field and this was based on older PC dungeon crawlers.

MRPG as in Methodical Role Playing Game could work.

From what I understand, 'Souls-like' became the de facto description because gaming journalists popularized it as the new 'Nintendo Hard'. It's less a description of the game's themes, aesthetic, or mechanics and more a comment on perceived difficulty.

Take Ender Lilies for example. I've seen more people refer to is as a Metroidvania (which it is) than a 2D Souls-like despite the fact that it is very much takes inspiration from Dark Souls in regards to aesthetic, certain mechanics, and boss designs.

Ultimately, when the conversation shifted to focusing on difficulty over every other trait, that's when the Souls-like tag really took off.

So technically it means that any hard games are "the dark souls of" de jure thanks to these journos?

And I'll throw yet another hot take but Dark Souls is far from being that hard when you know what to do. You don't have limited lives nor time and you can always use summons and specific builds to advance in the game.

 

[kokonatsu17234]

the reason the term souls like exist is not just due to its stamina management, and you're right it is an action RPG but what makes it a bit different from typical action RPGs is extreme difficulty, limited hand holding, punishing death penalties, and obviously head rolls can't have a souls-like without head rolls that abuse I frames.
it's these factors what makes it into a "souls-like"
i've heard of doom-like/quake-like but this is the first time i've heard of the term GTA-like.
it's better to think of them as sub-genre rather than being the main genre itself.

 

[Ikagura]

the reason the term souls like exist is not just due to its stamina management, and you're right it is an action RPG but what makes it a bit different from typical action RPGs is extreme difficulty, limited hand holding, punishing death penalties, and obviously head rolls can't have a souls-like without head rolls that abuse I frames.
it's these factors what makes it into a "souls-like"

Then Ys games are Souls-like? Not the more recent ones but the franchise had some quite challenging games (especially Oath in Felghana and the older ones with the bump system).

As said above I still think that Dark Souls games are not as hard as we're pretending they are.

I've heard of doom-like/quake-like but this is the first time I've heard of the term GTA-like.

It was prominent in the early-00's but faded out quite quickly in the middle of the 7th gen.

 

[trickybus]

So technically it means that any hard games are "the dark souls of" de jure thanks to these journos?

Pretty much, and their audiences ate it up. I remember playing Monster Hunter: World the first few weeks after it landed and ran into more than a few players who compared it to Dark Souls. Like, bruh, just because there are dragons and you can roll dodge doesn't make it like goddamn Dark Souls.

Editing to add that Cuphead also got the 'iTs daRK SoUls haRD' treatment shortly after launch.

 

[Elwiwi]

Pretty much, and their audiences ate it up. I remember playing Monster Hunter: World the first few weeks after it landed and ran into more than a few players who compared it to Dark Souls. Like, bruh, just because there are dragons and you can roll dodge doesn't make it like goddamn Dark Souls.

Editing to add that Cuphead also got the 'iTs daRK SoUls haRD' treatment shortly after launch.

I swear souls fans are annoying as hell with the " it's like dark souls" in games were you can roll and have a sword

 

[RanmyakuIchi's iconRanmyakuIchi]

MRPG as in Methodical Role Playing Game could work.

Huh, I actually kinda like it. This works really well for Demons Souls or Dark Souls 1, but Elden Ring or Nioh?

I once heard someone use the term "Grounded Action" to refer to Bloodborne and Nioh, as in, you don't leave the ground like in DMC or Ninja Gaiden. "Grounded Action RPG" maybe?

 

[fake-kun]

The Adventure genre is named after Colossal Cave Adventure, and everybody's fine with it.

I think complaints about how we name video game genres are pointless and petty.

 

[Ikagura]

I swear souls fans are annoying as hell with the "it's like dark souls" in games were you can roll and have a sword.

Honestly the reason I got into the first Dark Souls on PC (yes I know) was because when I saw a streamer I liked playing it I was like "oh nice, this reminds me of Phantasy Star Online but in a fantasy setting".

I've read that Demon's Souls took some inspiration from Monster Hunter (or at least got some elements from modern ARPGs) and the later took inspiration from PSO.

Huh, I actually kinda like it. This works really well for Demons Souls or Dark Souls 1, but Elden Ring or Nioh?

I once heard someone use the term "Grounded Action" to refer to Bloodborne and Nioh, as in, you don't leave the ground like in DMC or Ninja Gaiden. "Grounded Action RPG" maybe?

This sounds genius. Aerial actions are what separates pure hack 'n slash/3D beat'em ups from Dark Souls and others.

The Adventure genre is named after Colossal Cave Adventure, and everyone's fine with it.

Wasn't there an Atari 2600 game called Adventure that was the inspiration for Zelda?

I'm quite glad that Action/Adventure kinda replaced "Zelda-like" because it would've been a bit too reductive.

I think complaints about how we name video game genres are pointless and petty.

Pointless maybe? No petty to question how we're naming things.

That's why we're using specific names for species on top of vernacular.

 

[kokonatsu17234]

Then Ys games are Souls-like? Not the more recent ones but the franchise had some quite challenging games (especially Oath in Felghana and the older ones with the bump system).

As said above I still think that Dark Souls games are not as hard as we're pretending they are.


It was prominent in the early-00's but faded out quite quickly in the middle of the 7th gen.

nope since Ys has always been Ys and if we're talking about the old games then it should be called Ys like

but yes dark souls in a sense is "easy" if you know what dark souls is or have already played it
personally, for me and I'm sure this is the same for almost everyone who played dark souls, but dark souls is not hard nor it is easy but instead challenging, its only hard if you think it's going to be hard
it's the kind of game where if you know what you're doing or knows how the game is played or work then it's just going to be challenging.
and also, yes "souls-like" isn't exactly an original concept since its origin came from king's field
but the thing they took from it is the punishing difficulty of it not with gameplay but with punishing traps like floors suddenly giving out instantly killing you or entering the room and being surrounded by summoned skeletons. gameplay is still hard but that just because the controls is pretty ass ngl, from that point it was adopted by shadow tower, then comes in the souls like we know or better yet that father of souls-like demon's souls.

 

[RanmyakuIchi's iconRanmyakuIchi]

I think complaints about how we name video game genres are pointless and petty.

I kinda agree. We haven't been using "Metroidvania" or "Soulslike" for only 2 or 3 months at this point. The English language is not static, words and terms take on new meaning. I find the connection to named franchises somewhat inconsequential.

I'm not against using new terms like "Exploration Platformer", and if It's a better term, I'll embrace it. I'm just not that worried about it.

 

[kokonatsu17234]

Pretty much, and their audiences ate it up. I remember playing Monster Hunter: World the first few weeks after it landed and ran into more than a few players who compared it to Dark Souls. Like, bruh, just because there are dragons and you can roll dodge doesn't make it like goddamn Dark Souls.

Editing to add that Cuphead also got the 'iTs daRK SoUls haRD' treatment shortly after launch.

yeah, the term souls-like became somewhat of a joke within the gaming community because the term itself started from journalist so, whenever there's a hard game everyone pretty much agrees as a joke that it is a souls-like because it's hard.
later after that the term itself became a sub genre for games that adopts various aspects of what makes a souls game a souls game.
the same way metroidvania became a thing.

 

[trickybus]

I kinda agree. We haven't been using "Metroidvania" or "Soulslike" for only 2 or 3 months at this point. The English language is not static, words and terms take on new meaning. I find the connection to named franchises somewhat inconsequential.

And I don't expect it to be static but for a word to have value, it needs to convey an idea in a clear matter to as many people as possible. If Souls-like becomes synonymous with 'difficult', the term becomes meaningless because we already have terms used to describe difficulty. Plus, it ends up ignoring all the other factors that make a game like Dark Souls.

 

[kokonatsu17234]

I swear souls fans are annoying as hell with the " it's like dark souls" in games were you can roll and have a sword

lol, its a joke within the community but sadly i somewhat agree with you since there are people out there who actually says ironically. the "It's like Dark Souls" is pretty much the same as "is that a jojo reference" meme

 

[ciro64]

This thread is the Dark Souls of metroidvanias.

 

[Elwiwi]

This thread is the Dark Souls of metroidvanias.

This thread is the Stardew valley of dark souls

 

[kokonatsu17234]

This thread is the Dark Souls of metroidvanias.

Post automatically merged: Feb 17, 2025

This thread is the Stardew valley of dark souls

reaction farm?

 

[RanmyakuIchi's iconRanmyakuIchi]

This thread is the Dark Souls of metroidvanias.

This is the real answer!

And I don't expect it to be static but for a word to have value, it needs to convey an idea in a clear matter to as many people as possible. If Souls-like becomes synonymous with 'difficult', the term becomes meaningless because we already have terms used to describe difficulty. Plus, it ends up ignoring all the other factors that make a game like Dark Souls.

I agree with you, but truth be told, I'm having a hard time thinking of a Soulsborne that doesn't use difficulty as a key point. I wonder if Soulsborne are the "Spiced Cherry Vanilla Coke" of videogames, a flavour so specific that they're hard to label easily.

 

[trickybus]

This thread is the Dark Souls of metroidvanias.

Same energy

 

[fake-kun]

My main problem with people trying to reinvent the wheel and create new names for these genres is that the replacements usually oversimplify their characteristics to the point of describing otherwise completely unrelated games, and thus are completely useless.

Take, for example, the "Exploration Platformer" label that @RanmyakuIchi mentioned as an alternative to Metroidvania. Taken at face value, it would perfectly describe Mega Man X for SNES, as it's a platformer with exploration elements. Of course, in reality, Metroidvanias aren't defined by these two characteristics alone.

In the end, the names of video game genres are arbitrary and exist to communicate ideas. If gamers decide that Metroidvania or Rogue-like or whatever is fine, then so be it.

I'm quite glad that Action/Adventure kinda replaced "Zelda-like" because it would've been a bit too reductive.

I couldn't disagree more. I believe Action/Adventure is a useless term because it gets applied to pretty much every game that doesn't fit into any other genre, rendering it meaningless. Thus, labeling a game "Action/Adventure" communicates far less about the experience it delivers compared to "Zelda-like."

 

[RanmyakuIchi's iconRanmyakuIchi]

In the end, the names of video game genres are arbitrary and exist to communicate ideas. If gamers decide that Metroidvania or Rogue-like or whatever are fine, then so be it.

This. You pretty much nailed it on the head. Trying to apply hyper-specific labels to a media that exists on a gradient feels pedantic when most players don't have trouble with the current naming conventions. No need to reinvent a round wheel.

 

[Prism_Red]

I really HATE the term 'souls-like' to define hard action rpg, we got Ninja Gaiden for that years before and these dumb journalists slept on it.

 

[Evaccaneer Doom]

I've been thinking a bit and I'm still wondering why we're naming genres about pre-existing games or between two existing franchises?

Especially when Souls-like are still fundamentally Action RPG (with a stamina bar management) and Castlevania stopped being a Metroidvania for a decade at least.

I think that they could fade out like the term Doom-like/Quake-like and even GTA-like to a lesser extent. Crime Simulation sounds better.

Maybe Platformer/Exploration would work for the Metroidvania genre? As for SoulBorne/Soulslike ARPG with stamina or dark souls influenced would be more apt.

I just tend to not really care, especially given how certain old genres are named after obscure games (Rogue like/lite)
I think there's room for more honestly, cause if for example the style of SMT ever took off "2D/3D Dungeon Crawler, possibly Monster Collecting JRPG that may or may not have an emphasis on buffing and debuffing" ain't gonna do it for people, they'll just call it an SMT-like or a MegaTen-like

Post automatically merged: Feb 17, 2025

I couldn't disagree more. I believe Action/Adventure is a useless term because it gets applied to pretty much every game that doesn't fit into any other genre, rendering it meaningless. Thus, labeling a game "Action/Adventure" communicates far less about the experience it delivers compared to "Zelda-like."

I agree, in fact hot take, Action RPG is in the same boat because when you think about it, what even IS an action RPG?

old Ys games are ARPG
Yakuza is an ARPG
Tales is an ARPG
Custom Robo is an ARPG
Vanillaware's older games are ARPG

and yet

Zelda isn't an ARPG
MadWorld isn't an ARPG
old Final Fantasy (meaning 1-6) aren't ARPGs
Armored Core isn't an ARPG
Mega Man Zero isn't an ARPG

Anything can be considered an ARPG, that's how vague the definition is. Racing Lagoon is an Action RPG